Tassie football in crisis (again)

[The_Wookie]

knock off the "tit for tat" crap. Requesting other mods to watch thread due to my involvement.

Gralin, Malifice, Messenger et al.

 

[BringBackTorps]

AFL Rules can only be leveled against AFL players and officials[I agree]
Show me an instance -ANY instance - of the AFL Commission leveling a "bringing the game into disrepute" charge against anyone outside[?] the actual Australian football league.[I never said this] Thats one of your worst arguments yet.[The AFL's "Bringing The Game Into Disrepute" Rules, which apply to AFLClub Officials & Players, are evidence the AFL Clubs have a strong moral {& in some circumstances, legal} responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.
Also, AFL & Club Officials often state that poor AFL player behaviour can "flow-on" to GR levels -and is given as a major reason to eradicate it eg touching Umpires, unduly rough tackles etc. This is further evidence that AFL Clubs have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF].

Dont even know WHEN he said this or the context. Dont really care. He's dead. The game and the AFL are a world away from where they were when he was coaching.[Alan Jeans made these type of comment numerous times during his coaching career. The context was often about the "Big Picture", protecting the long term interests of AF, & having a good Club culture. Tom Hafey was also very strong publicly on promoting the game, & not hurting the GR].

The fact that AFL players often visit GR clubs for promotional/coaching activities is further evidence they recognise & accept that AFL Clubs have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.

AFL Officials, AFL Clubs, & Players often state the AFL players are "role models". This clearly implies they believe the AFL Clubs have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.

I assume that the nthn. expansion AFL Clubs readily accept that they have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.

Arguments against this basic proposition are weak -some might say absurd.

I cannot recall any AFL or AFL Club Official arguing the proposition the Clubs do NOT have a moral responsibility to promote the game, or that the Clubs are permitted to hurt the GR. If any have done so, they would be in a very small minority. On the contrary, AFL Clubs seeking an AFLW license were specifically required to implement plans & have policies that promoted grassroots female AF.
This does not conflict with the basic proposition that the strong moral responsibility of promoting the game and not hurting the GR lies primarily with the AFL.

Virtually everyone would agree that direct VFL/AFL telecasts into Tasmania (since they do not have their own AFL team) have hurt the elite Tas. comps, & their GR.
Tasmania's population has increased from c. 430,000 to 520,000 since 1988. Why is it unique to Tas. that GR AF male participation is collapsing, whilst soccer and basketball are growing strongly?
VFL/AFL Clubs have failed in their moral responsiblility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.

 

[The_Wookie]

[Alan Jeans made these type of comment numerous times during his coaching career. The context was often about the "Big Picture", protecting the long term interests of AF, & having a good Club culture. Tom Hafey was also very strong publicly on promoting the game, & not hurting the GR].

In other words, this isnt a quote you can pinpoint. You cant show any context, and for all we know its something you invented.

Virtually everyone would agree that direct VFL/AFL telecasts into Tasmania (whist they do not have their own AFL team) have hurt the elite Tas. comps, & their GR.

As it did everywhere else in the country. Again, why is Tasmania some sort of special case?

Tasmania's population has increased from c. 430,000 to 520,000 since 1988. Why is it unique to Tas. that GR AF male participation is collapsing, whilst soccer and basketball are growing strongly?

Because Tasmanian football failed itself - by not adapting and not taking any action to help itself. Its why the AFL bailed it out in 2011, its why the AFL replaced the board in 2015. The AFL should have done more after 2011, but Tasmanian footy was circling the drain well before that.

The TSL is definitely beyond club means - as evidenced by them needing to be subsidised to the tune of 100,000 a year just to participate in it. Why does there have to be a state comp? This is a fairly recent invention anyway - for the better part of a century Tasmania got by without one.

 

[Freo88]

Why does there have to be a state comp? This is a fairly recent invention anyway - for the better part of a century Tasmania got by without one.

What's the alternative - amateur clubs just competing all over the state?

 

[Snake_Baker]

What's the alternative - amateur clubs just competing all over the state?

The local competition is streamlining.

 

[telsor]

I'll give you one fact, Gil admitted the AFL had 'dropped the ball' in relation to Tasmanian football. If you have a problem with his own admission, then you give him a call & tell him you know all the facts.

So a guy who repeatedly say knows nothing about Tas football says something you agree with and you latch onto it like it's gospel truth. Sure...

Tell me, what was the context of that statement?

I'm guessing he wasn't saying that every single aspect of Tasmanian football that wasn't perfect (in your view) was entirely the AFL's fault.

Because vague statements without context from someone you clearly don't think very highly of aren't enough to base your entire viewpoint on.

 

[telsor]

Virtually everyone would agree that direct VFL/AFL telecasts into Tasmania (since they do not have their own AFL team) have hurt the elite Tas. comps, & their GR.
Tasmania's population has increased from c. 430,000 to 520,000 since 1988. Why is it unique to Tas. that GR AF male participation is collapsing, whilst soccer and basketball are growing strongly?
VFL/AFL Clubs have failed in their moral responsiblility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.

Firstly, have you anything to backup your claim that "GR AF male participation is 'collapsing' "?
Recent figures (and I don't have any old figures) seem to show it holding it's own.

But anyway....2 demographic things...

Aus population in 1988 ~16.53 Million.
Aus population now ~24.13 million.

Tas grows 20%, Aus as a whole grows 50%...If the participation rate drops across the board, it's quite possible that the absolute number could drop in Tas while rising in the rest of the country.

Added to that is that the population as a whole, but especially in Tasmania is aging...The average age in Tas is noticeably higher than the rest of the country, low immigration and long term net migration out of the state, all of which would primarily affect the younger (AF participating age) demographics.

I dare say the rate of, say 15-25yo males in Tas who play footy isn't all that different to similar areas in the rest of the country....It's just that the number in that group have declined, relatively speaking.


But still, I look forward to you producing evidence of this 'collapse' since 1988 so we can further this discussion informed by that information.

BTW. For the current situation, check out wookie's site...(pretty sure it doesn't go back to 1988 though)

http://www.footyindustry.com/?p=4138

 

[Snake_Baker]

Firstly, have you anything to backup your claim.......

......I look forward to you producing evidence

Don't hold your breath.

 

[telsor]

What's the alternative - amateur clubs just competing all over the state?

For a long time they had 3 regional comps. (broadly speaking) Hobart, Launceston and the NE, and the NW.

The original state comp was basically the Hobart league expanding to take in teams from the rest. Notably, this was against the advise of the very report they commissioned on how to do it which wanted to drop some Hobart teams and essentially form a 'new' comp....In many ways, it's not dissimilar to the VFL expansion, which makes the 'holier than though' proclamations about how the AFL should drop Vic teams to make way for a Tas team all the more ludicrous.

 

[telsor]

Don't hold your breath.

Trust me, I've been doing this longer than you. I know.

I provide objective information like demographic and economic data, reports from various bodies, provide links and sources...

In return I get personal attacks and vague references. Often to information that (if you can find it) is out of context, isn't public and/or has a clear agenda. Opinions are routinely accepted as 'fact' if they fit the desired narrative.

These threads epitomise 'feels not reals'. It's why I mostly steer clear these days and only venture back in when I'm bored. Trying to actually convince people here is like banging your head on a brick wall. I figure the best I can hope for is that by pointing out the obvious holes in the arguments every now and again (shooting fish in a barrel really), someone new to the discussion will see the fragility of the case for a Tas team.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Hey, I have had the same experience with a select few. Faux superiority fueled by little more than unfounded rumor and innuendo.

Keep posting sourced information and facts. I, for one, appreciate it.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Firstly, have you anything to backup your claim that "GR AF male participation is 'collapsing' "?

I will answer your question to"back up my claim".

But first, however, I will ask you to answer the specific questions I put to you in post #489 here yesterday.

 

[madmug]

Have a read of the two tweedle boys. Told to avoid the tit for tat stuff, decide to try a double act.

This thread is about whats happening in football here. Why the TSL & links & pathways are in the state they are. AFLTas a the local arm & paid by the AFL to 'manage'. Clearly for Gill to get involved, they must consider their is a problem here. So maybe try & understand that if you want to converse on the topic

When it comes to most of your posting about Tasmania & AFL football, your 'proof' & 'objective figures' consist of gross state economic figures as if that directly applies to football clubs. Well if so, why are certain clubs in Melbourne continually struggling? Where's their state economic power? Clearly its not the be & end all of assessment criteria.

Whenever one points out supporting economists who say Tasmania could support an AFL club, you clearly know better. Or if Melbourne's economy is so strong it can support 10 clubs, why do clubs fly interstate to play home games? Why do so many clubs rely so heavily on the AFL to cover huge chunks of they budgets? Clearly their is a disconnect with your economic reality.

 

[madmug]

For a long time they had 3 regional comps. (broadly speaking) Hobart, Launceston and the NE, and the NW.

The original state comp was basically the Hobart league expanding to take in teams from the rest. Notably, this was against the advise of the very report they commissioned on how to do it which wanted to drop some Hobart teams and essentially form a 'new' comp....In many ways, it's not dissimilar to the VFL expansion, which makes the 'holier than though' proclamations about how the AFL should drop Vic teams to make way for a Tas team all the more ludicrous.

You are talking about the first 'TSL' which started in 1986 & ended in 2000. It started with 6 Southern, & 2 Northern clubs. Then added 1 north & 2 NWC clubs. That league went through about 14 different clubs between 1986 & 2000 & ended up with 6 teams in 2000. AFLTas had made the league unsustainable with constant change & operational costs mounting, blamed the clubs & started the VFL Devils. Then back to 'TSL2' 1n 2009 after they'd buggered that up the VFL team. This current TSL2 league started with NWC 2 clubs, North 3 & South 5 clubs. AFLTas stuffed up South Launceston into Western Storm then Prospect Hawks, which was a 'plastic franchise' & collapsed. So that left us with 2 NWC, 2 North & 5 South clubs until this year we have 2 North & 5 South clubs. A total dogs breakfast. The league was never structured properly & not financed to do the job AFLTas expected of it.

The latest 'Gil's back to the future 2' plan, does nothing to address the problem here & now.

So please explain to the readers the similarity to the VFL expansion?

And explain to the readers what are you complaining about being holier than though?

 

[telsor]

I will answer your question to"back up my claim".

But first, however, I will ask you to answer the specific questions I put to you in post #489 here yesterday.

Sure.

Do you think they are wrong? What do you know that they dont?

Would Tas be in the mix for a 19th/20th team...Yes.
Would they get one...Depends on the criteria and timeframe. Their case is getting worse as time passes due to their stagnant population/economy.

Do you agree a disaster has befallen Tas. AF?

No.

Do you accept that GR soccer & basketball have had strong growth in Tas.?

No idea, haven't seen the numbers, but I think it would be on a similar level to the rest of the country.

Do you accept that GR cricket is growing in Tas.? And that the BBL Hurricanes have been a great popular & commercial success?

Again, no idea...what are the numbers?

Do you think that RFC (& other Clubs) has a strong moral responsibilty to assist GR Tas. AF?

No.


Your turn.

 

[telsor]

You are talking about the first 'TSL' which started in 1986 & ended in 2000. It started with 6 Southern, & 2 Northern clubs. Then added 1 north & 2 NWC clubs. That league went through about 14 different clubs between 1986 & 2000 & ended up with 6 teams in 2000. AFLTas had made the league unsustainable with constant change & operational costs mounting, blamed the clubs & started the VFL Devils. Then back to 'TSL2' 1n 2009 after they'd buggered that up the VFL team. This current TSL2 league started with NWC 2 clubs, North 3 & South 5 clubs. AFLTas stuffed up South Launceston into Western Storm then Prospect Hawks, which was a 'plastic franchise' & collapsed. So that left us with 2 NWC, 2 North & 5 South clubs until this year we have 2 North & 5 South clubs. A total dogs breakfast. The league was never structured properly & not financed to do the job AFLTas expected of it.

The latest 'Gil's back to the future 2' plan, does nothing to address the problem here & now.

So please explain to the readers the similarity to the VFL expansion?

And explain to the readers what are you complaining about being holier than though?

Wow, before AFLTas existed, it was still destroying Tas football.

This conspiracy theory of yours transcends time and space.

If anything did it, then it was Tas football that destroyed Tas football. That is why the AFL had to step in and bail you out...repeatedly...after all.

 

[madmug]

Wow, before AFLTas existed, it was still destroying Tas football.

This conspiracy theory of yours transcends time and space.

If anything did it, then it was Tas football that destroyed Tas football. That is why the AFL had to step in and bail you out...repeatedly...after all.

So in answer to your post, you'll just forget that you were wrong. You confused the Tasmanian state leagues development & changes. They are not like the VFL take over of the game at the national level. Your 'holier than thou' jibe was ignorant & misplaced.

People will understand you're just arguing for the point of arguing. You're really not interested in a footy discussion

So you ignore you mistake & just move onto something we've covered ad nauseam.

 

[telsor]

So in answer to your post, you'll just forget that you were wrong. You confused the Tasmanian state leagues development & changes. They are not like the VFL take over of the game at the national level. Your 'holier than thou' jibe was ignorant & misplaced.

People will understand you're just arguing for the point of arguing. You're really not interested in a footy discussion

So you ignore you mistake & just move onto something we've covered ad nauseam.

Yeah, VFL expanded to take over the rest of the country.

TANFL expands to take over the rest of the state.

No similarity there at all.

 

[madmug]

Yeah, VFL expanded to take over the rest of the country.

TANFL expands to take over the rest of the state.

No similarity there at all.

So the VFL lost 1 club after it took over football across the land. They've controlled the game & had the major influence on the previous state leagues ever since.

The TFL lost 8 clubs in TSL1. Then started again with 10 in a better balanced, yet just as poorly financed & managed league, which has effectively lost 3 clubs. Thats why we're in this mess now.

Football is dominated by the AFL. They manage the game here. They dominate the game & have taken responsibility for the game starting with the actions of the VFL towards the NFL as the controllers of interstate games & the body that represented the state leagues. They undermined & ended the last national football body, the NFC, in 1995.

Its that level of responsibility that is under fire now.

 

[The_Wookie]

Its that level of responsibility that is under fire now.

If the AFL had the same level of responsibility as the NFC, Tasmanian football wouldnt get a red cent and no one would fund any development and everything would still need VFL approval. We'd still have Origin and the Teal Cup though. Maybe. There was no national development program - Auskick grew out of a program based solely in Victoria until the 90s.

 

[madmug]

If the AFL had the same level of responsibility as the NFC, Tasmanian football wouldnt get a red cent and no one would fund any development and everything would still need VFL approval. We'd still have Origin and the Teal Cup though. Maybe. There was no national development program - Auskick grew out of a program based solely in Victoria until the 90s.

The AFL took over control & responsibility for the game. The recent 'Plan' for Tasmanian football contains almost nothing but a few crumbs for Tasmania. Its almost all predicated on what the AFL can extract from Tasmania. Thats been the problem for 30 years or more its all take & SFA care about where these kids come from. The structure of the game here seems forgotten again.

Without our own AFL team theirs no way of financially self sustaining the so called 'pathway' the AFL crow on about. The SANFL & WAFC can support local football & their own development programs. The AFL spend minimally here, hence the TSL clubs are in such a state. The 'managers' have not managed the need for structural change & helping with better than our current poverty level funding. Nearly all AFL funding goes on wages at the local office.

Anyway, if Auskick was such a good thing, why are Vic country leagues kicking up about this & AFL administration costs? Once again it seems its more about what the AFL can cream off community footy. Its pretty much the same one way street here as well.

 

[The_Wookie]

TASMANIA’S push for an AFL team has gone to a new level with a Bill Shorten-elected Labor government committing $25 million to a licence.

The Mercury can reveal Mr Shorten will on Saturday make the pledge, which is contingent on the AFL granting a licence for a men’s and women’s team.

It means should the AFL finally grant the state a licence, Tasmania will have $25 million in the kitty to start with.

Mr Shorten said it sends a strong message to the AFL and called on the Liberal Government to back his pledge.

“It is about time Australian political parties got behind the Australian game, it is Australia’s great athletic convention but it is scrambling in one of its key foundation states,” he said.

“We are sending a message to the AFL money is not going to be the reason it doesn’t happen.

“Ultimately the decision of AFL club licences is rightly the decision for the AFL, but I’d like to build up local football so it is a genuine feeder system for an AFL club, not just a league that is harvested by the mainland clubs.”

The funding will be used to get the team up and running and will be used for better facilities, upgrading grounds and player development.

Mr Shorten has also promised $1 million to Tasmania’s VFL and TAC Cup teams that were announced by AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan in Hobart on Tuesday. Mr Shorten on Thursday promised an additional $5 million to a Save Tassie Football fund for grassroots clubs and leagues.

He said he had been speaking regularly with Tasmanians who had raised concerns over the state of the game.

The Mercury revealed on Tuesday male participation had slumped 14.7 per cent from 2006 to 2017, including a fall of 22 per cent in the 13-to-18-year-old age group.

“Because I used to be a union rep organising in northern Tassie, I talk to a lot of blokes who play footy in the various comps and they like the idea of a Tasmanian [AFL] team but they also know we’ve got to help build the ecosystem of footy in Tassie,” he said.

“Sometimes you wonder whether the mainlanders are as interested in this question as Tasmania but Tasmania has given a lot to the game, from ‘Doc’ [Darrel] Baldock, Peter Hudson through to ‘Richo’ [Matthew Richardson], Alastair Lynch, Jack Riewoldt.

“You couldn’t imagine an Australian rules national competition without a contribution from Tasmania could you?”

 

[The_Wookie]

FEDERAL Labor will establish a $5 million Save Tassie Football fund if it wins government to support the sport at a grassroots level while the push for a state team in the AFL continues.

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten said the money would go to country and suburban football clubs over five years to upgrade facilities, buy guernseys and support the volunteers that kept clubs running.

“Tasmania is one of the foundation states of football in Australia. While the big debate about Tasmania having its own team in the AFL will continue the future of Tasmanian football is in its grassroot clubs,” Mr Shorten said in Burnie.

“I love the idea of a Tasmanian team in the AFL competition but until that happens we need to support local clubs to keep young people playing the game.

“The base of community football is crumbling. It’s time to get kids away from their screens, pull on some boots and have a go.”

“Tasmania has already proven it can grow great AFL talent, but it is widely recognised that more investment is needed to provide pathway for aspiring AFL and AFLW talent.”

Mr Shorten said Labor welcomed many of the AFL Tasmania Football Steering Committee findings — particularly the need to get participation rates up to parity for youth and senior teams.

He said Tasmania’s North-West would be a particular focus of his football fighting fund.

Mr Shorten said he would work with the AFL, AFL Tasmania and state and local government to fund projects including the construction of modern and female-friendly change rooms, improving the quality of playing surfaces, and the purchase of new training equipment and facilities.

“The goal of bringing an AFL club to Tassie needs strong community football foundations before it can become a reality,” he said.

“With women’s football going from strength to strength, supporting female players in Tasmania is particularly important for the sport’s growth in the state and will be a focus of the funding.

The funding promise follows Labor’s existing $350,000 commitment towards modernising the West Park Sports Facility.

Braddon Labor candidate Justine Keay said her electorate had a long and proud footy tradition, producing players like Ben Brown, Grant Birchall and Matthew “Richo” Richardson.

“Local footy is such an important part of our communities. It’s vital we make investments in grassroots footy so the game continues to grow in Tasmania,” Ms Keay said.

https://www.themercury.com.au/news/...s/news-story/f1715223d5d70d4474fce85d080ee498

 

[The_Wookie]

PRIME Minister Malcolm Turnbull has personally lobbied footy boss Gillon McLachlan for a Tasmanian team in the AFL.

The two spoke about the crisis in Tasmanian football when they attended Saturday night’s Essendon-Richmond Dreamtime at the ’G clash.

Mr Turnbull is understood to have told Mr McLachlan that while he acknowledged it was ultimately a decision for the AFL, he wanted to make it known he was personally supportive of having Tasmania having its own team.

The Prime Minister asked that he be kept updated on future developments.

A spokesman for the Prime Minister confirmed the meeting but would not discuss the contents of the conversation.

However, he said Mr Turnbull remained “enthusiastic and hopeful Tasmania is granted a team”.

Mr McLachlan is understood to have responded to the PM’s request by providing an update of the work of his steering committee into Tassie footy.

Last week, Mr McLachlan said it was important to fix community football and put in place effective talent pathways for junior and elite male and female players before a Tassie team could be considered.

When Mr Turnbull was in Tasmania last month he expressed his personal hope that there be a team representing the state in the AFL.

“It’s part of Tasmania’s way of life,” Mr Turnbull said at the time.

“You couldn’t imagine the AFL without the contribution of Tasmania or Tasmanians, so I hope there is a Tasmanian AFL team — but it’s going to be a matter for the AFL.”

Federal Opposition Leader Bill Shorten last week endorsed a push for an AFL team based here by Tasmania’s four state Labor MPs in the federal Lower House.

The AFL did not comment.

https://www.themercury.com.au/sport...m/news-story/439f31958c0207a47ddac3dcab1baf14

 

[Our Game]

https://www.themercury.com.au/news/...s/news-story/f1715223d5d70d4474fce85d080ee498

This could be the best thing to happen to Tassie footy in a long time and hopefully lead to a Tasmanian AFL team down the track.