Mega Thread The 2016 Buckley Coaching Discussion

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thats not what im arguing, I'm talking about how the club managed expectations
I know what you were talking about. I read your post. My response was in particular to this part of it..

"The clubs response was to present it as a continuation of the same regime albeit with a different leader, you even have the hierarchy talking premiership in the first year. What transpired was completely different, leading teams shaking up the players, turn over of list, new game plan, thats a far cry from minimalist change that that was presented."
"They should've been honest, new coach new direction rather than presenting it as a continuation of the old."


In 2012 there was minimal change. There was none of the "shaking up players and turning over the list, new game plan" you are talking about. Buckley stuck with the playing group and the existing game plan for 2012 and gave them the chance. It's unfair and untrue to say he didn't or that the club misled people about this.
 

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Kappa

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I'd argue that regarding our defenders, we have the personnel to be defensively good, but we don't have the personnel to be offensively good. Brown, Toovey and Frost are very good defensively. Reid and Goldsack are pretty good. I'm not really sure about Sinclair and Langdon.
Doesn't matter how good "Defensively" your defenders are, if none of them can get the ball out of the backline because they're all slow and can't hit the side of a barn then the opposition is going to score more goals than you.
 

PicaBoo

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What other teams?
What would of happened at any other club is probably Bucks getting a senior job at another club and cutting his teeth for 2 or 3 years while Micks Premiership window closed and he was allowed to leave the game on his terms.
A massive post. Will limit my response to this section.
A caretaker coach knowing the heir apparent is waiting in the wings to come back to the nest. Can you imagine the target he would have on his back from the Collingwood faithful? He might as well sign a fixed contract for a few years. But what if that coach succeeds. Scenario sounds familiar doesn't it.

What people fail to recognize is Malthouse was not to make way but to be elevated to higher position and mentor for Bucks. MM walked away from that. Rodney Eade came in but it is just not the same as Mick. And he left for GWS. The idea you are painting of catapulting Bucks as unproven coach into the big bad world of AFL without back up is skewed.
 

sr36

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Doesn't matter how good "Defensively" your defenders are, if none of them can get the ball out of the backline because they're all slow and can't hit the side of a barn then the opposition is going to score more goals than you.
Our defenders aren't slow. The inability to hit the side of a barn means that we can't afford to play an offensive game plan. In an open game we're going to get done. We've got a list built for hard contested footy. It's the way we have to play to be competitive.
 

Kappa

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Our defenders aren't slow. The inability to hit the side of a barn means that we can't afford to play an offensive game plan. In an open game we're going to get done. We've got a list built for hard contested footy. It's the way we have to play to be competitive.
Brown - Slow / can't kick
Langdon - Slow / poor kick
Sinclair - Fast / can't kick
Goldsack - Slowing down / ok kick
Reid - Fairly slow / good kick
Toovey - Slowing down / can't kick.
 

Moose1414

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A massive post. Will limit my response to this section.
A caretaker coach knowing the heir apparent is waiting in the wings to come back to the nest. Can you imagine the target he would have on his back from the Collingwood faithful? He might as well sign a fixed contract for a few years. But what if that coach succeeds. Scenario sounds familiar doesn't it.

What people fail to recognize is Malthouse was not to make way but to be elevated to higher position and mentor for Bucks. MM walked away from that. Rodney Eade came in but it is just not the same as Mick. And he left for GWS. The idea you are painting of catapulting Bucks as unproven coach into the big bad world of AFL without back up is skewed.
Not sure I follow this caretaker coach thing? What I was saying was if Bucks got offered a job he could of taken it, a 2-3 year deal, during which time Mick would of stayed coaching Collingwood. We could of seen what he could do with the list he had in 2012/2013 and if they fell away again the decision to not to offer him another contract and to bring Buckley back would of been an uncontroversial one. More importantly, the young side that he build that was good enough to win and contest back to back flags might of actually added another cup to your trophy cabinet. And given they only come around about once every 20 years i think Ed was a brave man for messing with a winning formula.

Saying Malthouse wasn't sacked because "technically" Eddie pressured him into agreeing to a demotion that he subsequently walked away from, having proven himself the form coach of the competition in 2011/2012, is also skewing things a fair bit.

The fascinating thing about the whole saga is that in 2009 Eddie didn't think Mick was a good enough coach to take Collingwood to its next flag, yet though that Nathan Buckley was. Then when MM proved him wrong and won one immediately, then followed it up winning the preseason, home and away season, and making the GF the next year. Eddie still though that MM wasn't good enough to take Collingwood to its next flag and that Nathan Buckley was. And here we are 5 years later, was Eddie right? Will Nathan Buckley coach Collingwood to its next flag?

My take away is that in 2009 the President of your club didn't believe his team was good enough to win a flag, and planned to fail over the 201/2011 season. When they didn't fail, which is an absolutely amazing effort by MM, he had no plan to account for that and honoured the deal he had with Buckley. Now its 5 seasons later and we're not talking Premierships or even finals and Eddie is saying he'll sack Buckley without hesitation if thats what he thinks is the right decision for the club. What is it about Eddie's decision making throughout that gives people confidence he's capable of making the right decision about who should coach the Collingwood Football Club going forward?
 

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sr36

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Brown - Slow / can't kick
Langdon - Slow / poor kick
Sinclair - Fast / can't kick
Goldsack - Slowing down / ok kick
Reid - Fairly slow / good kick
Toovey - Slowing down / can't kick.
My take on pace.
Toovey, goldsack, Sinclair - fast
Langdon- average at worst
Reid and brown - average to above average for position.
The rest of our team struggles for pace. Our defenders don't.
Back to the original point. Even if you are correct, why would you want these guys to play an attacking gameplan, which would usually imply open space where their kicking skills and what you consider to be a lack of pace, will be further exposed? We need to keep it tight and make it contested.
 

Saintly Viewed

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Supporters might have been silent, it doesn't mean approving. I can understand that the club interpreted that as such Most of the MM is not that we picked the wrong man for the succession job but still lingering resentment that MM had to go in the first place. So the club did a bad job at managing expectations there.
Successful in quotes as I doubt by the time the ladder slide/'dismantling' started, it would have brought more success under MM than what Bucks achieved.
PicaBoo you make a great point. As a new BigFooty person as well, though getting a good run....
The whole MM thing is just so nauseating.
It's boring!
It's five years now, it's done.
But on and on and on it goes, MM this and that....
Yes the word is
Nauseating
 

Roverjg

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Opposition supporter still lurking. For the record I still think round 3 is too early to write off a season and don't believe in sacking coaches mid season either, so hope to see Bucks given the year before any decision is made.

I must admit, I do find the 2009 succession plan one of the AFL's most fascinating moments in history. What is amazing to me though is how the man who conceived and implemented it manages to escape any responsibility for the choices he made as President and the impact that has had on the footy club.

My mind boggles at Eddie saying, in round 3!, that he would have no problems sacking Bucks if he thought it was best for the club. Is there anyone on this earth who can sack Ed or is he essentially the boss of Collingwood for life? This is a man who thought sacking [or having a "succession plan"] MM at the hight of Premiership mode was the best decision for the club. What evidence is there other than Ed's opinion is there that this was the right call? He's made some huge calls, and yes that might be his job. But if footy clubs are all about accountability, why is it no-one gets to hold him accountable for how those calls turn out?

I think its very unfair that a decision made by Ed is always reduced to a trashing of the reputations of 2 great servants of the club who were both dealt a raw hand, by him.

Mick took the club to 4 Grand Finals and delivered a Premiership. His legacy speaks for itself, I don't begrudge him at all for being bitter or taking pot shots at the President of the club because in the history of the game no individual has been asked to swallow a more bitter pill than coaching his last game in a losing GF when you 100% want to keep coaching, are committed to coaching and have the players. To me its one of the most heartbreaking stories in footy.

Similarly, Bucks build a legacy as a player as an all time great. Its a shame for him that he probably won't go on to be a career coach or have the sort of impact as a coach that he would of wanted. The way I remember it, in 2009 he was hungry to be a Senior coach and there were opportunities at other clubs and was not seeking to usurp MM at all, but keen to pursue those other opportunities. He told Eddie as much and Eddie decided that Nathan Buckley being involved with a club other than Collingwood was unacceptable. In Ed's estimation Mick was done as a coach and the future of Collingwood was under Nathan Buckley.

Unfortunately for Ed, Mick proved he very much still had what it takes and promptly broke a 20 year Premiership drought, then immediately backed it up finishing top of the ladder and returning to the GF in 2012. I very much doubt that after that Nathan would of resisted if the succession plan was revisited in light of the extraordinary events that followed signing that deal. But Eddie had complete confidence the success was sustainable without Mick. Was it?

What would of happened at any other club is probably Bucks getting a senior job at another club and cutting his teeth for 2 or 3 years while Micks Premiership window closed and he was allowed to leave the game on his terms. Collingwood are then in the market for a senior coach and an uncontracted Bucks comes back to Collingwood to great fanfare and importantly, a more experienced and capable operator. Its actually quite extraordinary that that is not how it happened. The reason it didn't was because the risk of Bucks having huge success at another club and not wanting to come back [which i think history suggests wouldn't of happened] was judged more likely by Eddie than the 2012 team not performing to the same level in 2013 without the coach that built it. That to me was incredibly suspect judgement, the foolishness of which is supported by the 5 year slide since.

Now its 2016 and the members are getting impatient and Eddie says he'll not hesitate to sack Bucks if things don't improve. Did Nathan Buckley appoint himself? Did MM walk away from the game because he didn't want to coach anymore? Who is ultimately responsible for the performance of the team more than Eddie?
Eddie's answer needs to be read in context. Gerard Whateley advised Eddie that it had been reported that irrespective if Collingwood failed again (no time frame mentioned) he would not/ could not sack Buckley. Eddie replied by stating that if it came to that point in time that he would have no hesitation in sacking Buckley.
 

76woodenspooners

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Secondly, as a supporter of over sixty years, I woz less than amused several seasons ago, when the Cloke clan were squeezing CFC for pesos, and Buckley imperiously stated that anybody who criticized Cloke was "not one of us." Arrogant and incompetent - never a good combo.
Yeah, I've had moments over the years when I've thought "Hmmm that's an interesting data point."

Here are a few that I've thought about recently ...

(1) With ten minutes to play in 2010 GF replay, Ed turned to Carla and said something along the lines of them finally being able to relax and be at peace during those 10 minutes, they can take a break from the knockers.

(2) When Ed was spruiking the first members forum, he mentioned that it wasn't going to be "internet style carping".

(3) Ed is a pretty confident bloke, as he should be. But when you see him at the AGM he's as nervous as a teenager on a first date.

I get the distinct impression that Ed doesn't handle the militant wing of the Collingwood army very well. And that he doesn't handle criticism well. At all. Lock Ed in a room with THATSGOLD and Krueger , and he'll chew off his own arm to get out. That's a big shame really. The diversity of the Collingwood supporter base should be celebrated and embraced.
 

Chameleon75

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Yeah, I've had moments over the years when I've thought "Hmmm that's an interesting data point."

Here are a few that I've thought about recently ...

(1) With ten minutes to play in 2010 GF replay, Ed turned to Carla and said something along the lines of them finally being able to relax and be at peace during those 10 minutes, they can take a break from the knockers.

(2) When Ed was spruiking the first members forum, he mentioned that it wasn't going to be "internet style carping".

(3) Ed is a pretty confident bloke, as he should be. But when you see him at the AGM he's as nervous as a teenager on a first date.

I get the distinct impression that Ed doesn't handle the militant wing of the Collingwood army very well. And that he doesn't handle criticism well. At all. Lock Ed in a room with THATSGOLD and Krueger , and he'll chew off his own arm to get out. That's a big shame really. The diversity of the Collingwood supporter base should be celebrated and embraced.
interesting take, do you think ed might be the football equivalent of Nouveau riche, doesn't quite fit in with the establishment?
 

jmac70

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Yeah, I've had moments over the years when I've thought "Hmmm that's an interesting data point."

Here are a few that I've thought about recently ...

(1) With ten minutes to play in 2010 GF replay, Ed turned to Carla and said something along the lines of them finally being able to relax and be at peace during those 10 minutes, they can take a break from the knockers.

(2) When Ed was spruiking the first members forum, he mentioned that it wasn't going to be "internet style carping".

(3) Ed is a pretty confident bloke, as he should be. But when you see him at the AGM he's as nervous as a teenager on a first date.

I get the distinct impression that Ed doesn't handle the militant wing of the Collingwood army very well. And that he doesn't handle criticism well. At all. Lock Ed in a room with THATSGOLD and Krueger , and he'll chew off his own arm to get out. That's a big shame really. The diversity of the Collingwood supporter base should be celebrated and embraced.
Have you ever met Ed?
 

PicaBoo

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Not sure I follow this caretaker coach thing? What I was saying was if Bucks got offered a job he could of taken it, a 2-3 year deal, during which time Mick would of stayed coaching Collingwood. We could of seen what he could do with the list he had in 2012/2013 and if they fell away again the decision to not to offer him another contract and to bring Buckley back would of been an uncontroversial one. More importantly, the young side that he build that was good enough to win and contest back to back flags might of actually added another cup to your trophy cabinet. And given they only come around about once every 20 years i think Ed was a brave man for messing with a winning formula.

Saying Malthouse wasn't sacked because "technically" Eddie pressured him into agreeing to a demotion that he subsequently walked away from, having proven himself the form coach of the competition in 2011/2012, is also skewing things a fair bit.

The fascinating thing about the whole saga is that in 2009 Eddie didn't think Mick was a good enough coach to take Collingwood to its next flag, yet though that Nathan Buckley was. Then when MM proved him wrong and won one immediately, then followed it up winning the preseason, home and away season, and making the GF the next year. Eddie still though that MM wasn't good enough to take Collingwood to its next flag and that Nathan Buckley was. And here we are 5 years later, was Eddie right? Will Nathan Buckley coach Collingwood to its next flag?

My take away is that in 2009 the President of your club didn't believe his team was good enough to win a flag, and planned to fail over the 201/2011 season. When they didn't fail, which is an absolutely amazing effort by MM, he had no plan to account for that and honoured the deal he had with Buckley. Now its 5 seasons later and we're not talking Premierships or even finals and Eddie is saying he'll sack Buckley without hesitation if thats what he thinks is the right decision for the club. What is it about Eddie's decision making throughout that gives people confidence he's capable of making the right decision about who should coach the Collingwood Football Club going forward?
Oh you meant Mick staying on, I read it that you wanted a diff coach.By that time things had gone to sour to reneg that job.. And what after 2-3 years MM would have liked to stay for longer. Not inconceivable .Same problem as we already had , you are only postponing it. Fixed period scenario: MM would be on borrowed time. He wouldn't like that. In fact he doesn't.
And how long would have Malthouse really stayed knowing that his list would nosedive. What a perfect timing to hand over a list.
And to take it further.
Imagine instead of MM doing his thing at Carlton 13/14, what if he would have the same disastrous effect at Collingwood? Eddie might have saved us from disaster there.
Bucks is professional enough to work at another club and not leave it in disarray, even with Collingwood desperately knocking on the door.
Where would all of that leave the club?

And all those what if scenario's( not only yours) seem great but in reality, pointless. So many other minor events that could have easily changed the outcomes of the past seasons that have gone unnoticed. We were 1 bounce away from not even having this discussion about MM as premiership coach.
In perspective things could have been far worse the the situation we are in now.
Recent flag, good list, healthy club. Missing: finals, injury free players and supporters with a spine. Time can fix most of those.
 
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JB1975

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http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...urne-says-nathan-buckley-20160414-go67kw.html

Is anyone not alarmed reading this?

Here we all are for weeks now talking at how negative and boring our football and style of play has become and then the coach comes out with this?

This reeks of a guy desperate to save his job, rather than for the betterment of the club.

Play some entertaining football for crying out loud. We can then at least hang our hat on something.

If we go ultra defensive and still get pumped by Melbourne, that would just be an absolute train wreck.
Had a read. Just sounded like a hope to stem the bleeding in defence to me. What is it precisely that you find so alarming?
 

76woodenspooners

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I have a few times. The first was in the social club at Vic Park and he was probably the most feral guy in the room. He has no problem talking to any supporter, militant or otherwise.
My experience was different ...

I yelled at him. I yelled very loudly at him. "WHY DID YOU SACK MICK? WHY DID YOU DO IT? WE COULDA WON ANOTHER FIVE PREMIERSHIPS BY NOW! HOW COULD YOU DO THAT TO ME? WE'VE BEEN GOING DOWNHILL EVER SINCE MICK LEFT. WHEN IS THE ROT GOING TO STOP? WHEN AM I GOING TO GET MY NEXT PREMIERSHIP? WHEN? I WANT ANOTHER PREMIERSHIP! SACK BUCKLEY ALREADY! I WANT WINNERS! THROW THE CHECKBOOK AT CLARKSON! BUY ALL THE HAWTHORN PLAYERS! ACTUALLY JUST PAY HAWTHORN TO WEAR COLLINGWOOD JUMPERS. IT COULD BE A REVOLUTIONARY NEW JUMPER SPONSORSHIP DEAL. PROBABLY CHEAPER THAN HIRING CLARKSON TOO. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY OTHER IDEAS ..."

Ed was just quiet. He sobbed. Then he full on man-cried. He was broken. I guess I must have hurt his feelings :oops: **


** not really. I just made all that up. Sometimes fiction is more fun than fact. I really have met Ed a few times, but it didn't go like that.
 
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