Coach Teague and Shaw - Under pressure 2021?

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Blackas87

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Carlton’s best looks pretty decent under Teague. Still a young side, they need to build consistency under him the next 2 years and show improvement. Could make finals 2021 but 2022 should be the goal. If they haven’t made it by then it’ll be time to move him on.

Shaw looks lost as a senior coach. North should move on ASAP
 

Joao

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Carlton’s best looks pretty decent under Teague. Still a young side, they need to build consistency under him the next 2 years and show improvement. Could make finals 2021 but 2022 should be the goal. If they haven’t made it by then it’ll be time to move him on.

Shaw looks lost as a senior coach. North should move on ASAP
Carlton are not a young side. They should be playing finals this year or next at the latest.

Sure if Simpson and Betts retire the age comes down but then young players actually have to step up and perform and can no longer just be talented.
 

master bate

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It's hard to imagine Carlton doing so poorly that Teague is under serious pressure, but they can't give up such huge swings of goals and have to at least be respectable next year. Probably means 10 wins, but the right kind of 8 wins would keep his job I'd imagine, at least for the year after.

Shaw gets the pressure release with the full rebuild now, as long as he avoids total disaster (ie. < 4 wins) he'll be fine.
 

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showemhowtorock

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Its a hard read with Teague. Start of the year we looked to have made some massive improvements but I cant help but feel the lack of training and quick turnarounds with games has left the team taking a more conservative approach after some massive mistakes with transition football in games this year. Fallen back to their old ways of bombing down the line hoping for a miracle. Im sure teams like Geelong and the Dogs could see early on we had an offensive rebounding game which was unseen under Bolton, but that seems to have fallen away completely this late in the year.
not an excuse, every team is in those circumstances. If he was a good coach he'd find a way
 

estibador

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Carlton’s best looks pretty decent under Teague. Still a young side, they need to build consistency under him the next 2 years and show improvement.
Are they really though? I'm sure I've seen stats bandied about multiple times this year of them putting out one of the oldest sides each week.
 

Blackas87

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Are they really though? I'm sure I've seen stats bandied about multiple times this year of them putting out one of the oldest sides each week.
Yeah I reckon they are, they played with 9 players on the weekend 22 or under, and a lot those are top picks Carlton have built their list around. Walsh, Weitering, Setterfield, O’Brien, Fisher, SPS, McKay. A lot of talent in that group with a lot of development ahead.

Playing Guys like Simpson 36, Betts 33, Murphy 33, Casboult 30, Curnow 30 bump their overall average age up but their list profile is still young.

Only Fremantle played with more 22 and under players on the weekend which was 10.
 

Blackas87

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Carlton are not a young side. They should be playing finals this year or next at the latest.

Sure if Simpson and Betts retire the age comes down but then young players actually have to step up and perform and can no longer just be talented.
Sorry just seen this, see the above post, played with 9 22 and under players, only Fremantle played with more with 10. Very similar stage with Fremantle imo.
 

Joao

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Sorry just seen this, see the above post, played with 9 22 and under players, only Fremantle played with more with 10. Very similar stage with Fremantle imo.
The reason why I say they should be playing finals is because they aren't giving the key roles to the young players. Bolton did it and it got him sacked.

If you are playing Curnow, Murphy and Cripps in the guts for 80% of the game it is because you think you are in the race and your performance should reflect that. You can't hedge your bets because you have some 21yos playing on flanks. They need to put those top 10 pick midfielders in the middle then I'll take them seriously as a young side.

I suspect Carlton fans would be extremely frustrated at seeing Murphy go around again while SPS sits in the backline and Dow can't even get a game (although his performance probably doesn't warrant it atm).
 

SkyhorseTamer

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Dow can't even get a game (although his performance probably doesn't warrant it atm).
Something wrong here, he got a chance and looked horrendous. Some talk that his knee injury has just plagued him all year but then I have to question why he was given a game late in the season if he has been struggling all year with a knee. Just to smash his confidence a bit more? Doesn't make a huge amount of sense.
 

LordLucifer

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Carlton urgently need to address the assistants in the box surrounding Teague first and foremost, how Barker keeps getting a gig is beyond me.

If Teague is given the support structure he needs and the team still offers up the same poop they have this year (goal-less quarters and an inability to quell opposition run-ons) then he will not be in the job in 2022.
 

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La Dispute

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The reason why I say they should be playing finals is because they aren't giving the key roles to the young players. Bolton did it and it got him sacked.

If you are playing Curnow, Murphy and Cripps in the guts for 80% of the game it is because you think you are in the race and your performance should reflect that. You can't hedge your bets because you have some 21yos playing on flanks. They need to put those top 10 pick midfielders in the middle then I'll take them seriously as a young side.

I suspect Carlton fans would be extremely frustrated at seeing Murphy go around again while SPS sits in the backline and Dow can't even get a game (although his performance probably doesn't warrant it atm).
Murphy doesn't attend stoppages, he plays on the wing and on a forward flank. His contribution overall is pretty minimal.

Our usual stoppage setup is TDK, Cripps, Setterfield and Curnow, with Walsh and Martin attending plenty of stoppages too, and someone like Gibbons pinch hitting. There's a bit of a misconception that our older guys are doing plenty of heavy lifting, but I'd argue it's only really Curnow contributing above our expectations.

It'd be nice to get SPS playing in the midfield, but he's never really been a stoppage player either. He has actually been pretty effective in defence, with his composure and neat skills coming out. He needs to find some more attacking options when available, and that'll form a big part of his ongoing development, however he's tracking fine. I'd imagine he'll end up occupying a wing, which'll hopefully by as early as next season as we move Murphy further up the field.

The most frustrating thing is the unshakeable feeling we have botched both Top 10 picks in 2017. Neither player has fired a shot since their first years, from the outside look to have major issues with their confidence, and their value is deflating almost by the week. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both are off the list by the end of next season and almost as unsurprised if they never become capable AFL players.
 

blueboy25

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The reason why I say they should be playing finals is because they aren't giving the key roles to the young players. Bolton did it and it got him sacked.

If you are playing Curnow, Murphy and Cripps in the guts for 80% of the game it is because you think you are in the race and your performance should reflect that. You can't hedge your bets because you have some 21yos playing on flanks. They need to put those top 10 pick midfielders in the middle then I'll take them seriously as a young side.
I guess not giving key roles to young players is:
De Koning holding down the number 1 ruck spot (age 21
Mckay at Full forward (age 22)
Weitering at full back (age 22)

If curnow was fit then he holds down CHF (age 22)

So 4 out 5 of your spine is guys 22 or under but i guess we are not giving key roles to young players.
 

Joao

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Murphy doesn't attend stoppages, he plays on the wing and on a forward flank. His contribution overall is pretty minimal.

Our usual stoppage setup is TDK, Cripps, Setterfield and Curnow, with Walsh and Martin attending plenty of stoppages too, and someone like Gibbons pinch hitting. There's a bit of a misconception that our older guys are doing plenty of heavy lifting, but I'd argue it's only really Curnow contributing above our expectations.

It'd be nice to get SPS playing in the midfield, but he's never really been a stoppage player either. He has actually been pretty effective in defence, with his composure and neat skills coming out. He needs to find some more attacking options when available, and that'll form a big part of his ongoing development, however he's tracking fine. I'd imagine he'll end up occupying a wing, which'll hopefully by as early as next season as we move Murphy further up the field.

The most frustrating thing is the unshakeable feeling we have botched both Top 10 picks in 2017. Neither player has fired a shot since their first years, from the outside look to have major issues with their confidence, and their value is deflating almost by the week. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both are off the list by the end of next season and almost as unsurprised if they never become capable AFL players.
I'll take your word for most of that given you pay much more attention than me. Murphy does have a fair few clearances this year though so he must be hanging around stoppages at least a little bit (tied with Walsh as your 4th highest clearance player and 75th in the league overall).

Both of those blokes are young enough to avoid putting a line through them I think. Definitely think confidence/something mental with Dow. He's not perfect but has enough tools to be a good player.

I guess not giving key roles to young players is:
De Koning holding down the number 1 ruck spot (age 21
Mckay at Full forward (age 22)
Weitering at full back (age 22)

If curnow was fit then he holds down CHF (age 22)

So 4 out 5 of your spine is guys 22 or under but i guess we are not giving key roles to young players.
I was talking about your midfield but if you want to look at it, Jones and Casboult are still getting around and I am sure Kruezer would have played if he wasn't broken.

Not only that, but you don't really have the option to play anyone other than those blokes because you don't have other options. It's not like you have an E.Curnow equivalent KPP that is playing maggos. You do have the choice about who plays midfield and you choose older players despite having talented young mids.
 

Sirlemsip

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If Clarkson does coach anywhere after Hawthorn (which i believe is highly unlikely) I can't see him going to another one of the 'big' clubs in Carlton or Collingwood.

There might be a draw for him to go back to North (or even the Demons) because of his playing history, and he would probably prefer to stay in Melbourne than move interstate.

But I would think the most likely outcome is that Gil puts an extremely heavy briefcase on the table and gets him over to GWS for 2-3 years.
Clarko might be interested in being the first premiership coach for the club.

I still feel that Cameron should be considered the most 'at risk'. Given the quality on the list there is no excuse for some of their poor performances.
Every other coach deserves at least another year given that you can't really take 2020 as a good sample particularly for the VIC based clubs.
Shaw is looking a bit rocky, but he would benefit greatly from bringing in an older/more experienced support team.
 

Blackas87

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The reason why I say they should be playing finals is because they aren't giving the key roles to the young players. Bolton did it and it got him sacked.

If you are playing Curnow, Murphy and Cripps in the guts for 80% of the game it is because you think you are in the race and your performance should reflect that. You can't hedge your bets because you have some 21yos playing on flanks. They need to put those top 10 pick midfielders in the middle then I'll take them seriously as a young side.

I suspect Carlton fans would be extremely frustrated at seeing Murphy go around again while SPS sits in the backline and Dow can't even get a game (although his performance probably doesn't warrant it atm).
Disagree with this. Carlton haven’t played finals for many years with Murphy, Curnow and Cripps in the middle, why suddenly this year would that change?

Bu playing them in the middle isn’t gifting talented youngsters those roles, they are being taught to earn them.

They are young simply because they’re age is young, a lot of 22 and under players that were top picks, they will will develop and grow in future years.
 

RudyBlue

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We’ve performed probably somewhere around expected this year.

Most of us would be expecting finals next year.
 

Joao

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Disagree with this. Carlton haven’t played finals for many years with Murphy, Curnow and Cripps in the middle, why suddenly this year would that change?

Bu playing them in the middle isn’t gifting talented youngsters those roles, they are being taught to earn them.

They are young simply because they’re age is young, a lot of 22 and under players that were top picks, they will will develop and grow in future years.
Organic growth in the rest of the team is the obvious answer. When Curnow and Murphy were shunted they were woeful. Some of that may have been Bolton's coaching but they only got competitive when they got pushed back in when Teague came. Just because the rest of the team was dire back then doesn't mean they are immediately pardoned for missing finals this year or next.

How can they earn them with no VFL? I think they just flat out aren't good enough at the moment and that's fine but the facts are 14/22 last week have played 50+ games and 10 have played 100. Averaging 26 years and 113.5 games. That is not a young side.

They don't get pardoned because if you take out player X it drops because almost every team can say that. Most teams carry a couple of 30+ when rebuilding and they are there for good reasons.

I don't think Teague should be under pressure this year just because the year is ****ed and its his first full season, but he'll feel the blowtorch next year and rightly so if they don't make the 8.
 

Blackas87

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Organic growth in the rest of the team is the obvious answer. When Curnow and Murphy were shunted they were woeful. Some of that may have been Bolton's coaching but they only got competitive when they got pushed back in when Teague came. Just because the rest of the team was dire back then doesn't mean they are immediately pardoned for missing finals this year or next.

How can they earn them with no VFL? I think they just flat out aren't good enough at the moment and that's fine but the facts are 14/22 last week have played 50+ games and 10 have played 100. Averaging 26 years and 113.5 games. That is not a young side.

They don't get pardoned because if you take out player X it drops because almost every team can say that. Most teams carry a couple of 30+ when rebuilding and they are there for good reasons.

I don't think Teague should be under pressure this year just because the year is ****ed and its his first full season, but he'll feel the blowtorch next year and rightly so if they don't make the 8.
You can earn a spot on the training track.

9 players under 22 is the 2nd most in the comp. Most of the older blokes are average, that’s why Carlton have been rubbish for years.

It’s the young guys that will take them forward. They have been rebuilding around the guys 22 and under, their rebuild is still young, similar stage to Fremantle. Freo also has 14/22 with 50 games

It’s like your saying Fyfe, Mundy, Lobb, Hogan, Hill, Walters, Taberner are all quality senior players Fremantle should be playing finals. I’d say Fremantle are building around Serong, Cerra, Brayshaw, Darcy and co, Fremantle will rise when these guys develop.

Picking out a bunch of 100 game players doesn’t mean those players are good to take a team to finals like Richmond’s or West Coasts, they aren’t that quality.

Carlton will rise with McKay, Walsh, Weitering, Fisher, SPS, Setterfield. These guys are young, 22 and under. Their rebuild is young on a similar stage to Fremantle. I’d say Freo has better senior players though.
 
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blueboy25

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How can they earn them with no VFL? I think they just flat out aren't good enough at the moment and that's fine but the facts are 14/22 last week have played 50+ games and 10 have played 100. Averaging 26 years and 113.5 games. That is not a young side.
Basically the same as Freo last weekend
 

Joao

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You can earn a spot on the training track.

9 players under 22 is the 2nd most in the comp. Most of the older blokes are average, that’s why Carlton have been rubbish for years.

It’s the young guys that will take them forward. They have been rebuilding around the guys 22 and under, their rebuild is still young, similar stage to Fremantle. Freo also has 14/22 with 50 games

It’s like your saying Fyfe, Mundy, Lobb, Hogan, Hill, Walters, Taberner are all quality senior players Fremantle should be playing finals. I’d say Fremantle are building around Serong, Cerra, Brayshaw, Darcy and co, Fremantle will rise when these guys develop.

Picking out a bunch of 100 game players doesn’t mean those players are good to take a team to finals like Richmond’s or West Coasts, they aren’t that quality.

Carlton will rise with McKay, Walsh, Weitering, Fisher, SPS, Setterfield. These guys are young, 22 and under. Their rebuild is young on a similar stage to Fremantle. I’d say Freo has better senior players though.
Basically the same as Freo last weekend
Sure and under Ross when half the team wasn't injured we were in the 8 both for large portions of the previous two years. We fell apart when we lost key players to injuries because the kids weren't good enough to cover. This was because we were playing Fyfe and Walters 95% on the ball all year, both were AA and they dragged us over the line numerous times

This year, we sent them both to our forward line (arguably the worst in the comp) for large parts of games/the year and let Mundy do the bulk of the work with Tucker, Brayshaw and Serong. Cerra to a lesser extend as he played wing a lot and is basically our equivalent of Walsh.

So we do have similar demographics and I do agree that our senior players **** on Carlton, but we are also giving our midfielders a chance to develop as midfielders rather than stuffing them on the flanks like Ross did. If Fyfe was in the middle giving a 3rd brownlow a shake (as he probably would) then I would absolutely expect more from us because we would be sacrificing the others development to do so.
 

Blackas87

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Sure and under Ross when half the team wasn't injured we were in the 8 both for large portions of the previous two years. We fell apart when we lost key players to injuries because the kids weren't good enough to cover. This was because we were playing Fyfe and Walters 95% on the ball all year, both were AA and they dragged us over the line numerous times

This year, we sent them both to our forward line (arguably the worst in the comp) for large parts of games/the year and let Mundy do the bulk of the work with Tucker, Brayshaw and Serong. Cerra to a lesser extend as he played wing a lot and is basically our equivalent of Walsh.

So we do have similar demographics and I do agree that our senior players **** on Carlton, but we are also giving our midfielders a chance to develop as midfielders rather than stuffing them on the flanks like Ross did. If Fyfe was in the middle giving a 3rd brownlow a shake (as he probably would) then I would absolutely expect more from us because we would be sacrificing the others development to do so.
I don’t agree that playing young players on the flanks is is stuffing their development.

Petracca spent his first 4 playing years up forward but broke out age 24, Gary Ablett jnr spent his first 5 years in the forward line before breaking out at 24. Carlton has a lot of talent at 22 and under, Teague has few years of developing these guys at the right pace before you can write these guys off. I don’t think sacrificing their development.
 

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