Mega Thread The 2016 Buckley Coaching Discussion

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PhiloBeddoe

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Thank you Mungo Mulligan Stew those comments from Rosco are a perfect summation of my thoughts on where we stand and my concerns for 2016 and beyond under Buckley.

I'll wait and see what our response is over the next month, but my gut feel is that going into our shells and shutting things down isn't going to be the best course of action. The main reason being I'm not sure you can just flick the switch and go back the other way once we've ground out a few wins...
We are all outside of the club and indeed outside Buckley's head so our opinions may be well off when we try to explain what Buckley meant when referring to (paraphrasing)'locking down' and 'at times it will be dour......'.

I know the Eagles are way ahead of us but what I saw last night was a mixture between dour and exciting football from WCE.
When Richmond had the ball in the back half, WCE locked them down and choked them. When Rich got free, the delivery was either shit because they had no where to go or inferred pressure got the better of them. So when Richmond had the ball, the game was a dour affair until WCE it got it. At about the 15 minute mark of the first term, I didn't want Richmind to get the ball at all because frankly, the game was dour. When WCE had it, an entirely different affair. At times, if the ball was turned over through an effective tackle or a botched handball, one or two quick handballs from WCE and the game opened up perhaps as a result of the Tiges not being able to reset.

So in effect, when Buckley was talking dour and locking down, he many not have been talking about 'shitting down' the entire affair.

Posters/Bloggers that say Buckley's comments demonstrate that he doesn't know what he's doing has got me stuffed.
 

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Maggie5

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Excellent posts. A conclusion that needs a bit of tweaking.
Bucks might have faith but is realistic enough to know that wins and only wins will silence the crowd for now. And ugly wins too if necessary. It is where removing the distraction becomes the main focus.
The 3 recent failures doesn't give me any confidence in the player group in its current state being able to execute the NAB game plan. That we had that free flowing playing style in the first place indicates Bucks knows that is the way forward.

Imagine him saying he is not going to chang anything . Plodding on till it does come togetherand then face the axe for missing out on finals. He doesn't have the currency. Maybe he thas the backing rom the board but they too can hold off the distractors only for so long.
Take a step back, get basics right, a few wins to get the spirits back up and meanwhile see how we can get back on track.
Interesting Blog post from MMS, will have to think about it but some good points.
Also good to get this thread back on track.
 

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We are all outside of the club and indeed outside Buckley's head so our opinions may be well off when we try to explain what Buckley meant when referring to (paraphrasing)'locking down' and 'at times it will be dour......'.

I know the Eagles are way ahead of us but what I saw last night was a mixture between dour and exciting football from WCE.
When Richmond had the ball in the back half, WCE locked them down and choked them. When Rich got free, the delivery was either shit because they had no where to go or inferred pressure got the better of them. So when Richmond had the ball, the game was a dour affair until WCE it got it. At about the 15 minute mark of the first term, I didn't want Richmind to get the ball at all because frankly, the game was dour. When WCE had it, an entirely different affair. At times, if the ball was turned over through an effective tackle or a botched handball, one or two quick handballs from WCE and the game opened up perhaps as a result of the Tiges not being able to reset.

So in effect, when Buckley was talking dour and locking down, he many not have been talking about 'shitting down' the entire affair.

Posters/Bloggers that say Buckley's comments demonstrate that he doesn't know what he's doing has got me stuffed.
It's open to interpretation. You've generally had belief in Buckley's coaching so your sticking with a glass half full interpretation of his comments, but my views on his coaching are more pessimistic hence my doubts.

It's exactly why my comment was that I'm going to take stock for a month and not commit to a firm view.
 

JB1975

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It's open to interpretation. You've generally had belief in Buckley's coaching so your sticking with a glass half full interpretation of his comments, but my views on his coaching are more pessimistic hence my doubts.

It's exactly why my comment was that I'm going to take stock for a month and not commit to a firm view.
Had a chuckle. I don't think too many of us are operating with an 'optimistic' view of things at the moment, or at least we've all got a fair dose of pessimism, but it just seems quite alarmist to interpret Buckley's comments as the beginning of a siege.

But as you say, let's see what the next month brings.
 

PicaBoo

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We are all outside of the club and indeed outside Buckley's head so our opinions may be well off when we try to explain what Buckley meant when referring to (paraphrasing)'locking down' and 'at times it will be dour......'.

I know the Eagles are way ahead of us but what I saw last night was a mixture between dour and exciting football from WCE.
When Richmond had the ball in the back half, WCE locked them down and choked them. When Rich got free, the delivery was either shit because they had no where to go or inferred pressure got the better of them. So when Richmond had the ball, the game was a dour affair until WCE it got it. At about the 15 minute mark of the first term, I didn't want Richmind to get the ball at all because frankly, the game was dour. When WCE had it, an entirely different affair. At times, if the ball was turned over through an effective tackle or a botched handball, one or two quick handballs from WCE and the game opened up perhaps as a result of the Tiges not being able to reset.

So in effect, when Buckley was talking dour and locking down, he many not have been talking about 'shitting down' the entire affair.

Posters/Bloggers that say Buckley's comments demonstrate that he doesn't know what he's doing has got me stuffed.
Richmond has not shown that fast transition like we did against Geelong.
They have become better and better at securing final spots by winning enough without changing their gameplan. Feeding on the rest of the comp that was getting their act together. Quite a few club will be in a similar position sooner or later.
We are halfway in that journey. We have shown we can do it in NAB but we don't in the real compo and questions are what needs to be done. Subtle tweaking by the coach, not to subtle tweaking by getting a new coach. Or maybe related to the number of outs we had so far and form.dip of.key personnel
 

Scodog10

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Had a chuckle. I don't think too many of us are operating with an 'optimistic' view of things at the moment, or at least we've all got a fair dose of pessimism, but it just seems quite alarmist to interpret Buckley's comments as the beginning of a siege.

But as you say, let's see what the next month brings.
There's a bit of byplay behind that with FiloBeddoe. I think you're right in that the overall view of things is not one of optimism, but my his/ her take on Buckley's comments was, IMO. I'd actually like Buckley's comments to be the beginning of a siege.
 

TW Sherrin

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FYI - Here is a post by ROSCO on The Collingwood Blog that some of our fellow BOAF (Birds Of A Feather) may find useful:

Given that change is going to cause damage – and not just financially – you would only undertake it secure in the knowledge that [matters] could not possibly get worse and that there was a very, very good chance they would get measurably better.

My guess is that if the ship can be righted with a few wins over the next 6 weeks, the pressure will be temporarily released but the need to deal with realities wont disappear. Buckley will be given every possible chance to succeed and to that end I would tip a change to the assistant coaching panel to be on the cards, rather than a change of coach (with the exception being continued losses over the next month) and the hope would be they could find a Goodwin who has clearly had a positive influence at Melbourne even though he isn’t head coach (yet).

The biggest concern for me is that Buckley is forecasting a return to dour, defensive football in an attempt to manufacture a win.

This means the game plans that we saw demonstrated in the NAB cup – fast, open, transition footy that was supposedly drilled all summer – have been summarily turfed and he is reverting to type.

One can speculate therefore that the defensive rolling maul is the only style of footy he can coach or its the only style of footy the list is capable of playing and having a chance of winning, but either way its not a style of footy that is capable of regularly generating 25-30 shots on goal per game.

It also cannot succeed against sides who defend well AND transition quickly and efficiently – e.g Hawks, Dogs, Crows, Weagles – given the rule changes this year (and probably next year). In other words, its a game style that might allow you to cobble together enough wins to scrape into the eight, but it’s not a Top 4 game style and therefore not a premiership plan.

Given the youth of our list, one would logically assume that we would be drilling them in what was necessary to be a top four contender in the next three years and yet it seems we are travelling the other way to keep the wolves from the door.

All this will result in will be confusion and mediocrity.

It’s interesting that a similar predicament faces Ross Lyon with many observers tipping him to do the same – the difference of course is that Lyon has a 5 year deal and Freo’s inevitable list rebuild/rejuvenation is in front of him, whereas ours has been done.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay…

The ROSCO post above provides us with an insight as to where Buckley’s head is at at the mo – that is to say, he is (and here I’m paraphrasing) in survival mode.

Back to his old “defensive rolling maul” strategy.

This is not a good thing.

How so?

Well…

It suggests that Buckley lacks faith in his own tactics – the same tactics that were drilled into our players over the preseason.

Put another way…

It is, effectively, a veiled admission that our head coach does not know what he is doing.

Win , lose or draw this weekend, where do we go now in the AFL Sinai with our latter day footy Moses?
I almost disagree completely that lasts year's style can't beat the top sides. If we kicked straight it would've made finals.
 

jmac70

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Had a chuckle. I don't think too many of us are operating with an 'optimistic' view of things at the moment, or at least we've all got a fair dose of pessimism, but it just seems quite alarmist to interpret Buckley's comments as the beginning of a siege.

But as you say, let's see what the next month brings.
The siege could end very quickly if we lose the next two games.
 

PhiloBeddoe

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It's open to interpretation. You've generally had belief in Buckley's coaching so your sticking with a glass half full interpretation of his comments, but my views on his coaching are more pessimistic hence my doubts.

It's exactly why my comment was that I'm going to take stock for a month and not commit to a firm view.
I don't have a firm view either. Whether it was Buckley, Worsfold or most other coaches making these comments in a similar situation, I would have interpreted it in a similar manner. Just like you, I'll wait for a short while and then determine where I sit on Buckley's coaching this year. What I won't do is determine that he has no idea from a few comments reported in the media.

As for the byplay, you may have to explain that one.
 

Shpeshal Ed

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Because once Malthouse was given a deadline, there was a definite shift in the way he recruited and coached comapred to the 10 seasons previous. Stevie Wonder could see it. Ed doesnt initiate the handover? We continue as we did before, finals, but no flag.

Hell, it took a lucky bounce of the ball to even net THAT flag
 

TheGreatGrundy

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Seedsman is playing very well as a running half back in a strong Adelaide team. Heath Shaw's game has gone up a notch at GWS where he is playing AA standard footy. Ben Kennedy is getting a regular game with Melbourne. Why did these players have difficulty reaching the same heights at Collingwood? Is Buckley not capable of getting the best out of players?

I guess on the plus side we had Travis Varcoe playing career best football and the possibility that Howe will be as good for us as Kennedy seems likely to be for Melbourne. Nevertheless, the exodus of players over the last three years along with the ordinary performance of the team suggests to me that Buckley is not a great motivator of players, at least certain types of players.

Knightmare did an interesting analysis a couple of years ago suggesting that young players responded to Bucks' coaching style but he did not enjoy the same level of success with players 23 and over. He also questioned why so few players at Collingwood were able to sustain their careers beyond the age of 30. Dane Swan now 32 is still at the club, though his injury puts his playing future in serious doubt.

The latest drug scandal suggesting that our players are among the heaviest users of recreational drugs (at least in the off-season) does not vindicate the culture change that Buckley sought to bring about at the club.

I have never been convinced that Buckley's belief in self-motivation is the best method to inspire players to perform on game day. Now his game plan is also being heavily questioned. We go into today's game as the favourite, despite struggling and losing to teams we were expected to defeat. If we lose today, the search should begin for a new coach for next season. If we win convincingly, Buckley will buy himself some more time - at least until the next unexpected defeat.
 
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ksardog

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Because once Malthouse was given a deadline, there was a definite shift in the way he recruited and coached comapred to the 10 seasons previous. Stevie Wonder could see it. Ed doesnt initiate the handover? We continue as we did before, finals, but no flag.

Hell, it took a lucky bounce of the ball to even net THAT flag
Also took a draw in 1990 ( including a miss after the siren by Sumich from 15m out ) to get past WC and even compete to make that years grand final.

Everything is well and truly earned at Collingwood. Just like our 2010 premiership.
To say the only reason we won that premiership was because of the succession plan is bordering on ludicrous
 

HFF

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Seedsman's ball use would be so handy now after reading the "butcher's" article in the HUN today.

Time is ticking for Bucks. We are all hoping for a miracle turnaround from a playing point of view but eventually the decision to either keep him or sack him will become a financial one if the losses and these pityful performances keep up, otherwise too much damage will continue to be caused.
 

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I also don't know where else to place this but I figured I'd put it in here and share it the rest of the magpie fans.

Don't shoot the messenger here boys and girls however, from what I've heard and been told the club is a fractured.
Trust has been betrayed and it's spilling on field.
The players were said to have made a pact during the off season regarding setting high standards in terms of being "professional" and staying clean in order to strive to achieve something.
Once that drug story broke about 11 players, the trust between the players had been broken.

Make of it what you will, that's what I've heard.
 

Shpeshal Ed

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Also took a draw in 1990 ( including a miss after the siren by Sumich from 15m out ) to get past WC and even compete to make that years grand final.

Everything is well and truly earned at Collingwood. Just like our 2010 premiership.
To say the only reason we won that premiership was because of the succession plan is bordering on ludicrous
I'm not saying it's the only reason we won it.

I'm saying it's the reason Malthouse almost completely changed his behaviour compared to the way he coached and recruited the previous 10 years. Which in turn obviously led to the flag.
 

ksardog

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I'm not saying it's the only reason we won it.

I'm saying it's the reason Malthouse almost completely changed his behaviour compared to the way he coached and recruited the previous 10 years. Which in turn obviously led to the flag.
Yeh, still a rubbish statement.

I dont understand some people in here, its all when and good saying we need this player or that player, but u need to trade for them and they need to be available. Its not the 70's or 80's where u can just go plunder another club and cost u nothing
 
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I also don't know where else to place this but I figured I'd put it in here and share it the rest of the magpie fans.

Don't shoot the messenger here boys and girls however, from what I've heard and been told the club is a fractured.
Trust has been betrayed and it's spilling on field.
The players were said to have made a pact during the off season regarding setting high standards in terms of being "professional" and staying clean in order to strive to achieve something.
Once that drug story broke about 11 players, the trust between the players had been broken.

Make of it what you will, that's what I've heard.
Yeah these rumors seem to be everywhere. If they are true then the leadership group/coaching staff/club deserve as much blame as anyone for imposing standards on the playing group that could never realistically be followed. It's incredibly naive to think that some young men with large disposable incomes and with only a 2 month break per year aren't going to take drugs when on their break imo.
 

PicaBoo

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Seedsman is playing very well as a running half back in a strong Adelaide team. Heath Shaw's game has gone up a notch at GWS where he is playing AA standard footy. Ben Kennedy is getting a regular game with Melbourne. Why did these players have difficulty reaching the same heights at Collingwood? Is Buckley not capable of getting the best out of players?

I guess on the plus side we had Travis Varcoe playing career best football and the possibility that Howe will be as good for us as Kennedy seems likely to be for Melbourne. Nevertheless, the exodus of players over the last three years along with the ordinary performance of the team suggests to me that Buckley is not a great motivator of players, at least certain types of players.
The 'exodus' is in fact only 1 player worth mentioning , Heath Shaw. BenKen and Seeds are ONLY 3 matches in. We had them for a lot longer. Maybe worth waiting with jumping to conclusions with performances of ex Pies at other clubs?
In Shaw's case and most likely Seeds too, getting out of the club , perhaps even out of Melbourne was the motivation they needed.
Last but not least, you can't get trade value by trading spuds.
I am sure there is a motivational problem with Bucks as there is with any other new coach. They can't please anyone. And looking at the players that Mick has moved on at Carlton, his quality to motivate and and retain quality players that he has been given wasn't that good either.

The latest drug scandal suggesting that our players are among the heaviest users of recreational drugs (at least in the off-season) does not vindicate the culture change that Buckley sought to bring about at the club.
Our players are the amongst the heaviest users based upon what? Slobbo's article? You mean the one with no background whatsoever and serious doubts about Slobbo's integrity and motivation?
We had a massive problem at the time of the Essendon scandal, undoubtedly a left over from the MM era where certain players were given a lot of leeway.
Pert says there is still one but how big that actually is in comparison to other clubs. we don't know. New rules will include naming and shaming. We will find out soon enough.
If anything the response of Club and Players, could also suggest the opposite from your view and that there is in fact a culture change. They are taking serious offense by being incorrectly labelled "heaviest users of recreational drugs".
 
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The only 2 players you'd lose any sleep over are Shaw and Beams, brilliant footballers but one is a head case and the other is always injured.

De Goey Crisp Adams and Greenwood wasn't a bad return for them just quietly.
 

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The 'exodus' is in fact only 1 player worth mentioning , Heath Shaw.
I am sure there is a motivational problem with Bucks as there is with any other new coach. They can't please anyone. And looking at the players that Mick has moved on at Carlton, his quality to motivate and and retain quality players that he has been given wasn't that good either.


Our players are the amongst the heaviest users based upon what? Slobbo's article? You mean the one with no background whatsoever and serious doubts about Slobbo's integrity and motivation?
We had a massive problem at the time of the Essendon scandal, undoubtedly a left over from the MM era where certain players were given a lot of leeway.
Pert says there is still one but how big that actually is in comparison to other clubs. we don't know. New rules will include naming and shaming. We will find out soon enough.
If anything the response of Club and Players, could also suggest the opposite from your view and that there is in fact a culture change. They are taking serious offense by being incorrectly labelled "heaviest users of recreational drugs".
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Beams and Wellingham were two other players of importance that left. Lumumba was obviously another player who was none too fond of Buckley, but he is still playing like a headless chook. However my main points were that Buckley seems to alienate certain types of players and also seems to have problems motivating players to perform on match day. I mainly base my second assumption on our lack of success since he took over the coaching. Your point that motivational problems occur with new coaches does not really apply given that this is Buck's fifth not first year of coaching.

I base my point about us being among the heaviest illicit drug users on the list that was floating around forums which credited us with 11 positive tests, behind only 2 clubs from memory, with surprisingly Hawthorn almost double our numbers. If true, there is obviously no direct correlation between illicit drug taking and on field performance, given that Hawthorn's team of rec users wins just about every premiership now. I just would have thought that given Buck's effort to change the culture of the club that we would have gathered together a squeaky clean squad of player. Instead, we are the first club to lose players to suspensions for performance drug taking and are 'rumoured' to be among the worst rec drug offenders. Personally, I don't care much what the players do in their off season provided they win games, but I assume that Pert and Buckley feel very differently.

Quite obviously you are still believe in Bucks as a coach where I have ceased to have faith in his methods. Perhaps a good win against Melbourne this arvo will help convince me of the wisdom of your loyalty and faith.
 
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You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Beams and Wellingham were two other players of importance that left.
You aren't suggesting we should have paid Wellers 400K a year for the last 4 years when he's basically only produced for 1 of those years and his body is letting him down again? He wanted to party with Buddy and he's paying for that now with a body that basically rejects rehab. Daisy and Harry I suspect have the same problem.
 

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You aren't suggesting we should have paid Wellers 400K a year for the last 4 years when he's basically only produced for 1 of those years and his body is letting him down again? He wanted to party with Buddy and he's paying for that now with a body that basically rejects rehab. Daisy and Harry I suspect have the same problem.
I am not saying that we should have paid Wellers $400000 a year. I am saying that a lot of players seemed to want out after Buckley took over coaching, and that we also just let 2 players go who were treading water at the Pies but have had an early-spring blossoming at their new clubs. I don't think that the only reason for their improvement is the increased motivation of a new environment. Seedsman in particular is playing a role that we are desperately lacking in our current team - a running half back.
 
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I am not saying that we should have paid Wellers $400000 a year. I am saying that a lot of players seemed to want out after Buckley took over coaching
I'm sure they did, he didn't put up with or allow what Mick did. Harry ended up walking around an oval muttering to himself while reporters recorded it. Wellers couldn't have been kicked out fast enough with a clip from Perty about the partying on the way out.

I'm sure a lot of unprofessional lazy players were disgruntled.
 
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