List Mgmt. TDK - Benchmarks for Success

[Winmar2Lockett]

Who's your source?


That's more than 2% of the salary cap.

The AFL is a hard cap environment. You can't go over (except in very limited circumstances- which the Saints will utilise in coming years). You can't just exceed the cap and pay luxury tax.

So how do teams plan their cap, when they've got 2%, 4%, 6% or more of their cap allocated to potential bonuses?

My source is a better source than the Herald Sun.

 

[PJays]

My source is a better source than the Herald Sun.

Ok so you don't wanna answer my other questions, I guess you're not sure and just wanna trust your source

Fair enough

Let's assume your source is right.

$1.3m still a lot. And that amount assumes he's not meeting his bonuses.

Saints will be fine in 2026 and 2027 I assume, due to banked carry forward.

But if the cap goes up 7% in 2028, it's $19.7mil

Almost 7% of the cap is a lot for anyone, let alone a ruckman who isn't meeting his bonus criteria. (Again whatever that may be).

 

[Ricmel]

N


If you hire someone on $200k a year and most of your employees are on $80k, you expect that new starter to be the a high performer, to make the team better, to meet tougher KPI's. To win employee of the month. To do all of those things.

Yes but you have to put in the right KPIs. I've never seen anyone, in any career - sport or corporate - that has as a KPI the equivalent of "to be successful you must make 3 AA's and get 300 coaches votes."

Putting all the other good reasons aside as to why that sort of metric is crazy - it is in fact arbitrary no matter what you think or how you try and spin it. Yes, judges may have expertise - it can be arguable in some cases - but that is why so many people don't like sports that rely on panel scoring - ice dancing, synchro swimming, gymnastics etc - the scoring is subject to the whim of judges, expert or otherwise. I mean look at this year. Whose idea was it to put Naicos on the bench? Who picked Battle over Wilkie?

It doesn't matter. If the team is successful who cares about AAs and Brownlows and Coaches awards. They are rewards, not goals.

 

[PJays]

Yes but you have to put in the right KPIs. I've never seen anyone, in any career - sport or corporate - that has as a KPI the equivalent of "to be successful you must make 3 AA's and get 300 coaches votes."

To the contrary, many if not most corporate organisations have a rating system in their employee review system. Managers rating staff on pre-agreed criteria. What you'd call "arbitrary".

Promotions often involve management or executives sitting around a boardroom, comparing their employees to determine who deserves a promotion.

In substance, not too different to coaches voting on their players.

If the team is successful who cares about AAs and Brownlows and Coaches awards.

Because coaches votes tell you who those actually directing the team (and their opponents) believe is influencing the result.

If it's not De Koning, is he worth $1.8m a year? (Or $1.3+ bonuses or whatever huge figure it is).

They are rewards, not goals.

Yes, and he'll get recognised if he's playing sufficiently well and the team is successful.

 

[True Believer]

Fair enough

But we still rate individual players and their contributions.

Sinclair and Wilkie have never achieved much success with St Kilda, but I'm very happy with what they do, given they're not in the top 40 highest salaries in the comp (according to the Herald Sun).

Why are you so obsessed with his salary?

Does he owe you money?

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

1. I would like him to tap to advantage more eg. Ryder
Marshall has not been able to do that

2. I would like him to use his big frame to protect our smaller mids

3. Get his big frame in the way to clear a path for our leading forwards

4. Take saving marks in the backline

5. Don't want him to be a focal point up forward, not his craft.

If he can do this consistantly & aid the team, l'm happy

He doesnt have to be star, give 100% effort, week in week out & the above qualities should benefit the team game plan

I've seen these traits in his highlights package, he just needs to elevate them more consistantly
It seems.

 

[Baldur]

In a couple of years we no longer consider his earning vis a vise the other players an issue. Then it has been a success. How we get there? Well some finals victories would be nice.

 

[smooth_mover]

Good question and worth unpacking. First of all, I think we need to put the cost to one side for one moment and just look at the position itself and our need for a Ro replacement.

I was definitely in the "get TDK" camp. Marshall has looked cooked this year as a ruck and there is a solid argument that even at his rucking best in years gone by, the best we could hope for was splitting the difference. This has really impacted the style of football we play in the middle (I don't think it was a mistake that Steele had his best years under Ryder). I think Marshall adds value in other areas, gets around, great mark, (could do without the dump kicks though) and I hope he stays. Saints TV did some analysis looking at the ruck metrics, we were last or second last on most of them. You might argue the point as to how important and influential ruck can be, but I believe a really good one or a really bad can have a really big influence.

Is TDK a really good one? ATM close but probably not there yet, but I think he could be. Particularly if the rules change. Athletic, big framed, high jumping, proto-midfielder rucks like Jackson and TDK will have a field day. So does he make us better? Yes definitely, in a number of ways, some of which are going to be subtle. Such as if he allows our midfield to get on the front foot more often and deliver quality fwd entries rather than trailing their mids looking to tackle first, hoping for a lucky ball to spill our way and hack kicking to the next contest.

So for me, key metrics:

• Changing how our midfield plays (most important) so as to maximise the potential of guys like Nas.
• Splitting if not winning the ruck contests so their midfield is not getting silver service or ours is.
• Winning contested marks around the ground or making sure ruckman like Gawn don't get it on their terms.
• Getting involved as an additional mid but giving quality possessions when getting the ball in tight (No dump kicks)

So getting back to price, is the juice worth the squeeze? Good rucks that do all of the above don't grow on trees and you need to spend the $ to get needs met from outside your organisation. Some of the internal ruck replacements suggested on here like Keeler and Heath is akin to suggesting Wilkie plays in the midfield. Yes they are tall, but they don't make the team better by playing that position, TDK does. Maybe Dodson in a few years but that is long time to wait. If he comes good, then we have a good problem.

I think if we got TDK for 700K/year we'd all be high fiving each other and salivating at the prospect of what he brings and this thread doesn't exist, but he did come at a high price and it probably comes with ramifications. The players don't exist in a vacuum and they and their agents will all be comparing themselves against him and that could have flow on effects for us. However chances are, you don't get him out of Carlton unless you spend the cash. It's not his fault that St Kilda wanted to offer him life changing money, but having taken it, the expectations are going to be unrealistic and he is very unlikely to meet them on a pro-rata what the average punter is expecting per dollar spent (Brad Hill redux). This may impact him as well as he tries too hard to justify his value? We tried spending the money elsewhere (LDU, Harley who apparently laughed in our faces and I imagine a host of others like Butters?). As I understand it, we only have so long to spend the additional cap, couldn't get anyone more impactful and although we probably paid overs IMO, we got a player that makes our team better.

 

[Captain Judd]

The AFL will propose introducing a last disposal out of bounds rule for between the arcs, that would begin from next year.

Great time to spend 1.8m on a ruckman.

 

[Opium]

The AFL will propose introducing a last disposal out of bounds rule for between the arcs, that would begin from next year.

Great time to spend 1.8m on a ruckman.

TDKs weakness was arguably boundary throw ins.

 

[Minga]

The AFL will propose introducing a last disposal out of bounds rule for between the arcs, that would begin from next year.

Great time to spend 1.8m on a ruckman.

Captain

 

[PoppedCorn]

well at least its all contained in its own thread now...

thank **** for that

 

[stfan]

The AFL is a hard cap environment. You can't go over (except in very limited circumstances- which the Saints will utilise in coming years). You can't just exceed the cap and pay luxury tax.

So how do teams plan their cap, when they've got 2%, 4%, 6% or more of their cap allocated to potential bonuses?

All Club's use Bonuses as part of players remuneration.


For example can be tied to say B+F placings. Not every player can win the B+F of course.

Another example is that a % of the Cap is retained for paying bonuses based on other performance measures. If everyone flops them the Caps will be underspent.

 

[kyrgios]

TDK -> NAS -> KING -> Goal

that is all.