Mega Thread The 2017 'Buckley's Chances' Thread

[swoop42]

What?

Geelong also fell down the ladder after 2011, only won one final in 2013 and found themselves outside the 8 in 2015.

But are now contending again with basically a whole new team.

Difference with Geelong being they have brought in senior guys that are in their prime 26 - 27 year olds in last couple of years - and they are paying off.

Our recruits are either younger kids still entering their prime like Adams and Treloar, or questionable veterans to plug gaps via free agency.

We are still taking a longer term view, but Geelong have gone for the immediate.

Different approaches altogether in how the clubs have tried to rebuild under Buckley and Scott.

What Geelong have done is exactly what the club envisaged would occur for us when Buckley took over.

To think otherwise is rewriting history.

Outside of one season they've kept themselves in contention all the while refreshing there list and last season won 17 games of football to our 9.

Ultimately they mightn't be quite good enough for the flag but it's easier to win them if you're playing finals I would have thought.

 

[doppleganger]

ummm go read the other boards
witts would almost certainly be leading it, he is only going to improve as well
Williams (who i never rated btw and am glad has gone cos of his character issues) is flying and definately in their top 3
Brown is having his best season probably ever.
actually all of them are.
can you tell me why?

I assume you are trying to blame Buckley, him not being able to get the best out of them or something

Williams was a Buckley player, he had two top 10 BnF finishes under Buckley's coaching. The club stood by him plenty of times but he was a loose cannon on and off the field who was poor in 2016. Having a good run at North, but reckon Tarrant, Higgins, Cunnington the main men at the Roos. Good on Marley for getting back on track.

Witts, Bucks rated him...was picked as number 1 ruck at start of 2016 ahead of Grundy. But then injured himself. Grundy grabbed number 1 ruck and Witts couldn't provide enough value to the team unless playing as the number 1 ruck, which was now Grundy's spot. Tried playing both on multiple occasions but didn't work.

Nate Brown, meh he is a limited stopper, no chance he would be winning StKs BnF. Dunne is a better option.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

What Geelong have done is exactly what the club envisaged would occur for us when Buckley took over.

To think otherwise is rewriting history.

Outside of one season they've kept themselves in contention all the while refreshing there list and last season won 17 games of football to our 9.

Ultimately they mightn't be quite good enough for the flag but it's easier to win them if you're playing finals I would have thought.

Geelongs recruiting of developed players has been fairly good but I want to throw something out there.
Dangerfield. Gets the opportunity to go home, I mean real home not just back to the state. Right place right time for the Cats. Lucky pricks.
I reckon the draw of moving to a coastal region puts Geelong at an advantage when attempting to recruit established talent. So if we have a player from Richmond or Carlton looking to move and they have a choice between Collingwood and Geelong, Geelong are already in the lead before negotiations get serious. I'm not discounting finals appearances being a variable but just think geographic location is another big variable.
Have they missed out on anyone they've chased?
Who was the last big name we've chased and landed in terms of mid 20's established talent?

 

[doppleganger]

What Geelong have done is exactly what the club envisaged would occur for us when Buckley took over.

To think otherwise is rewriting history.

Outside of one season they've kept themselves in contention all the while refreshing there list and last season won 17 games of football to our 9.

Ultimately they mightn't be quite good enough for the flag but it's easier to win them if you're playing finals I would have thought.

Your confusing two separate things.

When Collingwood announced the Buckley succession plan, the premise was to mirror the corporate world where you pro-actively risk manage the future operations to ensure proper knowledge transfer and grooming of the chosen successor....unfortunately the incumbent changed their mind and it didn't work as planned.

Geelong had a build under Bomber, they peaked in 07-09 but we're still good enough in 2011 to win another flag, but they then regressed.

Both sides found themselves outside the eight in 2015, 'making up the numbers'.

Geelong then pulled the trigger to relaunch with 26-27 year olds, and it was successful enough to get them back in the PF picture...but it is a new team, they have what six players from the 11 GF team...they came back to the pack after being up from 07-11 just like we did.

Hawthorn up from 11-16, but now battling....yet Collingwood fans think we should have been the exception, that we should have been playing in PFs and GFs for a decade or something!?

 

[HeathySure]

Nothing clears the mind than the thought you're about to lose your whole career.

Likewise Dunn is playing well, for us. I'd take Dunn today over Brown.

Witts is like second pick rucks through the ages when they get a main gig elsewhere.
Essendon moved Justin Madden on and he did very well at Carlton.

If we are nominating those players above no doubt you are also nominating
Ben Kennedy, Paul Seedsman are having career best form..... no doubt.
Oh and Cloke with Bevo rubbing him up and down, must be having a brilliant season, no doubt.

Meh, don't give a rats tossbag about players not with us anymore.

the question was can you tell me why they are playing better at another club, not what we have now.
never mentioned Cloke but there are clearly issues there that are beyond football. Seedsman who i also didnt mention has been injured the whole year, last year he was in their best 22.
but we didnt trade many last year, and those that we did are almost all thriving. i dont really know why. but i think it really is an indictment on Collingwood as a whole

 

[HeathySure]

I assume you are trying to blame Buckley, him not being able to get the best out of them or something

Williams was a Buckley player, he had two top 10 BnF finishes under Buckley's coaching. The club stood by him plenty of times but he was a loose cannon on and off the field who was poor in 2016. Having a good run at North, but reckon Tarrant, Higgins, Cunnington the main men at the Roos. Good on Marley for getting back on track.

Witts, Bucks rated him...was picked as number 1 ruck at start of 2016 ahead of Grundy. But then injured himself. Grundy grabbed number 1 ruck and Witts couldn't provide enough value to the team unless playing as the number 1 ruck, which was now Grundy's spot. Tried playing both on multiple occasions but didn't work.

Nate Brown, meh he is a limited stopper, no chance he would be winning StKs BnF. Dunne is a better option.

i am not blaming Buckley 100%, but as i said before retorting Saintly's quote, its kind of an indictment on Collingwood as a whole that they are totally thriving at other clubs. whether you like them or not you cannot deny that. We really could have used Williams on the weekend.
And i have said it before, but i reckon Witts is a better fit for us, We dont need a big ruck rover who is not very good at actually rucking. We need a good tap ruckman who can give it to our supposedly awesome midfield.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

the question was can you tell me why they are playing better at another club, not what we have now.
never mentioned Cloke but there are clearly issues there that are beyond football. Seedsman who i also didnt mention has been injured the whole year, last year he was in their best 22.
but we didnt trade many last year, and those that we did are almost all thriving. i dont really know why. but i think it really is an indictment on Collingwood as a whole

First sentence in my post.

The idea your career might be gone, second club chance, trains the mind like nothing else.

Or alternative theory

Collingwood is such a terrible horrible club unlike any other club, that evil beasts live there, dragging everyone down and destroying everyone in their path. The evil genius Buckley is their ringmaster



Ps folks I'm only mucking about, I'm not being really serious.

But second chance clubs do train the mind "get better" or it's over!

 

[DoubleDraw7710]

Hawthorn up from 11-16, but now battling....yet Collingwood fans think we should have been the exception, that we should have been playing in PFs and GFs for a decade or something!?

No but it's a eighteen competition with Brisbane and previously Carlton and Melbourne as basket cases so an 8/15 chance of making finals for the last 3 years and we couldn't do it.

Corrected (thanks Doppleganger)

 

[Saintly Viewed]

i am not blaming Buckley 100%, but as i said before retorting Saintly's quote, its kind of an indictment on Collingwood as a whole that they are totally thriving at other clubs. whether you like them or not you cannot deny that. We really could have used Williams on the weekend.
And i have said it before, but i reckon Witts is a better fit for us, We dont need a big ruck rover who is not very good at actually rucking. We need a good tap ruckman who can give it to our supposedly awesome midfield.

Serious question as you're not really a Grundy cheer squad, should we move to Cox as main ruckman?

It's an interesting theory, going for better tap work v better gruntwork

 

[doppleganger]

No but it's a sixteen competition with Brisbane and previously Carlton and Melbourne as basket cases so an 8/13 chance of making finals for the last 3 years and we couldn't do it.

Need to check your numbers, 18 teams

Melbourne & GWS were basket cases back in 10-13, when we were a good side, but they have been building since then as we have regressed.

We are now hopefully back on the rise to finals, but will need more improvement from our younger players...unless we do a Geelong and bring in a batch of ready made senior players.

 

[DoubleDraw7710]

Need to check your numbers, 18 teams

Melbourne & GWS were basket cases back in 10-13, when we were a good side, but they have been building since then as we have regressed.

We are now hopefully back on the rise to finals, but will need more improvement from our younger players...unless we do a Geelong and bring in a batch of ready made senior players.

Sorry I have regressed too!

 

[westozpie]

lol
go pay attention to the other teams before you comment
also no need to get personal, if you have an argument that i am wrong go gets some facts to retort it.

Sorry couldn't believe you were serious.
Williams - been ok don't think 17 disposals ave from a flanker will win any b & f
Brown - serious, he averages 8 disposals a game can't see that wining a b & f anywhere, don't know last fullback that won any awards
Witts - yeah going well, a chance for b & f
So big deal some players doing ok at other clubs, wow it happens we win on some and lose on others, let's see more than half a season before lauding at best just ok stats for some

 

[westozpie]

i am not blaming Buckley 100%, but as i said before retorting Saintly's quote, its kind of an indictment on Collingwood as a whole that they are totally thriving at other clubs. whether you like them or not you cannot deny that. We really could have used Williams on the weekend.
And i have said it before, but i reckon Witts is a better fit for us, We dont need a big ruck rover who is not very good at actually rucking. We need a good tap ruckman who can give it to our supposedly awesome midfield.

Not being personal or nasty but you asked me to check facts, could you check about players from other afl clubs doing well when changing clubs, e.g. Melbourne- Howe, Dunn.
Think will find many names of players doing well maybe due to realising might be last chance for them

 

[HeathySure]

Serious question as you're not really a Grundy cheer squad, should we move to Cox as main ruckman?

It's an interesting theory, going for better tap work v better gruntwork

ummm i wish we had both Witts and Grundy to be honest but if we had to get rid of one Grundy would have gotten us better picks
as for Cox as main ruckman? no not at the moment, He is a dilemma Cox, he will get there but is still an L plater and by the time he gets there he will be 28 or 29, We need a back up for Grundy so he can sit there as depth for now.
I would rather Witts because i would rather our ruck be a link up player around the ground and let our midfield do the job of moving the ball, He is a much better "team" player and better fit for us winning games. Grundy might be the better around the grounds person, but at the moment he gives away frees, fights our midfield for the ball and clangers it. He might just need a pre season of full on ruck work and he might get there, but at the moment he is playing well as an individual and not for the team.
Thats my opinion anyway, might be wrong.

 

[HeathySure]

Not being personal or nasty but you asked me to check facts, could you check about players from other afl clubs doing well when changing clubs, e.g. Melbourne- Howe, Dunn.
Think will find many names of players doing well maybe due to realising might be last chance for them

i was big on Wells this year, more than most but a little disappointed with his output, it may have been because he played more forward than i thought. As for others from other clubs. you didnt name Mayne, White, Greenwood, Aish, Treloar all who have been underwhelming for us (treloar has been good but not what we thought so far)
for what its worth Varcoe WHE and Crisp have been fine for us.
I know you arent being nasty, but go read the North MElbourne and Saints boards, both of them have Williams and Brown really high up on their B & F counts. They have improved out of sight since they left, and it might just be the fitness staff or specialist coaching, but most here would love to have what they are giving the other clubs here.
Witts is a future All Australian and will have a very long career.

 

[westozpie]

i was big on Wells this year, more than most but a little disappointed with his output, it may have been because he played more forward than i thought. As for others from other clubs. you didnt name Mayne, White, Greenwood, Aish, Treloar all who have been underwhelming for us (treloar has been good but not what we thought so far)
for what its worth Varcoe WHE and Crisp have been fine for us.
I know you arent being nasty, but go read the North MElbourne and Saints boards, both of them have Williams and Brown really high up on their B & F counts. They have improved out of sight since they left, and it might just be the fitness staff or specialist coaching, but most here would love to have what they are giving the other clubs here.
Witts is a future All Australian and will have a very long career.

Good points, I'm glad of your thoughts on Crisp, I rate what he does doesn't have many friends on here. I'm rapt withTreloar, bit down this year but fourth in brownlow last year was great

 

[ottoman]

And i have said it before, but i reckon Witts is a better fit for us, We dont need a big ruck rover who is not very good at actually rucking. We need a good tap ruckman who can give it to our supposedly awesome midfield.

I mentioned recently that I thought Grundy was the most over-rated player at our club for the very same things you mention above. His ruck work is fairly average and although he gets many possessions around the ground he doesn't really do much damage with them. Suffice to say I was very quickly told that I was wrong.
Then again a few years back I mentioned that Cloke was the most over-rated footballer in the league and at that time I was also very quickly told I was wrong.

I will admit Grundy is still quite young in rucking terms so I am still very bullish about his future, I just don't think he is deserving of all the hoo-ha he is getting at the moment.

 

[ZEV]

Sorry couldn't believe you were serious.
Williams - been ok don't think 17 disposals ave from a flanker will win any b & f
Brown - serious, he averages 8 disposals a game can't see that wining a b & f anywhere, don't know last fullback that won any awards
Witts - yeah going well, a chance for b & f
So big deal some players doing ok at other clubs, wow it happens we win on some and lose on others, let's see more than half a season before lauding at best just ok stats for some

Have to confess I don't get to watch too many GC games but I was looking at the coaches award votes and Witts has 6 so far this year. Gaz is currently sitting on 50 so maybe don't bet to much on the big man

 

[BringouttheGimp]

How on earth is Buckley still coaching..

Lose to Carlton Richmond and Essendon.. 3 of our major rivals.. and an imminent ext.

What is this respect and dignity we owe this bloke.. at the expense of the club. We should be setting the club up for success.. not making sure Buck's reputation payout and financial security whatever is of paramount importance.

What kind of rubbish is this.

We are not winning.. out the door!!!

 

[Gone Critical]

They were just using tongue in cheek about showing how numbers can be used to whatever effect.

People seem to take everything so seriously.

It's not the end of the world if people have different points of view.

I do get it, in football we are taught from day one, the coach is this mythical being, all powerful.

Ultimately coaches are judged by wins and premierships. Some have dropped off Ross Lyon, drew a grand final, didn't win, got close two other times, so he's kind of off the radar because no flags. One point more in the draw he becomes mythical.

Nobody ever talks about Bob Rose as a great coach, he missed by 4 points, 1 point, 10 points after leading by 44 points at half time.

Nathan, like most coaches, may never succeed. It's that ruthless.
But I bet half of the flops as coaches would have done far better if they had better players, or a drop of luck.

All I know for certain, Allan Jeans is regarded as one of greatest coaches ever.
Had 16 years at St Kilda, good group, one flag.
Helped get him the hawthorn gig, wins 3 flags more.
Had Matthews, Tuck, Ayres, Langford, Jarman, Platten, Brereton, Dunstall, Hall, Buckenara.
You reckon with that lot you don't win flags?

But anyway, as time goes on, people will likely get their wish, the guillotine will come.

Then we can get busy and start on the new bloke.... matter of time.....

Cruel business coaching, no love lost, people hate you, people Bay for blood. Not for the feint hearted.

Just saying.

Great post SV. Love the sentiment behind it.

 

[ThexderX]

Whilst you're being smart, that's true of every coach all the same

You're right I was being a smart a#se but the point is all coaches deal with adversity. The good ones find a way to get over or around it. Good ones change their players bad habits.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

If you get a chance, listen to Pendles talking about Bucks on SEN this morning
Bucks isn't going anywhere

 

[Saintly Viewed]

You're right I was being a smart a#se but the point is all coaches deal with adversity. The good ones find a way to get over or around it. Good ones change their players bad habits.

Pretty much.
If they get the better players it's amazing how much better they are at handling adversity

 

[Saintly Viewed]

If you get a chance, listen to Pendles talking about Bucks on SEN this morning
Bucks isn't going anywhere

Agree
Was emphatic!

Of course captains are expectedly to sing from the hymn sheet but he was absolutely emphatic

 

[doodles98]

I mentioned recently that I thought Grundy was the most over-rated player at our club for the very same things you mention above. His ruck work is fairly average and although he gets many possessions around the ground he doesn't really do much damage with them. Suffice to say I was very quickly told that I was wrong.
Then again a few years back I mentioned that Cloke was the most over-rated footballer in the league and at that time I was also very quickly told I was wrong.

I will admit Grundy is still quite young in rucking terms so I am still very bullish about his future, I just don't think he is deserving of all the hoo-ha he is getting at the moment.

Nice big shout out to yourself there. You have a point though Otto. Grundy is not a damaging player for us. No point in getting possessions and then not doing something positive with the footy is there (which in a nutshell is our main issue as a team)... Taylor Adams ring any bells Otto?