Taylor walker

[arrowman]

but hell don't criticize the club for not laying him

Well quite frankly, if that's what it takes to keep him at the club ....

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Burtons re-signing will not impact on Walker

The club knows Walkers potential, believe it or not ......and if Walker is up and firing he'll be at the goalfront round 1 next year

Burton has many other roles he can play ......including wing ....and I don't expect to see Otten on a wing next season but maybe changing off HB and in midfield rotations

BTW everyone latching onto the term frontal pressure is giving me the irrits

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Well quite frankly, if that's what it takes to keep him at the club ....

Oops

 

[razorsedge]

Look at the performance of Burton in the last three games and if you took note of TOG and stats his performance did not warrant a game last week and everything that was quoted as a reason to drop Walker did not apply to Burton. The glaring thing that stood out after Knights went off was that because Porps had not got a kick and was moved to midfileld it highlited the FACT that Burton and Hentschel are not lead up forwards and therefore the space to lead to was taken when all three with Tippett competing in the air and no crumbers.
asmall thing that I thought would it not have been an idea to take walker as the travelling emerg with Dougy and let both do the pregame warmup to experience the atmosfear at the G and then encourage them to be there next game or year instead of Davis who was playing in a final on sunday , not played a game and emerge for last three weeks ????
Norwood were out and how much would thet have helped as oppossed to training Sat morning with four players in Adelaide ???? Puzzling !!!

 

[Riggy1]

god, we have some conspiracy theorists on this board

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

So what you're saying Carl, is that Craigy doesn't want to have players who can rip games apart? Just about the most absurd thing I've read on here.

Ok, if you could just explain "not wanting us to rely on the star system" means that would be great, thanks.

Carl - I'm not going to bother quoting the stuff you wrote but did you seriously try to use the argument "what will change next year" as a way of saying we won't play Walker next year? By that argument nobody will ever go out of the side. Walker had a good first half of the year and was rewarded by playing that entire half of the year without being dropped. Eventually his offensive efforts died away and he was sent back to the SANFL. He has stuff to work on, and all reports are that he's a good kid and is happy to work on deficiencies and doesn't want to just coast by on natural talent.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will be a regular player from the beginning of next season.

Burton and Hentschel, once fit, came into the team. Walker only played at the start of the year because they were both unavailable. As soon as they were both up and about, then Walker's "form and defensive issues" suddenly got to a stage where he needed to be dropped to the SANFL.

What a load of rubbish!

If Craig got scared by star power then players like Tippett, Mackay, Dangerfield and Vince would have their circumstances engineered to lose their form

The difference is that all these guys have served some sort of apprenticeship. Vince, Mackay and Tippett have been fairly anonymous in their first seasons, had to work their way towards being a contributor at AFL level and have emgered 1-3 seasons later as stars. No engineering or handbrakes required.

Walker on the other hand was annointed as the Second Coming after Q4 vs Fremantle. And especially after performances like the Bulldogs game and the Hawthorn first half. He had climbed higher up the Superstar Pole quicker than anyone at our club since Modra. Someone hose him down, the boy's on fire!

So don't bother lumping him in with those other players. We all know he's a different case with a completely different hype level.

I'm sure Craig would be happy if Walker develops into a star player but not too quickly now. Slow and steady wins the race.

So Craig said that Walker's a prodigous talent that you lie awake dreaming about. So what? Those are just words. Look at his actions. They give a much better indication of where Craig sees him. And that is not in our best 25 from Saturday + Bock + van Berlo. So, at best, he is 28th on the list.

I think Craig sees him as a one dimensional player and that he is more comfortable trusting guys like Stevens, Hentschel and perhaps next season Davis as well, who can play at both ends and can fill a variety of roles.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

[Cap]

Well I personally believe that Walker will be as good as he possibly can at this club.

Craigy has often said that he is excited by Walker but he will take time. Regardless of talent every star takes time, the Kid is 19 and even Wayne Carey took a little bit of time before being a star.

Also Craigy's star system doesn't mean you cannot have elite players, it just means every player in the team is expected to do and be as valued the same.

 

[relapse]

what a shit thread. Even stupider than me.

Feel sorry for the mods who have to read this crap.

FWIW, Walker needs to get sat down infront of a tv, and watch a tape showing what Tippett does both in his second efforts and frontal pressure.

If he starts to do this next year he is on the way to be a great player. If he fails, well. I'll let Neil Craig decide if he deserves a 3rd chance or even more.

That is ridiculous, I would be shocked if you cant even seen the potential that walker has.

If he deserves another chance ??? are you serious

Fev almost kicked 100 last year and 80 this year and doesnt apply much defensive pressure, that isnt always any sort of indication about the type of forward a player is.

For all those saying that its either Burton or Walker, I ask why is that the case?

Last time I checked, Burton is more than capable of playing on the wing. Re-signing Burton does not necessarily mean that he is taking Walker's spot.

Can you tell me the last time that Burton played on a wing ??? Seriously 2003, 2004 ??? Have you forgotten the reason why Burton plays so far up the ground ??? Does the old "Burn it like Burton" classic thread from about 4-5 years ago bring back any memories. Burton when playing on the wing was notorious for burning the ball and turning it over. The thinking with Burton for the last few years is that the further he plays up the ground the less damage his clangers can cause.

Also, there is no reason to think that Walker couldn't force a player out of a spot with good training and preseason performances. It's a bit pissweak if the man we're touting as one of our two future forwards saviours actually requires us to delist senior players just to find him a spot in our best 22. If that is the case, the instant a different forward starts to perform he'll be out anyway.

Walker was not dropped to the SANFL because Burton was back from injury. He was dropped because his performances didn't warrant selection. Burton being back at the same time was nothing more than a fortunate coincidence.

Let me give you a quote about Burton "It was never about form with Burton, it was about him proving he could successful play through a match, Burton is an elite player who is an instant selection at this club" That wasnt a direct quote but what pretty much what Craigy said in the presser about Burton returning to the side.

This is where the problem lies, Neil Craig considers Burton a walk up start to our first 22, Walker wont ever force someone out of the side if the coach has that sort of mindset on a player.

Let me also say that Burton played some okay games, but there were some where he did very little. Saturday night was a perfect example. The issue is that we arent talking about a player in his prime, we are talking about a 32 year old player next season who still is the most selfish player on our side who should be standing up in September for us. It just seems the KPI's come out for walker yet when Burton is playing another September shocker it's all forgiven and people are desperate to see this guy play on again next year.

 

[relapse]

Well I personally believe that Walker will be as good as he possibly can at this club.

Craigy has often said that he is excited by Walker but he will take time. Regardless of talent every star takes time, the Kid is 19 and even Wayne Carey took a little bit of time before being a star.

Also Craigy's star system doesn't mean you cannot have elite players, it just means every player in the team is expected to do and be as valued the same.

Interesting point, are you alluding to the possibility that Craig will try and remove all flair from Walker's game and try and robot him which will inhibit his development ???

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Sometimes I wonder if you really believe what you type or simply taking the piss out of anyone that will bite!

Just on this, you do have a point here. Certainly at times I will post a slightly more extreme version of my opinion to help progress a debate.

If I'd given a more toned down, realistic version of what I believe to be the case with Walker, eg I don't think Craig liked the fact that Walker achieved more fame and reputation in a short space of time than team mates who had worked harder for longer, had better work ethics and perhaps followed team rules more rigidly had achieved in 3-4 seasons.

So he felt he needed to take him down a peg, make him understand that he hadn't made it yet, remind him that there was still a long way to go, perhaps take a little air out of his tyres, teach him some humility and make sure that he really cherishes an AFL birth rather than considering it his right or simply a natural extension of his talent.

This may be more palatable for people to read but I also don't think it would elicit the sort of interesting debate and discussion that is the main reason I come to this board.

So, guilty as charged to a degree but hopefully this perhaps explains the reasons why!

 

[Cap]

Interesting point, are you alluding to the possibility that Craig will try and remove all flair from Walker's game and try and robot him which will inhibit his development ???

I mean more along the lines that we don't have passengers. I think craigy is focused on flexibility, ever since we got beaten the Coasters who could move players forward or back he has had a focus to be able to do the same thing.

If you listen to Craigy's last few pressers he mentions he wants more flair, I just think he is unsure how to mix flair into a set process.

 

[relapse]

I mean more along the lines that we don't have passengers. I think craigy is focused on flexibility, ever since we got beaten the Coasters who could move players forward or back he has had a focus to be able to do the same thing.

If you listen to Craigy's last few pressers he mentions he wants more flair, I just think he is unsure how to mix flair into a set process.

What I dont understand is that you cant have discipline and flair at the same time. Disciplined play is playing to a set regiment, whereas creative flair involves taking some risks and not complying with a regimented set of rules.

It's like telling someone to drive more daring yet telling them that they arent allowed to go over 60 kph while doing it.

 

[Good Win]

Just on this, you do have a point here. Certainly at times I will post a slightly more extreme version of my opinion to help progress a debate.

If I'd given a more toned down, realistic version of what I believe to be the case with Walker, eg I don't think Craig liked the fact that Walker achieved more fame and reputation in a short space of time than team mates who had worked harder for longer, had better work ethics and perhaps followed team rules more rigidly had achieved in 3-4 seasons.

So he felt he needed to take him down a peg, make him understand that he hadn't made it yet, remind him that there was still a long way to go, perhaps take a little air out of his tyres, teach him some humility and make sure that he really cherishes an AFL birth rather than considering it his right or simply a natural extension of his talent.

This may be more palatable for people to read but I also don't think it would elicit the sort of interesting debate and discussion that is the main reason I come to this board.

So, guilty as charged to a degree but hopefully this perhaps explains the reasons why!

Walker was 18! Craig just wasn't happy with his defensive pressure. It's as simple as that! Kids (especially tall kids) don't just magically turn into stars at 18. They need to be nursed through this period and be taught to work hard and contribute what is required of them in ALL facets of the game.

I am confident that whatever strategy Craig has and will implement on Walker's development will in the long run complement him as a player. It is the 21 year old superstar we want. We are looking at the big picture here.

 

[Cap]

What I dont understand is that you cant have discipline and flair at the same time. Disciplined play is playing to a set regiment, whereas creative flair involves taking some risks and not complying with a regimented set of rules.

It's like telling someone to drive more daring yet telling them that they arent allowed to go over 60 kph while doing it.

I guess that is the challenge isn't it. In reality if he can't pull it off he will be gone (Craigy that is)

I guess its up to him to teach Walker how to be daring without speeding? I guess its possible.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

What I dont understand is that you cant have discipline and flair at the same time. Disciplined play is playing to a set regiment, whereas creative flair involves taking some risks and not complying with a regimented set of rules.

It's like telling someone to drive more daring yet telling them that they arent allowed to go over 60 kph while doing it.

Ric Charlesworth describes flair as superior practised skill. From his book, The Coach:

Whenever we see the freakish skills of Gary Ablett or Peter Daicos allowing them to score from an impossible position; whenever Mark Waugh catches effortlessly in slips or Ricky Ponting throws down the wicket from side -on; whenever Tiger Woods makes an improbable shot or we remember the scoring of Michael Jordan we are contemplating superior practised skill. In each case skill has been honed by practice in preparation for the opportunity to be expressed in competition. By practising and perfecting 'the impossible' athletes make these things happen

 

[Crow-mo]

Walker was 18! Craig just wasn't happy with his defensive pressure. It's as simple as that!

is that just like a 150 game veteran had to suddenly develop more flexibility in his game, until he miraculously came back into favour without doing anything of the sort.

sometimes coaches talk crap in the press, it happens. they make the decisions for the reasons that they do, and often they need to justify them - a necessary, but always honest evil.

 

[Vader]

is that just like a 150 game veteran had to suddenly develop more flexibility in his game, until he miraculously came back into favour without doing anything of the sort.

sometimes coaches talk crap in the press, it happens. they make the decisions for the reasons that they do, and often they need to justify them - a necessary, but always honest evil.

Shirley came back into the team because the youngsters lining up ahead of him all fell out of form - primarily Cook & Petrenko, both of whom went back to the SANFL and rarely even made the emergency list after that.

The decision to rush Burton back into the side is certainly debatable with hindsight - I would argue that he gave us nothing (other than THAT mark) after returning from the 2nd (minor) injury. However, he had the credits in the piggybank from a long & illustrious 164 game career. I'd suggest that those credits have now been spent and he goes into 2010 working from the same baseline as Davis, Walker & McKernan - assuming he's still on our list, which is by no means certain.

 

[craig crowing]

Guess main point missing here is about Walkers developement next year and beyond and what we are saying is he needs confidence from playing regularly like Tippett previous year and lesser extent Sellar growth this year .
Sellar had lot less upside than Walker but got opportunity to play regular games.
If Burton stays in mix then Walker gets less chances to play week in week out if showing some form ala Tippett last year.
Burton will not play on wing again on regular basis and would not even lead up the field on Sat when we were crying for it especially after Knights went off.
Walker might have to work on his recovery and defensive work but cant get worse than Burtons.
Also one or two of fab four have to go this year with GC having all draft picks 2011 so who out of those four do we owe another season for sentimental or other reasons if they all put their hand up.
Macca -Goody - Edwardes - Burton would surely in that order or similar but bet you find Burton number four everytime.

 

[relapse]

is that just like a 150 game veteran had to suddenly develop more flexibility in his game, until he miraculously came back into favour without doing anything of the sort.
sometimes coaches talk crap in the press, it happens. they make the decisions for the reasons that they do, and often they need to justify them - a necessary, but always honest evil.

 

[cmndstab]

This comment is not measureable so it has to be qualified as an opinion but you’re saying this as a fact; it’s simply your own speculation.

How many different reasons have surfaced for Walkers dropping?

Wasn’t the original reason given for his dismissal was his lack of frontal pleasure, and then it was his second efforts once the ball hit the ground before moving to his competitiveness by winning his own ball and now it has moved to his attack on the ball.

It’s almost something different every week, but the only comparative thing that hasn’t changed is the fact that Brett Burton come back into the side at the same time.

You keep telling yourself that and one day it may come true.

Of course it's my own opinion. None of us here are on the selection panel so we don't know what actually happened and can only speculate. In my opinion it's a fairly obvious conclusion but I'm not going to pretend that I have absolute knowledge of the inner workings of the Crows.

The reason for his dropping was not given as a lack of frontal pressure. That was cited as one of his main deficiencies he was expected to work on, and if we're to believe the rumour provided to us by a certain Broken Hill resident, he was going to be dropped for it at one stage until a late injury kept him in the side, but his defensive pressure in the couple of games before he was dropped was quite good - it was his offensive work that disappeared.

Brett Burton coming back offered the club another player that could fill the spot so that they didn't have to give Walker a game if he hadn't earnt one, nothing more. Similar to how Sellar got a game because nobody else was there to take his spot (other than Griffin, but that barely counts ) - if Moran had come back from injury and took Sellar's spot I hope people wouldn't be talking about destination disease then. This is not a slight on Sellar - he did very well when given the ball and improved a hell of a lot, but if Moran hadn't been injured, we wouldn't have kept Sellar out of the side because we hate inexperienced players, it would have been because he hadn't yet warranted knocking Moran out of the side.

Stabby - Tippett should've been dropped repeatedly last year, but he wasn't, we're now saying the dividend.

Tippett was treated last year exactly the same way Walker was treated this year. He was expected to perform, but he was given some leniency when he didn't. He rarely had two bad games in a row. Flexibility helped him too - when he wasn't able to get much of the ball or convert many oppurtunities, he was able to get hitouts in the teens. Finally, his performances dwindled to the point that he was considered a liability and he was dropped. The only difference between Walker and Tippett is that Tippett was able to earn a recall later in the year - which is probably more of an indictment on our playing list last year than ont he club's treatment of Walker.

Other than the experience of playing in a final, the experience that Tippett got out of last year's season will be basically the same as that which Walker will have from this season. He played five more games than Walker.

Burton and Hentschel, once fit, came into the team. Walker only played at the start of the year because they were both unavailable. As soon as they were both up and about, then Walker's "form and defensive issues" suddenly got to a stage where he needed to be dropped to the SANFL.

If you seriously think the plan the whole year was to give Walker games until one of Burton or Hentschel recovered well enough for the club to hand his spot to them, I don't know what to tell you. It absolutely flies in the face of every single message the club has told us this years in terms of youth. We don't put limitations on them, but we don't gift them games either. We certainly don't drop players just because they're young.

Let me give you a quote about Burton "It was never about form with Burton, it was about him proving he could successful play through a match, Burton is an elite player who is an instant selection at this club" That wasnt a direct quote but what pretty much what Craigy said in the presser about Burton returning to the side.

This is where the problem lies, Neil Craig considers Burton a walk up start to our first 22, Walker wont ever force someone out of the side if the coach has that sort of mindset on a player.

Neil Craig's point was that Burton is a proven commodity. We know what he can bring to the table. Bock doesn't need to prove his form either, the club can safely assume that they know what they'll get from him and can adjudicate his place in the side accordingly. The same is true for most senior players, particularly those that have demonstrated an ability to return from an injury in the past. Craig regularly talks about players putting "credit in the bank" in terms of coming back from injuries or playing through duress. You can bet your bottom dollar that Porplyzia will be given the benefit of the doubt in the future too. However, once they're back in the side, don't think for a second that they won't be dropped if their form warrants it, assuming there is someone there to take their place. As mediocre as Burton was (other than a few awesome marks and a couple of nice goals) he was nowhere near the levels that Walker had fallen to around the time of his demotion. They now have a preseason to demonstrate what they can do. If Walker works hard and is ready to go he'll get the nod over whoever it is that he replaces. If not, he won't. That's not bad management, it's good management.

is that just like a 150 game veteran had to suddenly develop more flexibility in his game, until he miraculously came back into favour without doing anything of the sort.

sometimes coaches talk crap in the press, it happens. they make the decisions for the reasons that they do, and often they need to justify them - a necessary, but always honest evil.

That pretty much seemed like it was proven correct the whole season, to be honest. Shirley was told he needed to develop another weapon in his game, which he really didn't do. Consequently, he was recalled sporadically to be a tagger, a role at which he was then beaten at by Doughty and consequently barely played the rest of the season. Eventually, he made it into the side but only when other players fell away.

Basically Craig was saying at the start of the year that Shirley needed to do more to be in the best 22. He didn't, and so he wasn't, relying on injuries or form lapses from other players to get a go.

 

[arrowman]

Also one or two of fab four have to go this year with GC having all draft picks 2011...

That is a fallacy, IMHO.

I agree that ideally we need to stagger the loss of those guys over a couple of years, rather than have them all drop off at the end of 2010, say. But the draft is not one of the reasons for that - the main reason is to do with game time and development of our current young players.

It's faily certain we will find enough delistings for our first 3 draft picks before we have to dip into the Goody-Edwards-McLeod-Burton bucket.

So that means we'd be delisting a Simon Goodwin, say in exchange for draft pick 70+. There's no point.

Again - not saying at least one of those guys doesn't have to go this year. But not because of the draft.

 

[arrowman]

^^^ PS and what stabby said. Outstanding post.

Another reason why BigFooty >>>> The Advertiser

 

[craig crowing]

That is a fallacy, IMHO.

I agree that ideally we need to stagger the loss of those guys over a couple of years, rather than have them all drop off at the end of 2010, say. But the draft is not one of the reasons for that - the main reason is to do with game time and development of our current young players.

It's faily certain we will find enough delistings for our first 3 draft picks before we have to dip into the Goody-Edwards-McLeod-Burton bucket.

So that means we'd be delisting a Simon Goodwin, say in exchange for draft pick 70+. There's no point.

Again - not saying at least one of those guys doesn't have to go this year. But not because of the draft.

You are right in what saying but missing the main issue if you give all these four a one year contract and they finish up end of 2010 which is really possible due to another year on and all except Goodys form under pressure was poor then you have to find four replacements in the draft that GC entry year draft picks .
Also by then if players like Kite, Jacky ,Lee ,Young etc and Reillys . Douglas . Griffin etc dont get traded and dont peform in 2010 you have some of these as well to replace.
Also good covering post Cmstab but it is about making hard decisions to give opportunity .
Have we all forgotten hard decisions made end of 97 to win our first premiership

 

[Mismatched]

You are right in what saying but missing the main issue if you give all these four a one year contract and they finish up end of 2010 which is really possible due to another year on and all except Goodys form under pressure was poor then you have to find four replacements in the draft that GC entry year draft picks .
Also by then if players like Kite, Jacky ,Lee ,Young etc and Reillys . Douglas . Griffin etc dont get traded and dont peform in 2010 you have some of these as well to replace.
Also good covering post Cmstab but it is about making hard decisions to give opportunity .
Have we all forgotten hard decisions made end of 97 to win our first premiership

This is a good point, but I think you'll find this is where we'll benefit from having a strong rookie list. IMO we'll attempt to re-rookie Moss for next year, in the hope that he can get his body right and if we do happen to have 6-7 players retire/be delisted, we'll then upgrade the likes of Henderson, Moss, Schmidt and Donnelly, as well as Martin this year will come into play, as will our NSW scholarship players.

It's hardly an ideal situation to be in, our chances of drafting half decent talent this year won't be much better than next year anyway, so we might as well hold onto these older guys as long as we can, assuming they understand that if they aren't performing they'll be dropped for our younger guys.

 

[johnnypanther]

......................................................... the main issue if you give all these four a one year contract and they finish up end of 2010 .... then you have to find four replacements in the draft that GC entry year draft picks .
Also by then if players like Kite, Jacky ,Lee ,Young etc and Reillys . Douglas . Griffin etc dont get traded and dont peform in 2010 you have some of these as well to replace.

That point you make there is not strictly correct.....because 2/4 are on our veterans list, consequently if/when all 4 retire then we do not (and indeed cannot) replace them with picks in the national draft - instead we would only have a main list of 38 and choose 2 extra rookies.

This will happen regardless because after these 4 veterans, we will have nobody eligible to go onto the veterans list until 2013 (Johncock/Thompson).