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Tanking Doesn't Work

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cormick

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All this talk of chucking in the season and trying to "tank" to get Natanui, Rich and or Hurley, but, looking at recent drafting history, one would have to conclude- tanking doesnt work.

You obviously cant say whether or not tanking (if they did, but thats a different arguement) will get Carlton a premiership, but the only other team that i can remember stocking up on high draft picks, was St Kilda, with the likes of Riewoldt, X and R Clarke, Dal etc all high 1st round picks.
Look where they are now!
They might make the finals, but even the most ardent Saints fan would realise the flag dream for this year is gone.

Brissy, Port, Swans (to an extent), WCE and Geelong all made the flag theirs from good list management, coaching and hard bodies and some brilliance of extraordinary players, who, other than Judd, werent IIRC, top draft picks.

Judd (pick 3), Kerr (18?), Cox (rookie) carried WCE over the line.

Voss, Black, Aker and Lappin, who were all drafted in an earlier-than-tanking era, so their pick is both unknown and unimportant.

The highest pick PA has ever had is Travis Boak at pick 4...who wasnt playing in their premiership side.

Swans were down for a while, but it was Goodes and Kirk (Pick 46 and rookie) who got them the flag.

Geelong had a brilliant team, helped obviously by the high amounts of F/S's (G,N Ablett, Scarlett, Blake), but Selwood and Bartell are the only notable high picks...pick 7 and 9 IIRC...not tanking material. If we keep on playing good, hard football, and get 3-6 more wins, then, not only will we get the opportunity at a Selwood/Bartel player (Pick 5-10), but we may well develop a good culture that people tend to rate so highly these days.

Brilliant!

Of course, we need to pick the right players and develop them the right way, but tanking is not the way forward for the RFC!!!
 
we dont need to tank to get the player we need, shaun mckernan
17 yo , 196cm ,96 kgs.
should grow another 2-3 cm. richo,s replacement

we are in desperate need for a tall versatile chf around 100kgs .
 

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Yep correct you can even go back as far as the 1940's, a young up and coming type called Adolf had taken Europe by storm and as things started to go pear shaped he figured he would go the tank and looked how that worked out for him.
 
cormick said:
All this talk of chucking in the season and trying to "tank" to get Natanui, Rich and or Hurley, but, looking at recent drafting history, one would have to conclude- tanking doesnt work.

You obviously cant say whether or not tanking (if they did, but thats a different arguement) will get Carlton a premiership, but the only other team that i can remember stocking up on high draft picks, was St Kilda, with the likes of Riewoldt, X and R Clarke, Dal etc all high 1st round picks.
Look where they are now!
They might make the finals, but even the most ardent Saints fan would realise the flag dream for this year is gone.

Brissy, Port, Swans (to an extent), WCE and Geelong all made the flag theirs from good list management, coaching and hard bodies and some brilliance of extraordinary players, who, other than Judd, werent IIRC, top draft picks.

Judd (pick 3), Kerr (18?), Cox (rookie) carried WCE over the line.

Voss, Black, Aker and Lappin, who were all drafted in an earlier-than-tanking era, so their pick is both unknown and unimportant.

The highest pick PA has ever had is Travis Boak at pick 4...who wasnt playing in their premiership side.

Swans were down for a while, but it was Goodes and Kirk (Pick 46 and rookie) who got them the flag.

Geelong had a brilliant team, helped obviously by the high amounts of F/S's (G,N Ablett, Scarlett, Blake), but Selwood and Bartell are the only notable high picks...pick 7 and 9 IIRC...not tanking material. If we keep on playing good, hard football, and get 3-6 more wins, then, not only will we get the opportunity at a Selwood/Bartel player (Pick 5-10), but we may well develop a good culture that people tend to rate so highly these days.

Brilliant!

Of course, we need to pick the right players and develop them the right way, but tanking is not the way forward for the RFC!!!
Click to expand...


Best post i have read for........30 seconds.....no seriously great post
 
cormick said:
All this talk of chucking in the season and trying to "tank" to get Natanui, Rich and or Hurley, but, looking at recent drafting history, one would have to conclude- tanking doesnt work.

You obviously cant say whether or not tanking (if they did, but thats a different arguement) will get Carlton a premiership, but the only other team that i can remember stocking up on high draft picks, was St Kilda, with the likes of Riewoldt, X and R Clarke, Dal etc all high 1st round picks.
Look where they are now!
They might make the finals, but even the most ardent Saints fan would realise the flag dream for this year is gone.

Brissy, Port, Swans (to an extent), WCE and Geelong all made the flag theirs from good list management, coaching and hard bodies and some brilliance of extraordinary players, who, other than Judd, werent IIRC, top draft picks.

Judd (pick 3), Kerr (18?), Cox (rookie) carried WCE over the line.

Voss, Black, Aker and Lappin, who were all drafted in an earlier-than-tanking era, so their pick is both unknown and unimportant.

The highest pick PA has ever had is Travis Boak at pick 4...who wasnt playing in their premiership side.

Swans were down for a while, but it was Goodes and Kirk (Pick 46 and rookie) who got them the flag.

Geelong had a brilliant team, helped obviously by the high amounts of F/S's (G,N Ablett, Scarlett, Blake), but Selwood and Bartell are the only notable high picks...pick 7 and 9 IIRC...not tanking material. If we keep on playing good, hard football, and get 3-6 more wins, then, not only will we get the opportunity at a Selwood/Bartel player (Pick 5-10), but we may well develop a good culture that people tend to rate so highly these days.

Brilliant!

Of course, we need to pick the right players and develop them the right way, but tanking is not the way forward for the RFC!!!
Click to expand...
Where to start. Well first off I give you the last team to stock pile high draft picks and become a threat for the flag. See Hawthorn circa 2004-2005. In that time the Hawks earned 4 top 5 draft picks through their finish on the ladder picking up Roughead, Franklin, Ellis (all members of their best 22) & Dowler.

In the 05 season, the Hawks finished with 5 wins although they should have won 6 games that year after leading us by 3 goals (1/4 time) 6 goals (1/2 time) and 3 goals (3/4 time) in our round 21 clash that year only to end up 'losing' by 4 points. Result was that come draft day the Hawks had picks 3 & 6 in the National draft but more importantly had pick 3 in the PSD that year and were able to grab Guerra (who is a fairly important player in their 22). 2.5 years later the Hawks are sitting on top of the ladder with a 10-1 record, while we who took great pleasure from winning that meaningless game after coming back from those margins currently sit bottom 5 with a 3-1-7 record.

Now onto Port having never tanked, you don't need to tank when your side is given first crack at 36 of the best players in SA outside the draft the year your side is formed plus 4 uncontracted players as well. They got most of their premiership side in that draft alone and then added a few players in the following couple of years.

Brisbane got their flags not through tanking but the extra money they had in their caps so they could hold on to players from interstate. Not only that but they were able to fend off offers from other clubs who targetted their stars in the years they were winning flags. I recall offers being made to Power(pick 5), Black, Lappin(pick 2), Leppitsch(pick 4) amongst others but the extra cash available to them allowed them to keep these players.

Same thing with the Swans where their salary cap bonus allowed them to pick up the likes of Hall, Maxfield, Ball, Williams, Jolly, Davis, Richards & Everitt who over the years were developed by other clubs and then pinched by the Swans.


BTW if you think Richmond don't tank/haven't tanked before, ask yourself what happened in round 21 2004. Hint: we were sitting 15th on 4 wins entered a game against Hawthorn who were last with 3 wins.
 
Good post RT. I'd like to add a bit about the saints.

Don't be fooled by results, St.Kilda were a premiership chance between 2004-2006. They had a superb list, but I don't think anyone can deny they had a shocking injury list, and could never get their best team on the park. Sure they didn't manage to win the premiership, but that list was good enough to.

Internal issues at the club saw them do a geelong in 2007, and now they are starting to feel the pinch of bringing in too many recycled players. They may need a rebuild of sorts, but they won't need to tank, because like the other teams you spoke about Cormick, the list is in good enough shape not to need it.
 
beaver fever said:
Good post RT. I'd like to add a bit about the saints.

Don't be fooled by results, St.Kilda were a premiership chance between 2004-2006. They had a superb list, but I don't think anyone can deny they had a shocking injury list, and could never get their best team on the park. Sure they didn't manage to win the premiership, but that list was good enough to.

Internal issues at the club saw them do a geelong in 2007, and now they are starting to feel the pinch of bringing in too many recycled players. They may need a rebuild of sorts, but they won't need to tank, because like the other teams you spoke about Cormick, the list is in good enough shape not to need it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, i see what youre saying, and i agree...i always have rated the saints, and they should have won the 05' flag, but Riewoldt is a stand out #1 pick.
Whos to say tanking wont get us another Josh Fraser and Des Headland?
I know the old saying "youve gotta be in it to win it", but our early draft pick record is pretty poor, surely, having a winning culture that so many are keen on is more important than upgrading a draft pick from #6 or 7 to #1...?
 
cormick said:
Yeah, i see what youre saying, and i agree...i always have rated the saints, and they should have won the 05' flag, but Riewoldt is a stand out #1 pick.
Whos to say tanking wont get us another Josh Fraser and Des Headland?
I know the old saying "youve gotta be in it to win it", but our early draft pick record is pretty poor, surely, having a winning culture that so many are keen on is more important than upgrading a draft pick from #6 or 7 to #1...?
Click to expand...
We shouldn't fear the draft. We need to embrace it. It is our only hope.

We are investing more money and time into this facet of the football department and we are getting better and better at it. If we manage to get a priority pick, that isn't just upgrading pick 7 to 1, it is upgrading pick 7 to picks 1 and 3 and all our other subsequent picks. Trading for more picks would only go to help even more. There is some really good KPP talent this draft, just the thing this club needs.
 
beaver fever said:
We shouldn't fear the draft. We need to embrace it. It is our only hope.

We are investing more money and time into this facet of the football department and we are getting better and better at it. If we manage to get a priority pick, that isn't just upgrading pick 7 to 1, it is upgrading pick 7 to picks 1 and 3 and all our other subsequent picks. Trading for more picks would only go to help even more. There is some really good KPP talent this draft, just the thing this club needs.
Click to expand...
Yes, i have no worries with our drafting- Cotch, Lids and Dicky will all be guns. Hopefully JON will be too.

But we should have already passed the rebuild stage. As Wallace says in the paper this morning- ' "We were aiming for the bottom end of the 8 at the start of the year"...heartbreaking results vs WB and STK changed all that'

We are good enough to match it with the best sides NOW at our best. We are only going to improve as the aformentioned players come through along with later draft gems like Foley, Thursty n Raines. If they get a losing mentality as Richmond has had for how ever long, then, it is believed that they will continue that "tradition", n keep losing. If we start to break that trend n win some games, then we will carry that form over with us next year.
Look at Hawthorn 2 years ago...finished 6th last or so, when they could so easilly have tanked, and gained more draft picks, but they chose to take the winning path, and havent looked back.
 
cormick said:
Yeah, i see what youre saying, and i agree...i always have rated the saints, and they should have won the 05' flag, but Riewoldt is a stand out #1 pick.
Whos to say tanking wont get us another Josh Fraser and Des Headland?
I know the old saying "youve gotta be in it to win it", but our early draft pick record is pretty poor, surely, having a winning culture that so many are keen on is more important than upgrading a draft pick from #6 or 7 to #1...?
Click to expand...

Not sure how you can say it is pretty poor when under Wallace only JON and Meyer have struggled to show anything at AFL level out of 6 first round picks we've had. Both of them have had a fair few injury worries though in that time and by all reports seem to be making up a bit of ground at the moment now that they are over their injury concerns.
 
Realistic Tiger said:
Not sure how you can say it is pretty poor when under Wallace only JON and Meyer have struggled to show anything at AFL level out of 6 first round picks we've had. Both of them have had a fair few injury worries though in that time and by all reports seem to be making up a bit of ground at the moment now that they are over their injury concerns.
Click to expand...
Yeah my bad, i didnt mean "poor", i meant it could have been better.
If it was better, then the high picks should be as good as the lower- Foley/Thursty type gems weve gotten.
Deledio is there now, Tambling is getting there, but Meyer, JON, Hughes, etc arent (rightfully or wrongfully) getting a game. I know youre all for playing them, but if they were good enough atm theyd be getting games.
Polo is another.

If we had drafted well, wed be in the finals his year.
 

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HERE'S my view on it.

We tank (and there's no way I would endorse it, condone it or like to see it - it's a sign of weakness), what guarantees do we have it will work.
The way I look at it, we had five picks in the top 20 in the draft that netted Deledio and Tambling.
Oakley-Nicholls was pick 7, Riewoldt was a first rounder (and we gained another former top five pick in Polak for nothing), Cleve Hughes was drafted just outside the first round, ditto for Jay Schulz, Cotchin was top two, depending on you listen to we got our man we would have taken with pick 19 just outside the first round in Putt.
Had ample chance to get this right.
Going 1 through 5 doesn't guarantee you stradom - see Polak, Sampi etc.
I really can't see how tanking will help!
 
SolidTiger said:
All those people here who want us to tank. Have a read of these threads from the Carlton board from last year and see how pathetic you look at the moment.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364125

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364159

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=363026

I am disapointed that so many Richmond suppoerters are beggining to stoop to their level.
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Kruezer and Judd just simply negate any losses they had that season. Pretty happy with Cotchin aren't you?
 
beaver fever said:
Kruezer and Judd just simply negate any losses they had that season. Pretty happy with Cotchin aren't you?
Click to expand...
If he becomes as good a player as pick #7 Selwood is/is giong to be, I'll be happy.
he may well be better, but I'll settle for the gun he is.
 

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beaver fever said:
Kruezer and Judd just simply negate any losses they had that season. Pretty happy with Cotchin aren't you?
Click to expand...

Tanking won't work for us anyway. Even if we get the priority pick, we will lose it anyway when the AFL takes it from us if they find that Richmond attempted to pay Ben Holland outside the salary cap.
 
beaver fever said:
Kruezer and Judd just simply negate any losses they had that season. Pretty happy with Cotchin aren't you?
Click to expand...
Exactly:thumbsu: Imagine the excitement building towards at least 3 picks inside the top 20 of another 'Superdraft' with the grand prize of Natanui. We've had 52 half-seasons of pain, whats 1 more.
 
Wow, what great win. We beat the team that will end up on 1 win for the season and our prize - we are still a game and a half out of the eight.

This is the season we should have bottomed out, taken the priority, had picks 1, 2, 18, & 19 and stockpiled kids like Hawthorn did. Unfortunately Wallace is coaching to keep his job for another week, not for the long-term health of the club.

Let's face it, our best player is Richo and he is on borrowed time. Who will replace him? JON? Don't make me laugh....

With the new GC team in next years draft, and West Sydney thereafter, the draft is locked out for teams like us for the next 5 - 6 years. Wallace has just ensured we will endure another decade of mediocrity!!!!!
 
WC seem to be in tank mode....see the wry grin on Kerr's face when they interviewed him at the ground....was doing run throughs or something and it didn't quite feel 100%.....do you think he would have played if they were knocking on the 8?

Still, c'mon on guys, it would have been pretty difficult to lose every game to: The Dees (TWICE), Bummers, the Tankers and WC (see above!). So take out the priority, and we are talking about a few spots in the selection process....means nothing....notch a few wins for the kids...has been a couple of lean years for Lids, Foley and Tambo etc.

As a few have already mentioned, glad we can forget about the tanking now!!!!! Hint Hint (although I am sure next game we lose the Pro Tankers will be out again....feel free to post on The Carlton board with it though!!)
 

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