Unsolved Taman Shud Case

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BlueE

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#77
You have raised some interesting topics.

There have been a few different DNA angles used by the researchers. Firstly, there are currently two teams facing off in a race to gain useable DNA from the stray hairs found on TSM’s cast. There could be a breakthrough any day or potentially not at all. A 2018 article that provides details on this DNA dual can be read here: https://www.cnet.com/news/solving-the-somerton-man-mystery-australias-most-baffling-cold-case/

The second approach involved examining the DNA of Robin’s relatives. Robin was cremated in 2009 and therefore researchers have had to construct his phased DNA. Robin’s partner, Roma, had her DNA taken and I assume Rachel (although it has only been explicitly stated as a “living descendant”) also had their DNA taken. By subtracting Roma’s DNA from the living descendant DNA (most likely Rachel’s) some data has been gained. The best article about this is here: https://phys.org/news/2015-06-years-forensic-somerton-identity-mystery_1.html

The Otis Pearce (or Pierce) connection you mention is an interesting one. There seem to be some arguments for and against him being TSM.

I also found the size of The Rubaiyat very interesting as in my head I had always imagined it as a larger book. I’ve had the code printed out and stuck on my wall on an A4 piece of paper oblivious to the actual quite small page and lettering.

Thanks for this info! I wasn’t aware of this further connection with the Beaumont case but it is quite intriguing. As I wrote in my article, I think it’s unlikely that TSM is the man in the photo but if it indeed is, the mystery would be elevated to a new level with the potential Beaumont connection. I’m going to have to do some reading of Ruth’s reddit comments.
Last thing I want to do is get in between two conflicting groups. Not sure how that happened. I've just come across this case on bf along with others from Adelaide that I'd heard nothing about, but may have strange connections with each other.

The recent publicity over crimes being solved in the US with ancestry collected DNA and familial connections leaves a pathway for solving his identity. The best way would be to get usable DNA from his body if that is possible. I don't think it would take long to get confirmation from the genetic information from Robin's relatives.

I didn't mention the "autopsy photo" as it seems to be someone completely different and doesn't match the coroners written description of a 5'11" blonde athletic man. Was it him who also mentioned "the other body".

The mention by Max McIntyre's daughter Ruth was out of the blue and I'm sure she wasn't looking for connections. His other daughter, (Ruth's half sister) has recently given a comprehensive statement to an International Court for Sexual Abuse from Max McIntyre. (Edit added link)

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...n-trafficking-and-child-sexual-abuse.1203467/
McIntyre seemed to have a level of protection that never saw him investigated in relation to the Beaumont children and with the mysterious death of his first wife, makes the claims of his children of what he was involved in believable in my opinion.

So the Reynolds ID, looking like the "autopsy photo" a fake, part of a cover up by some at a higher level than police?
 
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BlueE

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So I did, apologies.
So Otis Pearce (Pierce) was born December 1912. Would have been 25/26 during the tour. Flew from England to Australia with Anton Dolin in Sept 1938 for the Ballet Russe 1938/38 Australian and NZ tour.
Dolin wrote: “I was the first person in the world of theatre to fly, in September 1938, from London to Australia. We stayed in Amsterdam the first night and the real flight by KLM began from there. The schedule was to get up at dawn each morning and fly for between twelve and fifteen hours a day, for six days”.
(The plane was a KNILM Super-Electra airliner). ...

The Ballets Russes’ tour ended in Adelaide but the principal artists, including Dolin, travelled back to Sydney for a midnight farewell performance at the Theatre Royal on 27 April, 1939.

Among the ballets performed was a scene from Swan Lake in which Pearce made his first, and possibly his last, stage appearance.

In his book on the Theatre Royal, Ian Bevan described Pearce’s role as “the gesturing but non dancing Evil Genius”.

Pearce’s name is listed in the program as “a dancer”.

Most of the principal artists, along with Pearce, sailed from Australia to Los Angeles on the luxury liner, the SS Monterey.

World War II was just over four months away.

Dolin’s days with de Basil’s Ballets Russes were over.

In 1940, in the United States, Dolin joined the new company, Ballet Theatre (now American Ballet Theatre), where he remained until 1946.

What happened to Otis Pearce?
http://dancelines.com.au/tracing-path-mystery-man-ballets-russes-australia/

Seems a good cover for a spy, travelling with a Russian Ballet. Leaving for LA months before the war started in 1939, but no information on him during the war years.
 
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#79
So Otis Pearce (Pierce) was born December 1912. Would have been 25/26 during the tour. Flew from England to Australia with Anton Dolin in Sept 1938 for the Ballet Russe 1938/38 Australian and NZ tour.
Dolin wrote: “I was the first person in the world of theatre to fly, in September 1938, from London to Australia. We stayed in Amsterdam the first night and the real flight by KLM began from there. The schedule was to get up at dawn each morning and fly for between twelve and fifteen hours a day, for six days”.
(The plane was a KNILM Super-Electra airliner). ...

The Ballets Russes’ tour ended in Adelaide but the principal artists, including Dolin, travelled back to Sydney for a midnight farewell performance at the Theatre Royal on 27 April, 1939.

Among the ballets performed was a scene from Swan Lake in which Pearce made his first, and possibly his last, stage appearance.

In his book on the Theatre Royal, Ian Bevan described Pearce’s role as “the gesturing but non dancing Evil Genius”.

Pearce’s name is listed in the program as “a dancer”.

Most of the principal artists, along with Pearce, sailed from Australia to Los Angeles on the luxury liner, the SS Monterey.

World War II was just over four months away.

Dolin’s days with de Basil’s Ballets Russes were over.

In 1940, in the United States, Dolin joined the new company, Ballet Theatre (now American Ballet Theatre), where he remained until 1946.

What happened to Otis Pearce?
http://dancelines.com.au/tracing-path-mystery-man-ballets-russes-australia/

Seems a good cover for a spy, travelling with a Russian Ballet. Leaving for LA months before the war started in 1939, but no information on him during the war years.
There were a few things about the body that led me to further research:
(1) He was suntanned to the groin but not on the upper body. I have found photos of some Ballet Russes members dancing on Bungan Beach in Australia in the late 30's .... the men wore underwear and shirts. A lot earlier I know, but habits may die hard with dancers.
(2) He had the calves of a ballet dancer. Quote Paul Lawson, the taxidermist who completed the bust.
(3) He had peculiarly wedged feet (Paul Lawson again). I have images of ballet dancers' feet and what point work does to their toes. They are wedge-shaped.
(4) He had heavy metal traces in his hair. Ballet dancers use makeup containing heavy metals.
(5) There was an unidentified black powder found on the brush in his suitcase. Ballet dancers use rosin powder, and in times of short supply of the best rosin, a darker powder is used.
(6) Ballet runs in the Thomson family, Robin was a successful dancer.

All very circumstantial, I know, but very hard to ignore.
 
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#80
I quote from the deposition made by Gordon Strapps, a witness who saw the body on the evening of 30 November 1948: 'I should say he had brown striped trousers on.'
The body found in the same place the following morning was wearing faun-brown trousers.
Two men. One of them murdered and carried to the Bickford Terrace steps by persons unknown. A murdered man connected to Jessica Thomson.
Perhaps this is an indication as to why the SA government does not wish to pursue the matter .... old secrets are best kept as old secrets.
 

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BlueE

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There were a few things about the body that led me to further research:
(1) He was suntanned to the groin but not on the upper body. I have found photos of some Ballet Russes members dancing on Bungan Beach in Australia in the late 30's .... the men wore underwear and shirts. A lot earlier I know, but habits may die hard with dancers.
(2) He had the calves of a ballet dancer. Quote Paul Lawson, the taxidermist who completed the bust.
(3) He had peculiarly wedged feet (Paul Lawson again). I have images of ballet dancers' feet and what point work does to their toes. They are wedge-shaped.
(4) He had heavy metal traces in his hair. Ballet dancers use makeup containing heavy metals.
(5) There was an unidentified black powder found on the brush in his suitcase. Ballet dancers use rosin powder, and in times of short supply of the best rosin, a darker powder is used.
(6) Ballet runs in the Thomson family, Robin was a successful dancer.

All very circumstantial, I know, but very hard to ignore.
I agree with you and think he was an athlete and probably the ballet dancer Otis Pierce. The description of the well developed calves (which it sounded like he took a cast in a full body cast and his toes being a wedged shape. The equipment found in his suitcase also fits with making your own ballet shoes.

However he only seemed to perform once in a character role while travelling with the Ballet Russo. He could have been a spy gathering information when they toured Australia in the late 1930's and came back later, or maybe never left with the tour group when they went to USA just before the war. However, I've got no confidence (for a number of reasons) this Otis Pierce (Pearce) was his real name or he was born in 1912, or in USA.

I found info that only gave me me questions, so decided to go back and look at the original Coroners Inquest to see if that had answers. I was curious that the photos released that were said to be of the unidentified man didn't seem to match the description given in the post mortem report and by the taxidermist who completed the bust and it sounded like the whole body?

John Mathew Dwyer at 7.30 am on 2nd Dec 1948 started the post mortem exam which I've taken parts out of. There was very little on the man's physical appearance and seemed to concentrate on possibly finding out how he died. The teeth chart was supposed to be included in the Exhibit C2, but none of the 18 Exhibits mentioned in the Coroners Report were attached. "Several teeth missing in the jaw". "If he were speaking, the missing teeth were not noticeable". "Anyone looking at him in the normal way, if he were to laugh, would notice teeth missing".
1548115723426.png

1548115802949.png


Detective Leane gave a more complete physical description and also said 16 teeth missing in total, 8 teeth missing from the top jaw and 8 teeth from the bottom jaw. You would think this is a unusual identifying feature and could have been natural (hereditary), no evidence of a plate or denture.

5 foot 11 inches, well built, broad shoulders, well developed limbs, large hands, hair slightly receding in front, gingery but mousy coloured.

Hair fairly coarse, turning grey on sides and behind ears. No distinct part.

Approx 45 years of age, grey eyes, clean shaven.


1548116706582.png
 

BlueE

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#86
As a by the way - and in order to ingratiate myself with you folks, my uncle on my father's side was Melbourne's Denis Cordner ... I remember marvelling at the multitude of dents scrapes and stud marks on his legs when we went to the beach, and almost every member of the Cordner family was eight foot high.
 

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BlueE

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As a by the way - and in order to ingratiate myself with you folks, my uncle on my father's side was Melbourne's Denis Cordner ... I remember marvelling at the multitude of dents scrapes and stud marks on his legs when we went to the beach, and almost every member of the Cordner family was eight foot high.
I realise you and probably icydeadpeople have looked at this for years, so I'm interested in your opinion but for me there are a couple of factors in this case that as Jessica was reported to have said, "higher up" people know exactly who he was and there was some sort of cover up or muddying of the investigation or information which has masked his identity to this day.

1. I don't think the photos (or fingerprints) that were released were of the body recovered. The description of the body by detective Leane and the Dr performing the post mortem doesn't match the photo. The bust of the face which was made 6 months later by the taxidermist and shown to Jessica, caused her shock and maybe this was because it was accurate and nothing like the photos which she and other were happy to be released.

From the 1947 Inquest the police photographer on 3rd Dec 1948 "was pointed out a body" and told that body was found on Somerton beach. Photographs were Exhibits C5, C6, C7 and C8, but all absent from the copy of the Inquest that I saw.

He says he also had "some copies on the writing found on the dead" (Tamam Shud?) and fingerprints which were Exhibits C7 and C8.

I note he says "I took a photo of the paper found on the dec'd., and I produce sopies (sp) of that."

Then he seems to indicate the Exhibit number, but this is crossed out. (last sentence below)


1548149482520.png


There were a few Exhibits attached to the 1954 copy of the Inquest, including the bust (below) which shows receding hairline and different face. One image I've seen there is strawberry blonde hair sticking to the mould.
1548151179758.png

https://somerandomstuff1.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-somerton-man-mystery/

https://tomsbytwo.com/2016/04/17/gallery/
 
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BlueE

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2. The teeth.

Looking at Robyn's (probable son) teeth who has the same missing number 2's on the top jaw, there is no real gap for the remaining teeth, but they are just spread out a little more. It's not specified whether Robyn also had other missing back molars. No sign of any dentures were found and the man was described as fit looking, well muscled (especially calves) with a strong heart, it's more likely the teeth indicate a hereditary trait.

This should have been valuable to find out who he was. Oh wait .. I'm sure that someone knew this, but along with misleading photo and whoever's fingerprints, someone didn't want him being identified.
 

BlueE

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3. DNA

There are some DNA experts on here that may be able to answer some questions I have or offer some insight to what could be going on with tests that have been done so far.
@iceydeadpeople essay mentions some interesting details on DNA testing that's been done so far. https://somerandomstuff1.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-somerton-man-mystery/

1548152263063.png

Isham Randolf, born around 1685 in Virginia and 3rd President Thomas Jefferson, born 1743 are pretty famous Americans. However they were both born before we adopted the current Georgian calendar. That is ... a long time ago!

Is it unusual to be able to go back so far without getting genetic matches to closer relatives/

Or did they get genetic matches, but are not saying?

1548153236599.png
 

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#90
3. DNA

There are some DNA experts on here that may be able to answer some questions I have or offer some insight to what could be going on with tests that have been done so far.
@iceydeadpeople essay mentions some interesting details on DNA testing that's been done so far. https://somerandomstuff1.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-somerton-man-mystery/

View attachment 609035
Isham Randolf, born around 1685 in Virginia and 3rd President Thomas Jefferson, born 1743 are pretty famous Americans. However they were both born before we adopted the current Georgian calendar. That is ... a long time ago!

Is it unusual to be able to go back so far without getting genetic matches to closer relatives/

Or did they get genetic matches, but are not saying?
First let me state this is not aimed at the poster as its information quoted and they are looking for the answers

I'm confused. They have the ok for an exhumation of TSM, yet they havent asked for one of Robin???

In what DNA situation does the extraction of DNA from a partner give you your own DNA??

The Father line DNA is YDNA and not autosomnal , though that can be utilised, it just makes it difficult. I guess the naming of Isham Randolph does indeed indicate that YDNA was searched as its easier to find more distant common ancestors.

Does that mean Isham Randolph is a strong connection? I would hesitate to say yes

Autosomnal would be the better one to search for more recent relatives.
 

sprockets

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#91
...

In what DNA situation does the extraction of DNA from a partner give you your own DNA??
I'd say they're talking about 'deleting' the DNA of the father from an offspring's DNA.

The Father line DNA is YDNA and not autosomnal , though that can be utilised, it just makes it difficult. I guess the naming of Isham Randolph does indeed indicate that YDNA was searched as its easier to find more distant common ancestors. ...
The 'father line' DNA is both autosomal and Y-DNA. An offspring inherits more than just the Y-chromosome from its father. Girls don't inherit the Y at all, they inherit his X (plus the autosomals). I know you know that so I'm pointing it out for others.
 
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#92
...
Is it unusual to be able to go back so far without getting genetic matches to closer relatives/

Or did they get genetic matches, but are not saying?
...
They'd have a match (person) for every generation back to Isham Randolph. Isham Randolph himself is of no consequence here, apart from being a common ancestor, ie, it's just a bit of fluff in the story. Having said that, if that bit of an incomplete DNA sequence is all they have then I wish them luck, because everyone connected in the genealogy of Isham Randolph comes into calculations. However, that's unlikely.
 

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#93
They'd have a match (person) for every generation back to Isham Randolph. Isham Randolph himself is of no consequence here, apart from being a common ancestor, ie, it's just a bit of fluff in the story. Having said that, if that bit of an incomplete DNA sequence is all they have then I wish them luck, because everyone connected in the genealogy of Isham Randolph comes into calculations. However, that's unlikely.
BTW, there's no such thing as a 'direct relative' as stated by the author of that page. I presume he means Robin is from one of the tail lines, males all the way back to Randolph or females all the way back.
 

BlueE

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First let me state this is not aimed at the poster as its information quoted and they are looking for the answers

I'm confused. They have the ok for an exhumation of TSM, yet they havent asked for one of Robin???

In what DNA situation does the extraction of DNA from a partner give you your own DNA??

The Father line DNA is YDNA and not autosomnal , though that can be utilised, it just makes it difficult. I guess the naming of Isham Randolph does indeed indicate that YDNA was searched as its easier to find more distant common ancestors.

Does that mean Isham Randolph is a strong connection? I would hesitate to say yes

Autosomnal would be the better one to search for more recent relatives.
So Robyn has XY chromosomes and daughter is XX. She inherits one X from her father and one X from her mother. Are they saying they identified and removed the mothers X chromosome line and traced the fathers X chromosome line?
 
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I thought it was interesting that you can get the male or Y chromosome line, if that what what happened, with the daughter of that man's DNA. Sounds plausible, and maybe that's why they don't need to exhume Robyn. I took that as how they managed to follow the direct male line of Somerton man (without that much understanding orf the process). It would assume that Robyn was the son of Somerton man.
Ahh no you cant
 

BlueE

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I'd say they're talking about 'deleting' the DNA of the father from an offspring's DNA.


The 'father line' DNA is both autosomal and Y-DNA. An offspring inherits more than just the Y-chromosome from its father. Girls don't inherit the Y at all, they inherit his X (plus the autosomals). I know you know that so I'm pointing it out for others.
I guess that;s what I'm asking. How do you get the Y chromosome line from the XX line of the daughter?
 

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#98
The YDNA is passed on father to son/s only

The X chromosome is passed down through the female line. I have an X chromosome but I wont pass it on but my sisters will

Mine is XY - I pass on the Y

My sister is XX she passes on the X
 

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The YDNA is passed on father to son/s only

The X chromosome is passed down through the female line. I have an X chromosome but I wont pass it on but my sisters will

Mine is XY - I pass on the Y

My sister is XX she passes on the X
Sorry but incorrect. Humans have 46 chromosomes (23 pairs) which include the 44 autosomes plus the two sex chromosomes XX (females) or XY (males). Of those 23 pairs each parent passes on one from each pair to their offspring. So a male will pass one from each pair of the autosomes and a sex chromosome. The sex chromosome can be either the X or the Y. Because a female only has a pair of X's she can only pass on an X, as well as one of each of the autosomes.

If a male passes on his X the result will be female, but if he passes on his Y the result will be male. Remember, the female will only pass on an X because that's all she has, so the combined result from the parents will be XX or XY (plus the autosomes of course).

In other words, you get 23 chromosomes from each of your parents and the sex of the offspring will be determined by which sex chromosome the male passes on.

Y-DNA is just the DNA that's on the Y-chromosome.
 
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sprockets

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I guess that;s what I'm asking. How do you get the Y chromosome line from the XX line of the daughter?
See my post above. There's much more than just an X-chromosome (and the DNA it contains) passed from father to daughter - there are 22 other chromosomes as well. If they have the father's DNA they can take out everything that matches him from the daughter's DNA and you're left with the mother's DNA, because a child is made up from a (equal) combination of father's and mother's DNA.
 
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