News Taylor Adams coming to Pies? Hine: "Yeah, I think so"

What do you reckon about this drawn out trade?


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year of the cat

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And indeed it has been lovely to have you as our guest during these trying negotiations Year Of The Cat.

I too am fascinated with the workings of this trade and also the potential symmetry involved. The Cats nailed last year's marquee player in Josh Caddy, reportedly a one time Collingwood supporter whose uncle worked at The Collingwood Football Club and whose family lived in Eltham, which is really not that far from ... Collingwood.
Thanks very much WW. It's actually been surprisingly pleasant chatting with you guys as well! Always good to have a bit of friendly debate. My gut feel is that you guys will end up doing a direct deal of Shaw for Adams (with maybe a pick or two being exchanged). If I was Shaw I'd jump at that sort of contract to finish my career on.
 

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Jelly Bean

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FMD we do everything well and we've won 2 flags in more than half a century. It just doesn't add up. Armed with a very very good list we won 1 flag and went close to a second.

We do draft well these days. We develop talent well. Unfortunaly we also backslap and cheer like screaming schoolgirls better than anyone else and we redefine success to include our results with excuses to qualify for our failings.

The results are the arbiter. Everything else is subjective.

Do we really think our results are good? Not good by Melbourne's measure and not good by comparrisons to averages but good bty measure against thn best? We should be nothing short of the best resouced and most successful club but here we are yet again wasting the chance to win multiple flags.

Hawthorn are the measuring stick. They draft, develop, trade and maintain well and they win flags through and accross eras. Unless we do everything better than everyone we won't beat everyone. Egos have once again taken control and sucked the potential from our success.
Sorry MarkT2, but it isn't clear hear what you are actually recommending. What would you trade for Adams? What would you do about Shaw? What would you do about our list? What would you do about our coaching panel?
 
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Or, we now use our Thomas compensation pick 11 and give it to GWS for Adams.

Then we trade Shaw to GWS for pick 9. If things break-down with Shaw we keep him.

So, Adams and 9 OR Adams and Shaw. I think you'll find it will work out something like that.
When does the compensation pick get announced though? We all know it will be the first rounder, but you cant trade it until you know what it exactly is. If Shaw declares interest in going to geelong, sitting on your heels may see you loose adams to Geelong.......

So effectively the question is how much do you want adams, because both you and Geelong will be after him.

Thats why i said you first rounder (not the compo pick). It is an interesting scenario. I think anyway.

Basically:
Collingwood & Geelong after Adams.
GWS & Geelong after Shaw.

- Adams wont mind collingwood or Geelong
- Shaw will only want one of either money or a shot at a premiership

So ......heaps of scenarios
 

The Royal Sampler

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The results are the arbiter. Everything else is subjective.
So, objectively in an 18 team competition if we're doing well we should be winning a flag more often than once in every 18 years. How do you gauge whether a decision was good or bad in the interim?
 

Vinnie Vegas

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FMD we do everything well and we've won 2 flags in more than half a century. It just doesn't add up. Armed with a very very good list we won 1 flag and went close to a second.
We've also won 2 flags in 23 years, and 1 flag in 4 years... We can't erase the past and retroactively have won more flags in the last 50 years.

We've positioned ourselves well in recent years and kept ourselves competitive, which has resulted in one flag, and we're all hoping that it may lead to more. Your precious Hawthorn had 5 years in between drinks after winning in 2008... If we win one in the next two years we'll be keeping pace with the standard setter that you're worshipping.

However, more important is WTF does any of this have to do with Taylor Adams?
 

Shpeshal Ed

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FMD we do everything well and we've won 2 flags in more than half a century. It just doesn't add up. Armed with a very very good list we won 1 flag and went close to a second.

We do draft well these days. We develop talent well. Unfortunaly we also backslap and cheer like screaming schoolgirls better than anyone else and we redefine success to include our results with excuses to qualify for our failings.

The results are the arbiter. Everything else is subjective.

Do we really think our results are good? Not good by Melbourne's measure and not good by comparrisons to averages but good bty measure against thn best? We should be nothing short of the best resouced and most successful club but here we are yet again wasting the chance to win multiple flags.

Hawthorn are the measuring stick. They draft, develop, trade and maintain well and they win flags through and accross eras. Unless we do everything better than everyone we won't beat everyone. Egos have once again taken control and sucked the potential from our success.
Mick is gone now dude. Don't stress.

That "success at all costs" attitude is filtrating through slowly. Once it's settled in, we'll all be much happier.
 

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FMD we do everything well and we've won 2 flags in more than half a century. It just doesn't add up. Armed with a very very good list we won 1 flag and went close to a second.

We do draft well these days. We develop talent well. Unfortunaly we also backslap and cheer like screaming schoolgirls better than anyone else and we redefine success to include our results with excuses to qualify for our failings.

The results are the arbiter. Everything else is subjective.

Do we really think our results are good? Not good by Melbourne's measure and not good by comparrisons to averages but good bty measure against thn best? We should be nothing short of the best resouced and most successful club but here we are yet again wasting the chance to win multiple flags.

Hawthorn are the measuring stick. They draft, develop, trade and maintain well and they win flags through and accross eras. Unless we do everything better than everyone we won't beat everyone. Egos have once again taken control and sucked the potential from our success.
Aren't we taking care of this now? Late 90s we were stuffed. It's all part of a long term rebuild. Stage 1 - Mick and Eddie rebuilt the Club on and off the field. Didn't matter what style as long as we got stronger and played finals. Stage 2 - Now we are back at the top end, it's time to rebuild the Club for long term success. This includes creating a culture that is continually hungry for more success. As a LIV fan hate to say it, but look at MAN U. SAF didn't do that in a season. It was a long road for them to be as successful as they were. LIV has that challenge now - I often see a lot of parallels between the Pies and LIV.
 

Vinnie Vegas

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Josh Thomas is the long term replacement for Ball.
I think Josh Thomas probably has a better role as the upgrade on Blair while Taylor Adams is replacing Ball.

Josh Thomas has got pretty handy pace and footskills for someone who can win the hard ball like he can, but Taylor Adams is a very solid young man who's got the frame to withstand the beating that Ball takes regularly.

Could see Taylor Adams taking over from Ball in the "always has his head bandaged" stats too.
 

jonbe54

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Sorry MarkT2, but it isn't clear hear what you are actually recommending. What would you trade for Adams? What would you do about Shaw? What would you do about our list? What would you do about our coaching panel?
For some 'tis easier to rant in the dark than to light a single candle :rolleyes:
 

MarkT2

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So, objectively in an 18 team competition if we're doing well we should be winning a flag more often than once in every 18 years. How do you gauge whether a decision was good or bad in the interim?
Given some clubs haven't won more than once in a hundred years the averages are irelevent - to us. As I said, measure at the top end. In simple terms unless we win more flags than anyone else we aren't making use of the comparative advange we should should get from being the biggest and most exposed club in the comp. It isn't something you can put an exact number to and even if you did and achieved it you would have to then aim higher again. You can't ever really be satisfied. That's actually what went wrong in the first place after we dominated the landscape in the 30s. We became satisfied and arrogant and egos took control. We thought it was such a prevelidge to play for us we fell behind everyone that kept working hard. Same happened to Melbourne.
 

Shpeshal Ed

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I think Josh Thomas probably has a better role as the upgrade on Blair while Taylor Adams is replacing Ball.

Josh Thomas has got pretty handy pace and footskills for someone who can win the hard ball like he can, but Taylor Adams is a very solid young man who's got the frame to withstand the beating that Ball takes regularly.

Could see Taylor Adams taking over from Ball in the "always has his head bandaged" stats too.
Furry muff.

Either way.
 

Shpeshal Ed

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Given some clubs haven't won more than once in a hundred years the averages are irelevent - to us. As I said, measure at the top end. In simple terms unless we win more flags than anyone else we aren't making use of the comparative advange we should should get from being the biggest and most exposed club in the comp. It isn't something you can put an exact number to and even if you did and achieved it you would have to then aim higher again. You can't ever really be satisfied. That's actually what went wrong in the first place after we dominated the landscape in the 30s. We became satisfied and arrogant and egos took control. We thought it was such a prevelidge to play for us we fell behind everyone that kept working hard. Same happened to Melbourne.
On average, Hawthorn win a flag every 5 years.

I'd be very happy with those sorts of results.
 

Old Spice

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Since the AFL came into being in 1990 we've won two flags, Hawthorn three. We've been in 5 grand finals in that time (excluding 2010 draw), Hawthorn have been in 4.

I don't think it's anywhere near as stark as has been suggested. Hawthorn have a 75% win rate, we have a 40% win rate. I'd add to that fact that we've been incredibly unlucky in losing 3 of the 5 GF contests against the best two teams in the modern era.

We recruit and develop really well imv.
 

jonbe54

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Since the AFL came into being in 1990 we've won two flags, Hawthorn three. We've been in 5 grand finals in that time (excluding 2010 draw), Hawthorn have been in 4.

I don't think it's anywhere near as stark as has been suggested. Hawthorn have a 75% win rate, we have a 40% win rate. I'd add to that fact that we've been incredibly unlucky in losing 3 of the 5 GF contests against the best two teams in the modern era.

We recruit and develop really well imv.
Currently Hawks are the love child of the media - some people swallow the pill without checking the sugar coating. . . or checking the packaging ;)
 

MarkT2

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Sorry MarkT2, but it isn't clear hear what you are actually recommending. What would you trade for Adams? What would you do about Shaw? What would you do about our list? What would you do about our coaching panel?
Shaw? I wouldn't have backed ourselves into a corner to begin with. In fact I wouldn't have let the internal issues take control with the result being a cleanout in a premiership capable list. We just simply shouldn't be losing Thomas and Shaw. We shouldn't be at the point of no return. That's the real management issue that decides if you win flags, not what we now get for them. What we do now is simply make the best of the mess we have not managed well enough thus far.

IMO this all traces back to what I said at teh start of the year. Leading teams was not the solution. The fact that we thought we needed them is the indicator of the problem which so clearly has now manifested itself.

These sorts of programs will eventually work becasue you will end up with the players that they will work on and the ones that they won't work on will be exited or fall by the wayside. You just don't need that path when you already have the squad to win the flag though. You create a problem than have the mechanism to potentially fix it and then hope that is good enough to win flags. Much better to wait until the flags are banked and the the need arises as you move to a younger squad via natural attricion.


So, with that in mind, to more directly answer your question, I'd love to trade Shaw to Melbourne along with pick 11 for pick 2 or even better to GWS along with pick 11 for pick 1. If it took another player of say a Blair quality then fine. If it took Goldsack then that would be ok as well although not my preference. If it took Sinclair then "where do I sign!"

Failing that, then 9 for Shaw is ok. Maybe 9 & Adams for Shaw, our second round pick and a player or two. I am not sweating about Adams. What should we pay for Adams. I haven't seen a huge amount of GWS so I can't really say defintively but given where he was drafted a mid first round pick is probably about right. The thing is, if we only had 1 mid first round pick, I don't think he's the skill set we need. What we need is the skill set of Dale Thomas - pace and skills. We are simply too slow and kick far too poorly to win a flag now. I may under rate Adams but I am more concerned with his attributes v what we need than his absolute quality or otherwise.
 
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