Roast The 2004 Draft nightmare ...

[celtic_pride]

This was the draft that nabbed the Hawks, Roughead, Buddy, Jordan Lewis, Thomas Murphy, and Simon Taylor (decent ruck prospect)

Who did we get - Jordan Russell , Adam Hartlett, Luke Blackwell, and Chris Bryan ...

Plus we traded for Callum Chambers and Troy Longmuir LOL ...

The only decent player we managed to pick up from that period (IMHO) was Eddie Betts, in the pre-season draft ...

I don't think we were actually 'locked' out of the draft by then (JR was a 1st rnd draft pick), but gee whiz, I look at Hawthorn's success, and the foundations of their premiership was laid at that hands of that trade.

Admittedly true the draft that year was fairly thin after the first round, but honeslty there were a lot of players we should have taken instead of Russell or Hartlett, IE Matt Rosa, Matthew Bate, Brent Prismall, Mark LeCras, Ivan Maric (deadset future gun ruckman) Justin Sherman, Simon Taylor, Chris Knights etc..

That 10 win season, and pretty poor drafting efforts that followed in the draft, really set this club back a couple years IMHO ..

 

[HBF]

Here we go again.......

Hawthorn did very very well out of that draft, and we didn't. You simply cannot recruit with 20/20 hingsight. There could be a million reasons why players who look the goods at junior level don't come on in the AFL system.

And, why do players who were not rated highly, and picked late by clubs, come along? It's a tough gig c_p.

 

[one_twelve112]

^^^ What he said

 

[celtic_pride]

Here we go again.......

Hawthorn did very very well out of that draft, and we didn't. You simply cannot recruit with 20/20 hingsight. There could be a million reasons why players who look the goods at junior level don't come on in the AFL system.

And, why do players who were not rated highly, and picked late by clubs, come along? It's a tough gig c_p.

I think overall thoughthat Denis Pagan and co got it wrong by recruiting all those recycled playes back in 2002 and 2003 IE David Teague, Diggers Morrell, Brett Johnson, Glen Bowyer etc, all short term prospects who helped us win 10 games in that season, but at the expense of a decent DRAFTING position and draft picks ...

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but yeah the AFL's overzealous sanctions and Pagan's flawed coaching and recruiting philosphy didn't help one bit ...

Circumstances were against us in 2004, but still it does shit me somewhat looking at how well the Hawks did in that draft, compared to Carlton ...

I think it also does prove the dangers of 'trading' for unproven recycled players, I am still not convinced Richard Hadley will be at the club in 3 years time, I think unless you can get a gun like Kerr, or a future sure-bet ruckman in Warnock, going for youth in the draft is the way to go ...

I would also argue that Jordan Russell so far in his career, has not lived up to his billing of a top ten draft pick ...

 

[Salaryman]

WOW







this one hasn't been done before















Pushing the limits just to see how dumb you can come across CP??

 

[thylacine60]

WOW







this one hasn't been done before















Pushing the limits just to see how dumb you can come across CP??

Drafting always brings out your best, G-Man.

 

[Banga19]

For the picks they had, Richmond did worse

Only consolation for mine.

 

[blues4flag]

If you want to look at a nightmare draft, look no further than 2000. 3 picks in the top 15 and the best we could end up with was Wiggins. We'd have had more luck drawing names out a hat, considering Motlop, Kerr, Daniel Harris, Shaun Burgoyne, Scott Thompson and Kane Cornes all went between 4 and 20.

 

[Sublime]

If you want to look at a nightmare draft, look no further than 2000. 3 picks in the top 15 and the best we could end up with was Wiggins. We'd have had more luck drawing names out a hat, considering Motlop, Kerr, Daniel Harris, Shaun Burgoyne, Scott Thompson and Kane Cornes all went between 4 and 20.

Fact is, drafting players is alot like forecasting the weather. You can predict and 80% of the time you'll be fairly close, sometimes you'll get it wrong and then sometimes that freak storm will come out of nowhere that no one predicted and take everyone by surprise.

 

[celtic_pride]

WOW







this one hasn't been done before















Pushing the limits just to see how dumb you can come across CP??

This coming from a bloke who is an apologist for that squib Jordan Russell ?

You can't deny the facts of what Hawthorn has done since that 04 draft ..

Would Mrs Jordy Russell get a game with the Hawks right now, the answer is a resounding NO ...

 

[Salaryman]

This coming from a bloke who is an apologist for that squib Jordan Russell ?

You can't deny the facts of what Hawthorn has done since that 04 draft ..

Would Mrs Jordy Russell get a game with the Hawks right now, the answer is a resounding NO ...

And you come back with such a logical riposte !! KUDOS !!

 

[celtic_pride]

And you come back with such a logical riposte !! KUDOS !!

Okay then, you tell me why you could accuse me of stupidity, when I'm merely stating the honest truth ?

Of course Jordan Russell was a highly rated youngster at the time, but comparing him now, to the other more highly faniced players from the 2009 draft class (a few of them who were taken later on), he has been an failure thus far ...

Are you honestly happy with the club's recruiting in that period (2002 to 2004) ? It was shithouse, and admittedly we lost heavy draft picks due to the AFL, but in that time we were too focused on recycled players, and hardly any of the young players we drafted in that period were any good ...

Fact is, if we are now comparing ourselves to the Hawks (which for some reason some fans are) we are still 2 or 3 years (at the least) behind them, especially have we have no real exciting tall key position players coming through (esp in the foward line)

 

[blues4flag]

Fact is, drafting players is alot like forecasting the weather. You can predict and 80% of the time you'll be fairly close, sometimes you'll get it wrong and then sometimes that freak storm will come out of nowhere that no one predicted and take everyone by surprise.

Yeah I know, but I just can't help at times but to look back at draft and think what might have been if that Livo/Sporn/Wiggins was a Motlop/Kerr/Kornes.

If we did have a bit more luck with recruiting in 2000, chances are the Dark Age wouldn't have been so dark. It was an incredibly deep draft too - between our selections 46 and 61 (O'Keefe and Beasy), was Wakelin, Cassisi, Buchanan, Newman, Cross and Jones.

Who knows how the last 8 years would have been, but chances are Judd, Walker, Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer wouldn't be at Carlton if our fortunes had been different. No point looking at what might have been though - it's doing my head in just thinking about it.

 

[LennyLeonard]

Fact is, if we are now comparing ourselves to the Hawks (which for some reason some fans are) we are still 2 or 3 years (at the least) behind them, especially have we have no real exciting tall key position players coming through (esp in the foward line)

Hawthorn went 10 - 12 in 06 to 6th in 07 to Premiers in 08.
We went 10 - 12 in 08, should be playing finals in 09, genuine contender in 10/11. We are in a very similar position to where Hawthorn were in 06.

 

[Bluebear]

Of course Jordan Russell was a highly rated youngster at the time, but comparing him now, to the other more highly faniced players from the 2009 draft class (a few of them who were taken later on), he has been an failure thus far ...

Can you name the test used by recruiters to predict how well an 18 year old can adapt to the AFL?

 

[WeninRome]

Okay then, you tell me why you could accuse me of stupidity, when I'm merely stating the honest truth ?

Of course Jordan Russell was a highly rated youngster at the time, but comparing him now, to the other more highly faniced players from the 2009 draft class (a few of them who were taken later on), he has been an failure thus far ...

Are you honestly happy with the club's recruiting in that period (2002 to 2004) ? It was shithouse, and admittedly we lost heavy draft picks due to the AFL, but in that time we were too focused on recycled players, and hardly any of the young players we drafted in that period were any good ...

Fact is, if we are now comparing ourselves to the Hawks (which for some reason some fans are) we are still 2 or 3 years (at the least) behind them, especially have we have no real exciting tall key position players coming through (esp in the foward line)

And in all the phantom drafts at the time he was selected around the number 9 mark. Our recruiters selected who they thought (and im sure many other clubs would have) was the best possible pick at 9.

 

[Salaryman]

I think the club was slow to embrace the draft. I think the penalties certainly hurt and set us further back than we imagined. I think we are slowly getting it right. I think it is absurd to compare the Hawks 2004 draft when they had something like 4 picks in the top 20, a rebuilding model which is now being emulated by WCE......wake up people who want Kerr.....top 25 picks is the best practice for rebuilding a list (with an occasional trade for need), WCE know it, and look at how they are hoarding picks. I think the 2004 draft is too harshly assessed for reasons I've explained ad-nauseum elsewhere........post 2004 as a club we have probably cracked a fair bit better than even with our picks. What's the flowering point in starting yet another thread about it......bored much?

 

[Bluebear]

What's the flowering point in starting yet another thread about it......bored much?

Hey Gilly.....who do you think is better out of Hodge or Judd?

 

[OZBomb]

By the time it got to our pick it was Jordan Russell or Chris Egan, so I think the recruiters made the right call at the time. You don't draft with a crystal ball CP.

Overall it was a pretty rubbish draft and Hawthorn where probably the only winners from it.

 

[Salaryman]

Hey Gilly.....who do you think is better out of Hodge or Judd?

Damn fool




Gibbs !!!!

 

[Silvagnis]

If the OP doesn't like our drafting, maybe he can switch back to the Cats and enjoy their GF loss after they drafted well.

Rubbish poster who is no true blue, but a downhill skier.

Take the unlisted Parrot with you...

You try separating the first round of this draft when they're hard to split and all young guns who could add something to Carlton.

And then weigh it up the coach's needs and wants when they don't know the young players inside out.

Criticising recruiters when it's a largely thankless and tough job is a weak effort.

It's funny Pagan cops another paste for going for retreads when Guerra and Dew played a huge part in their premiership win.

Pagan was a man ahead of his time and had the right idea, but simply took the wrong players.

LOL.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

If the OP doesn't like our drafting, maybe he can switch back to the Cats and enjoy their GF loss after they drafted well.

Rubbish poster who is no true blue, but a downhill skier.

Take the unlisted Parrot with you...

You try separating the first round of this draft when they're hard to split and all young guns who could add something to Carlton.

And then weigh it up the coach's needs and wants when they don't know the young players inside out.

Criticising recruiters when it's a largely thankless and tough job is a weak effort.

It's funny Pagan cops another paste for going for retreads when Guerra and Dew played a huge part in their premiership win.

Pagan was a man ahead of his time and had the right idea, but simply took the wrong players.

LOL.

I was agreeing with you up untill I came across the bolded.

Pagan was a dinosaur, who refused to adapt to the modern game and consider the opinions of others.

Pagan drafted re-treads to fast track the development of our list for his own purposes in the hope that we would win more games (which we did) and hence save his job.

In doing this, we deluded ourselves into thinking we had a better team than we actually had, and as such we overacheived and missed out on some of the top notch players of that draft.

We paid for it in 2005, 2006

 

[Salaryman]

Whoooooosh C4 !!!!

 

[BlueYoss]

I think overall thoughthat Denis Pagan and co got it wrong by recruiting all those recycled playes back in 2002 and 2003 IE David Teague, Diggers Morrell, Brett Johnson, Glen Bowyer etc, all short term prospects who helped us win 10 games in that season, but at the expense of a decent DRAFTING position and draft picks ...

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but yeah the AFL's overzealous sanctions and Pagan's flawed coaching and recruiting philosphy didn't help one bit ...

Circumstances were against us in 2004, but still it does shit me somewhat looking at how well the Hawks did in that draft, compared to Carlton ...

I think it also does prove the dangers of 'trading' for unproven recycled players, I am still not convinced Richard Hadley will be at the club in 3 years time, I think unless you can get a gun like Kerr, or a future sure-bet ruckman in Warnock, going for youth in the draft is the way to go ...

I would also argue that Jordan Russell so far in his career, has not lived up to his billing of a top ten draft pick ...

The AFL's draft penalties and Pagan's topping up with re-treads only served to extend our time on the bottom of the ladder, but by no means left us in a worse position afterwards.

Instead of having our serious rebuilding drafts in 2002, 2003 & 2004 we had them in 2005, 2006 & 2007. While it was certainly no fun staying down the bottom of the ladder for those extra 2 or 3 years, now that we have been there and done the time and earned early picks in deeper drafts looking back now IMO we look to have established ourselves much better for long term sustained success than we would otherwise have.

Looking at some of the early picks from those drafts, 2002: Wells, Goddard, Jarred Brennan, Tim Walsh, Jarred McVeigh, Luke Brennan (Hawthorn pick 8); 2003: Cooney, Walker, Syliva, Ray, McLean, Harry Miller (Hawthorn pick 25); 2004: Delidio, Roughead, Griffen, Tambling, Franklin, Lewis; the only stand-out is really the freakish Buddy who is a once in a generation player, but even if we had stayed at the bottom in 2004 and received a priority pick, we would have been one of four teams with a priority pick in that draft and would have still been no certainties to land Buddy.

Besides, Hawthorn hardly got every call right, they got 'lucky' with Freo giving them the 2001 #1 pick landing them Hodge (but we have now lured the only player from that draft who was better: Judd!) and had their major rebuilding draft in 2004, where again they got 'lucky' with Richmond and the Doggies allowing Franklin to slide to them at pick #5. 2005 was their second rebuilding draft, they didn't do all that well with Ellis and Dowler as first round picks. So to point out our 'mistakes' and suggest that 'if only we did as Hawthorn did...' we would be better placed for success IMO is fundamentally flawed.

The timing of our rebuilding, although it took longer than we would have liked, landed us Murphy, JK, Bower (2005) Gibbs, Hammer, Grigga, Austin (2006) and Judd & Kreuze (2007) which IMO especially now in hindsight was definitely a better result for the club. Being from more recent drafts they are still too young to dominate the competition just yet, but looking at the way Hawthorn's (for the most part) inferior talented early picks have come on only serves to give me more confidence in just how dominant we will be when our superior young talent has those extra few pre-seasons under their belts.

Don't bag the baggers -GO BLUES!

 

[Silvagnis]

I was agreeing with you up untill I came across the bolded.

Pagan was a dinosaur, who refused to adapt to the modern game and consider the opinions of others.

Pagan drafted re-treads to fast track the development of our list for his own purposes in the hope that we would win more games (which we did) and hence save his job.

In doing this, we deluded ourselves into thinking we had a better team than we actually had, and as such we overacheived and missed out on some of the top notch players of that draft.

We paid for it in 2005, 2006

I was taking the piss.

Bryan is a hack, but he's still on a list and was recruited by the Pies on a two year contract.

You can't consider Bryan a strike for Hughes based on that and the fact he was pick 73.

We know Blackwell was rated when he had 20 possessions in a WAFL final that year.