Tax cuts vs welfare :

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I asked you - if we assume that automation causes mass unemployment do you still consider them dole bludgers? If so at what point do you not.

Ive asked it three times now.

If you answer my question im happy to answer yours.

If you dodge it again i will block and ignore you

Pretty fn simple.


Fn dribblibertarians - the reason atlas shrugged is because hed never heard of such an idiotic ideology.

I answered, if they do everything they can to find work no they are not dole bludgers however if they don't do all they can to find work they are a dole bludger. The criteria used to decide if someone is a dole bludger is the intent and effort they put into finding work , the level of unemployment due to automation be it 5% or 95% is irrelevant.What about this don't you understand ?

I am the most respected person on this forum, I do not care in the slightest if you block and ignore me.
 
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Again, you understand neither the basics of the underpinning economic or political theory.
Hed probably be shocked to know that ayn rand died having claimed a significant amount of social security and been a significant burden to the state with medicare.

I guess hes lucky emails werent around then ..
 
Again, you understand neither the basics of the underpinning economic or political theory.

What you are describing is mutual aid or altruism. If you were correct, charity would be socislism. Helping someone out, socialism as well. Any form of collective action with public benefit, so schools, public healthcare, local roads, etc. socialism.

But that isn't quite the case.

With charity the individual is making the free choice to help others, they are not having money forcibly taken by the government.

Capitalism has room for things to be done as a collective but that should be kept to a minimum. The individual first and the collective 2nd.

In other words government should only do what the private sector can not or will not do.
 

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I answered, if they do everything they can to find work no they are not dole bludgers however if they don't do all they can to find work they are a dole bludger. The criteria used to decide if someone is a dole bludger is the intent and effort they put into finding work , the level of unemployment due to automation be it 5% or 95% is irrelevant.What about this don't you understand ?

I am the most respected person on this forum, I do not care in the slightest if you block and ignore me.
If there is 95% unemployment unless you have a skill or talent that is in demand you are wasting your time.

Id hope that in a society built where machines can do all the menial drudgery humans can evolve to live lives of leisure, helping each other, communicating, enjoying each others company, exploring the stars, bringing children up as a village, pushing the boundaries of art, music, film and literature. etc etc

Your ideal is that they should spend their lives looking for work that isnt there. In an economy designed for work not to be there. Because the machines do it all.

That is actually the stupidest thing ive heard come out of a libertarians mouth. Which is amazing as the competition is fierce.
 
With charity the individual is making the free choice to help others, they are not having money forcibly taken by the government.

Capitalism has room for things to be done as a collective but that should be kept to a minimum. The individual first and the collective 2nd.

In other words government should only do what the private sector can not or will not do.
You said socialism was putting the collective before the individual.

Is the draft socialism? Is military spending socialism? Is the judiciary socialism? Is government itself socialism?

Like I said before, you are rediculously and hopelessly wrong in a most reductive way.

You literally do not understand what these words mean.
 
If there is 95% unemployment unless you have a skill or talent that is in demand you are wasting your time.

Id hope that in a society built where machines can do all the menial drudgery humans can evolve to live lives of leisure, helping each other, communicating, enjoying each others company, exploring the stars, bringing children up as a village, pushing the boundaries of art, music, film and literature. etc etc

Your ideal is that they should spend their lives looking for work that isnt there. In an economy designed for work not to be there. Because the machines do it all.

That is actually the stupidest thing ive heard come out of a libertarians mouth. Which is amazing as the competition is fierce.

Than they can go without the dole and get the robots to look after them. Seriously in you automated world with 95% unemployment the dole would be unaffordable so its gone.

You know what the big difference between me and you is ? you think you have the god given right to tell others how to live while I respect the fact that we all have a different concept about what the ideal lifestyle is and should all be free to live our life's as individuals too our full potential.
 
Than they can go without the dole and get the robots to look after them. Seriously in you automated world with 95% unemployment the dole would be unaffordable so its gone.

You know what the big difference between me and you is ? you think you have the god given right to tell others how to live while I respect the fact that we all have a different concept about what the ideal lifestyle is and should all be free to live our life's as individuals too our full potential.
Thats what you think you think.

In reality your world would be one governed by corporations and the megawealthy.

My world would be one governed by a democracy using technology to its fullest with all social issues debated publically and then voted on by the populous.
 

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Good, all these long term dole bludgers can go and find work.

You are aware about 25% of those receiving unemployment benefits are people with disabilities?

The unemployment rate for those with disabilities has continued to rise, with labour force participation now 15-30% lower than those without (depending upon age)

Newstart is just a fraction of the welfare budget, around $900m of a $150-160b budget. Most welfare is going to the aged pension, family tax benefit, disability support benefits, and the ndis.
 
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With charity the individual is making the free choice to help others, they are not having money forcibly taken by the government.

Capitalism has room for things to be done as a collective but that should be kept to a minimum. The individual first and the collective 2nd.

In other words government should only do what the private sector can not or will not do.

Private health, private education, religious education. Interested if you consider them collective?

Football clubs. Any not for profit?
 
You didnt answer my questions


At all - you just bloviated your way around them as they are too hard.

1) i didnt say what we need - im saying what we have - at the moment we deliberately have people out of work - at the moment it is economic policy to have a percentage of people out of work and scrabbling for jobs.

So given that is the actual policy of government at the moment can you please answer the question - to whit ;

Given that its a deliberate policy to have structural unemployment - why are you so angry that people are on the dole?


2) im not asking whether you believe automation will lead to more or less jobs.

im asking you to suppose that it does for the sake of argument.

A hypothetical. So if automation does start killing jobs and the replacement rate is slower than the rate at which jobs are eliminated

At what stage do you stop calling people bludgers - 10%? 20%? 90%

And

3) i was predicating this on most menial jobs being automated.
GC's modus operandi.
 
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Hed probably be shocked to know that ayn rand died having claimed a significant amount of social security and been a significant burden to the state with medicare.

I guess hes lucky emails werent around then ..

Aren’t Ivanka and Chelsea best buddies? So not that fanciful an idea
 
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018...odANHQ9EPEcNprE7YPJp3sbJnmCOTtroc&pfmredir=sm


Tax concessions to the wealthiest fifth of households are costing the federal budget about half as much as the total cost of welfare payments and 6 times the cost of newstart.

Discuss:
1. Small business earning $200k is very deceptive. Revue is not profit.
2. "All four families have two children, but while the family living entirely on government benefits receives about $810 a week, a family with one high-income, full-time worker and one part-time receives nearly $1,400 in tax concessions and government benefits."
Again is deceptive. Workers pay tax and workers product something that helps the community. Look at the total net loss or gain.
The working families get wealth in terms of child care rebate. That rebate goes to child care centres and workers which produce economic activity.
3. People from welfare families has a higher cost to the community in terms of law and order, and health care.

The thing I see is that the very rich get massive tax breaks and it's up to the lower/middle class workers to fund the rich and welfare families.
 
I dunno friend

He was a big deal on Bay 13 a long time ago and to his credit he's cleaned up his posting style/grammar a bit ;)

Hence why I likened him to Zyzz in that friendlyjordies video like a month ago :p


Not all people get injured at work though and aren't entitled to insurance/workcover etc

Some injuries (back injuries for example) may not even happen at work, though the stress of the job over an extended period of time may be enough to do something to the back elsewhere, be it gardening at home or whatever.

The disability pension is extremely hard to get these days, I've seen reports of even some people who are paraplegic in wheelchairs who aren't even eligible for it for some stupid reason, while others have to wait 6-12-18 months to get their claims finalised.

Yes I agree with that principle that people need to look for work if they're in that position, but other things need to be considered also.

People get quotas that they need to hit every month in regards to their job search efforts, otherwise it's at the job centres discretion whether they're satisfied with their job search attempts or not.

Not everyone has access to a car or public transport

Not all the time there are jobs in the local area available

Some jobs available are suited for some people, and others aren't suited at all, be it not skilled, injury being an obstacle etc

Some jobs are up to 2 hours away too, what's the point in making that trek every day wasting half your working week? All your energy is gone getting there and back. Where's the reward in going to work? That would feel like a chore. For low income earners it'd be a costly move moving away from where you're settled to get closer to work also for example, takes away vital social support too.

There's a different market and situation for everyone and far too often fit, healthy, skilled clients who are just between jobs that can work any old job get treated the same as your real obstacle type clients, ones with disabilities, long term injuries, depression and so on. Some people need more help than others to be put on the right path and that extra help is not available at these places, while the best centrelink has to offer is just a social worker to talk to once a blue moon. The work available has to be the right work, right terms, low risk, that allows people to get on with life. People like you wonder why so and so dole bludger doesn't want to work, I say rubbish, there's more to it most of the time imo. If you take welfare away then more problems will happen.

This isn't about making the poor rich, it's about being up to date with inflation and the rising costs of living so people who are struggling can provide for themselves and their families as comfortably as possible, while putting that money back into the economy so it constantly recycles itself.

The top end of town should be setting the example for the community that nets a positive trickle down effect, but far too often they do things in the best interests of themselves as far as I'm concerned. Far too often materialism and greed gets the better of these people. Ease up on the 500k Christmas bonuses maybe (maybe that absurd bonus should be shared around effectively with the hundreds or thousands of working class who make your company tick who could use the money better), ease up on the 497 negatively geared investment properties you have, ease up on going for a holiday 3 times a year, or the 5 100k+ cars you have in your Toorak mansion garage. People can survive without such luxuries, yet means the world to the top end...

Far too often munny is the number one motivator for top end people. Munny is important for sure, but it's not the most important thing going around. Other more important things in life imo.

Doesn't matter if you hurt yourself at work or not. The majority of people I work with are in the superfund that work uses.

SCIP (salary continuance insurance program) kicks in after 90 days. If you're lucky enough, you'l have enough sick, annual and long service leave to see you through that 90 days.

Iirc, it's then 75% of your base wage only for up to 2 years.
 

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