Taylor up forward... Why?

[Seeds]

I think Lonergan will be pushed out, not unlike Mooney in his final year. Even allowing for his brilliant game against Hawthorn in the first final, I think his days are numbered. His contract has been a sticking point a few times now, I think they are keen to move on from the Lonergan era.

Scott himself said last year, they probably got Henderson 1 year before they needed him. I think Henderson will be settled as number 1 key defender next year and Lonergan is an emergency option.

I doubt it unless his form deteriorated. They wouldn't be training Taylor as a forward if they thought that.

 

[bulletproof]

I doubt it unless his form deteriorated. They wouldn't be training Taylor as a forward if they thought that.

I am hoping that Taylor forward is more of an emergency situation and given his experience he knows defence well enough to not train there and then play there comfortably.

But you are probably right.

 

[Seeds]

And before this experiment actually begins I want to be on record to say that Taylor's kicking for goal will be disappointing generally. Like Graham, for some reason those born and raised down back, even if they are lovely kicks, struggle to kick it through two white sticks. Particularly the lefties.

#7ironHarry

Cos Kingsley, Mooney, Playfair, Hawkins were all fabulous kicks who never had regular kicking yips. Of all our tall forwards only Ottens and maybe Pods didn't have regular bouts of kicking yips. Although Ottens gave a good impression in the 07 GF. Graham atleast had the excuse that most of his shots were 20-30m further out than the other forwards.

 

[Seeds]

I am hoping that Taylor forward is more of an emergency situation and given his experience he knows defence well enough to not train there and then play there comfortably.

But you are probably right.

Possibly. We will find out soon.

 

[Partridge]

Orielly was an exceptional fullback at Geelong. Only Scarlett was better in the past 30 years at Geelong.

We've been fortunate because since O'Reilly started we've always had a quality fullback:

1993-1994: O'Reilly
1995-1998: Graham
1999-2008: Scarlett
2009- now: Lonergan

But I agree, that position would have been O'Reilly's for as long as he wanted. Definitely did not want him to leave.

 

[Partridge]

Cos Kingsley, Mooney, Playfair, Hawkins were all fabulous kicks who never had regular kicking yips. Of all our tall forwards only Ottens and maybe Pods didn't have regular bouts of kicking yips. Although Ottens gave a good impression in the 07 GF. Graham atleast had the excuse that most of his shots were 20-30m further out than the other forwards.

One other name. Nathan Ablett was a very good kick for goal.

 

[Seeds]

We've been fortunate because since O'Reilly started we've always had a quality fullback:

1993-1994: O'Reilly
1995-1998: Graham
1999-2008: Scarlett
2009- now: Lonergan

But I agree, that position would have been O'Reilly's for as long as he wanted. Definitely did not want him to leave.

Yep it was a massive loss. Forced Graham to become the full back when he was probably better suited to centre half back or becoming a forward. Albeit graham was still a reasonable full back in his own right.

 

[Hamingja]

They have to try something the 2016 forward structure was shocking.

The resting ruck as key forwards didn't work.

A Hawkins plus mediums that people have thrown up would only work if we had 3-4 mediums capable of kicking 30+. Menzel is the only one that you could bank to do that if he played out the season and he is not even training at the moment.

They have 2 options really. Swing Taylor/Henderson forward or back in Black/House at CHF.

When Taylor is not Carey incarnate I expect this move will be potted ferociously but it is probably the best of a lot of bad options.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Honestly it's a stupid idea, Harry is the most underrated defender in the comp and I fear playing him elsewhere more and more goals will leak.

Harry Taylor is most definately NOT an underrated defender ! 2 all Australian selections consistently a top 3 Key defender in the comp

 

[Partridge]

They have 2 options really. Swing Taylor/Henderson forward or back in Black/House at CHF.

When Taylor is not Carey incarnate I expect this move will be potted ferociously but it is probably the best of a lot of bad options.

It's the outcome of failing to develop a decent key forward in the last 5 years (forgivable), as well as having three key forward options all come out of contract at the same time (less forgivable).

 

[Ray Donovan]

Mods merge this if it's already being discussed somewhere else...

Am I the only one who thinks this is a stupid idea? In 2016 he was the number 1 defender in the AFL for average goals kicked on him...

We don't need two talls up there... Play small, kick it to Hawkins who will have more space and he can crum to Motlop/Menzel/McCarthy and resting mids...

Besides, if Scott is going to persist with playing Smith and Stanley in the same team (also a questionable decision) then one can rest up forward as the 2nd tall.

Yet another silly move by Chris Scott...

Yeah I also like harry at CHB he is our best key defender. As good as lonergan is at defending Harry Taylor is an offensive weapon from half back intercept possessions reading the play are exceptional qualities. Disposes the ball by hand and foot extremely well for a guy his size.

He has skills that only a few possess he is a student of the game cuts angles. Knows his role and opponents where to stand to guard space.

And a guy like kolodashnij will get an extra year to grow into a supporting key defender role.

As I have become more intriqued by

Mackie. Taylor. Kolodashnij
Thurlow. Henderson Tuohy

This group replace Mackie if you like I know lonergan will play large portion of season. All very skilled by foot Henderson and kolodashnij are both very athletic for size and the latter is better suited to playing on a mid forward a stringer crameri type. Just improves our mobility and foot penetration from half back. I know duncan, Guthrie etc will also float back I just like more mobile defences in the modern era. Where kicking skills are king and mobile forward lines are the future. The hulking Travis cloke full forwards are coming to an end. So our defensive strategy needs to follow.

Taylor will play forward to start as an absolute measure of desperation and staying competitive. Will he do enough to make it a success probably he is a star veteran player who has spent time in that position throughout big games. So will be serviceable but Hawkins, Taylor, Smith and Stanley are our key forwards that's a slow group. And one of them has kicked over 35 goals in a season.

Take your best key defender throw him forward stop development at CHF to be competitive seems very Chris Scott like. Just like giving away a swag of picks for mature vets

 

[Willo_]

And before this experiment actually begins I want to be on record to say that Taylor's kicking for goal will be disappointing generally. Like Graham, for some reason those born and raised down back, even if they are lovely kicks, struggle to kick it through two white sticks. Particularly the lefties.

#7ironHarry

 

[Partridge]

Watched the 89 semi against Melbourne last weekend. There is no way I'm taking Mooney over a fit Stoneham. Stonehams ability to cluck contested marks in the pouring rain and then play on from the mark and side step midfielders with ease has never been repeated by a big man in 30 years. Stoneham had consistency issues, often associated to numerous injuries he carried even before the broken leg, but when he was fit he was unstoppable.

Ultimately he wasn't consistent enough. For someone with the reputation of being an elite key forward he never kicked more than 39 goals in a season.

I'd argue Mooney from 2006-2009 was every bit as good as Stoneham.

 

[Ray Donovan]

They have to try something the 2016 forward structure was shocking.

The resting ruck as key forwards didn't work.

A Hawkins plus mediums that people have thrown up would only work if we had 3-4 mediums capable of kicking 30+. Menzel is the only one that you could bank to do that if he played out the season and he is not even training at the moment.

They have 2 options really. Swing Taylor/Henderson forward or back in Black/House at CHF.

When Taylor is not Carey incarnate I expect this move will be potted ferociously but it is probably the best of a lot of bad options.

Our small forward department is fine and dangerous Menzel And motlop both kicked 30 odd last season. Throw in danger spending more time forward that's a dangerous mix. McCarthy kicked enough 15-20. But smith and stanley averaged under a goal a game collectively and kersten kicked around 20 So its the tall department that needs work. And Henderson forward in prelim when he had played about 2 matches there all season expected to be cohesive with Hawkins coming off injury. Against an organized defence is poor coaching which is what harry Taylor will become its the same move with more thought over a longer time scale. He will be serviceable just rob peter to pay Paul. And stop development of forwardline so he can continue to play his favoured setup which become ineffective

 

[Ray Donovan]

As a forward what is Taylor capable of that Stanley isn't?

Contested marking, kicking goals, handballing, kicking, clean hands, create space, contesting possessions bring the ball to ground.just all that

Stanley can tap the ball better from a throw in

 

[00VicWard001]

Hawkins will kick 50-60 and menzel will kick 30 like last year if he plays 3/4 of the games. Whether we can find a reliable third goalkicking player in there will determine a lot of whether we win the flag.

This is the point. Taylor only needs to kick 30 and the flow on is that Hawk or Menz kick more since they won't have two on ones.

Taylor just needs to straighten us up, be involved and be legitimate option and the rest falls into place.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Taylor is done as a defender. May be done as a footballer. But let's give him a shot in the forward line first before we retire him.

Seeds if Taylor is done as a defender and footballer and he is clearly in our top 6 players we are a genuine bottom 4 team this season

 

[Seeds]

Ultimately he wasn't consistent enough. For someone with the reputation of being an elite key forward he never kicked more than 39 goals in a season.

I'd argue Mooney from 2006-2009 was every bit as good as Stoneham.

Consistency was his issue. Happy to agree on that. His peak was a lot higher though. When ranking who was best the big question is how do you compare consistency vs peak performance. No one has ever come up with an objective way to compare the two. This is why I caveated my post with if he is fit. I do believe a lot of his consistency issues (although not all) were injury related. Geelongs whole 1993 season fortune turned around At the end cos Stoneham came back from his injury break finally fit and then simply dominated the best teams in the league kicking 17 goals in 4 weeks playing as a lead up centre half forward.

 

[Partridge]

Consistency was his issue. Happy to agree on that. His peak was a lot higher though. When ranking who was best the big question is how do you compare consistency vs peak performance. No one has ever come up with an objective way to compare the two. This is why I caveated my post with if he is fit. I do believe a lot of his consistency issues (although not all) were injury related. Geelongs whole 1993 season fortune turned around At the end cos Stoneham came back from his injury break finally fit and then simply dominated the best teams in the league kicking 17 goals in 4 weeks playing as a lead up centre half forward.

That one wasn't injury. It was suspension. He got three weeks for kneeing after the Footscray game.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Its a stupid idea if it becomes a case of "robbing Peter to pay Paul", i.e., if Lonergan, Kolo, Henderson and others falter. But if they hold up in defence and Harry provides a genuine second KPF focal point, then we will be saying, "Why did it take so long?"

Well when you take your best key defender multiple all Australian 2010-2013 send him to centre half forward. For no other reason than because we lack viable options

Pretty much the definition of that quote.

 

[Hinkley29]

Cos Kingsley, Mooney, Playfair, Hawkins were all fabulous kicks who never had regular kicking yips. Of all our tall forwards only Ottens and maybe Pods didn't have regular bouts of kicking yips. Although Ottens gave a good impression in the 07 GF. Graham atleast had the excuse that most of his shots were 20-30m further out than the other forwards.

Ottens was a good kick for goal at Richmond. He was an average (at best) kick for goal at Geelong. His injuries affected his kicking big time - in his last 6 seasons he kicked 86 goals at a 57% accuracy rate (without counting any that he sprayed out on the full).

Pods was at 64% for his career.

Mooney by comparison kicked at 59% across his career.

Hawkins is currently at a very healthy 65% for his career.

 

[Seeds]

Ottens was a good kick for goal at Richmond. He was an average (at best) kick for goal at Geelong. His injuries affected his kicking big time - in his last 6 seasons he kicked 86 goals at a 57% accuracy rate (without counting any that he sprayed out on the full).

Pods was at 64% for his career.

Mooney by comparison kicked at 59% across his career.

Hawkins is currently at a very healthy 65% for his career.

Hawkins has definitely improved a lot but he was average in his first 5 years.

Yep my view on Ottens is partially clouded by his Richmond days. Ok so no ottens then. That makes it only Pods and Hawkins for the second half of his career and Ablett for his small career.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I am seriously getting excited about our attacking defence. It is seriously fast and has quality use. And they are big agile flankers too who will hammer some small forwards. I can seriously see Bews, Tuohy, Stewart and Thurlow hunting and hurting (in fair play) smaller forwards like Betts and Rioli. The bigger guys like Kolo, Lonergan and Hendo spoiling, the smaller guys swooping on the balls and rebounding it out at pace. )))

And if they link right with Danger, Guthrie, Lang, Cockatoo, Mots and Duncan, that forward line is going to be fed quality balls repeatedly to one on one or two on two contests. Now, think Hawk or Taylor lingering at half forward and delivering sharp passes to the other leading back at them from the goal square. Or Danger, Cocky, Guthrie and Mots taking shots from 50, or Duncan, Lang, Mots and Selwood spotting up Taylor or Hawkins, or Menzel or Hawk one out in the goal square, McCarthy, Lang, Mots or Cockatoo roving off the feet of the big forward (obviously we don't have multiple Langs, Motlop's, Cockatoo's and Duncan's in the team, but I'm painting a picture of the scenarios).

Definitely a tantalising bunch of scenarios your pitching!!! Love it.

Think when a lot of people give our forward line shit, they tend to forget that a lot of it is out of their control and is about the quality of the work and structures further up the ground.

We tended to hold onto the ball a lot more last year and move it slower and more precisely, we often had our forward line flooded and exposed for rebounds. In all fairness to our forward fifty, it is not easy to score when you have your front half flooded. These sort of scenarios often saw us go for options floating into holes inside 35-50m out. Your clearly not going to get Hawkins or Menzel charging out unmanned in these situations, they are the first that get covered in the flood backs. So fairness where fairness is due to our better forwards with a lot of our game style last year.

If we start to see more fast break open football with fluency from the back half, I expect to see our more dominant forwards play a more prominent role in the front half with space to work into a bit more. Could mean a bigger year for Hawkins Taylor and Menzel.

It really does depend on the architecture of the work done to get the ball into fifty that will determine a lot of our forward success and in particular which types of players the sort of entry is more suited too.

Honestly I don't think a lot of the modern ball movement into fifty has suited Hawkins, definitely not the way we have moved it anyway.

 

[Seeds]

Well when you take your best key defender multiple all Australian 2010-2013 send him to centre half forward. For no other reason than because we lack viable options

Pretty much the definition of that quote.

Except for the fact it makes our defence better because we are playing too many talls currently and reducing it by one, it almost doesnt matter which one, will improve the defence balance. Plus Taylor today is not Taylor of 3 years ago.

 

[ATSAM]

Ultimately he wasn't consistent enough. For someone with the reputation of being an elite key forward he never kicked more than 39 goals in a season.

I'd argue Mooney from 2006-2009 was every bit as good as Stoneham.

Agree that they were both good but different in different eras. But Stoneham was at CHF and did have one G Ablett to compete for goals