Mega Thread The 2017 'Buckley's Chances' Thread

[CFC2010]

For people prepared to accept that the "youngest premiership team in history" myth hid a multitude of sins and totally ignored the list shortfalls then that in and off itself is not really relevant.

My point was more to do with the Saints re-build..........the youngest team in history has been done to death......the horse is dead on that one good and proper..

 

[HeathySure]

Listen here

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/06/28/im-keen-for-bucks-to-stay-pendles/

i listened
of course he is going to say all that. Can you imagine if he didnt?
all i heard was Port Adelaide have worked out our game plan. now other sides will use that blue print to beat us too.

 

[CFC2010]

For the record, I've done a 'top bloke' and 'great media performer' coaches ladder....good news is we're the premier:-

1. Collingwood/Buckley

On that basis, we should re-sign Buck's ASAP!

Yeah but didn't you hear Pendles today on SEN he said we HAVE to sign Bucks!

 

[ThexderX]

Yeah but didn't you hear Pendles today on SEN he said we HAVE to sign Bucks!

When was the last time you heard a player come out and say "no we can't stand the coach and want him gone, he has no idea what he's doing" NEVER. It's just a well driller media performer doing what he has to do. I have no problem with that, but its the player equivalent of the "full support of the board".

Good on him for doing it, but what else was he going to say?

 

[CFC2010]

When was the last time you heard a player come out and say "no we can't stand the coach and want him gone, he has no idea what he's doing" NEVER. It's just a well driller media performer doing what he has to do. I have no problem with that, but its the player equivalent of the "full support of the board".

Good on him for doing it, but what else was he going to say?

What he should have said is Bucks has NFI for putting Langdon on Gray and playing Reid for three quarters in the back line.......ooops sorry that's what I would have said

 

[jackcass]

Geelong have actually bucked the trend - they won they're 1st premiership in 2007 (10 years ago) and haven't missed the finals since, whilst rebuilding their team and winning a total of three premierships along the way.

St. Kilda supporters could make similar arguments to us about their coach, but they have turned over an extra coach than us, so they are giving him extra time to find success. Richo will feel real pressure next year, like Bucks, if they continue to go backwards.

Hawthorn may beat us this weekend, so does that mean they have already succeeded us in their rebuild?

North supporters are very much like us....asking for blood to be spilled due to a long period of mediocrity.

The difference really is Hawks and Cats won 4 & 3 premierships respectively....we only won 1 and none under our current coach.

Geelong lucked out sweeping the F/S pool which set the club up really well yet despite that we are already seeing some decline in their performances. They may well figure in the 8 for a few more seasons off the back of individual brilliance from all too few but they'll also eventually pay a price for trying to squeeze too much success out of a squad by their recruiting of the Henderson and Tuohy types. They'll likely lose Lonergan and Mackie, Taylor 31 this year, Hawkins and Selwood both 29. I don't think they've actually gone into a rebuild, just plastered over a few cracks.

St Kilda are rebuilding quite nicely. Not sure too many Saints supporters can't see that.

Hawks still have more pain to come. Burgoyne, Gibson, Hodge still form the core of their best players week to week. They've got a couple of really promising kids, just not enough to pick up the slack for the ageing warriors.

North have continually tried to cheat the natural flow of things. Like Richmond, they've set themselves up to never quite be good enough to win a flag. Best thing they could have done was offload their ageing guys last season because it meant they've at least started a rebuild. They have a much better group of kids that the Hawks.

Not disputing that we could have done better while we were up. We can only lament what might have been in 2002, 2003 (to a lesser extent), 2007, and 2011.

 

[good4footy]

Great that Pendles has gone into bat for Bucks. You would rather the playing group be in that state of mind than the group MM left him with in 2012.

However, when players can lead to a coach being dumped 9 rounds into a year after a grand final, like Peter Moore and his clan did to Tommy Hafey, then IMO player input should be a very small consideration to a coaching decision.

Players love or hate coaches for a number of reasons but expertise on what makes a good coach and the ability to compare them to other current available coaches is not a skill set many have. Their opinion is insignificant as 'not having lost the players' should be the absoulute minimum requirement of a coach, not something to a base a decision on whether to keep going with him or not.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

You call it nonsense I call it a fact.

Nonsense is you calling Bart Cummings a genius yet AFL Coaches (e.g Bevo, Clarko, Bolto.......) are over rated hacks.

Ahem, not sure I'd ever called anyone a hack or over rated hacks.
Better if we keep within the use of language that has been used.

I admire Agree both Clarkson and Beveridge are very good at what they do, never said otherwise, that I can recall.
You might be right, I don't rate Bolton as such, he's more like a good assistant coach to me.
Too much Boy Scout.

I have said, many times as it were, that coaches are over rated in comparison to having quality players.

Unsure why this is not understood?

Better players make a good coach a better coach.

If Nathan Buckley was coaching GWS they'd be in as strong position as they have a strong list.

But anyway, this whole discussion is very circular.

Whilst Nathan coaching us is not an issue for me, it is for others.
Understand that point of view even if I have a different view point.

The board will make its call when it does.

As you mentioned Mr Cummings, without the horse flesh he wouldn't have won major races either.
Need the ability.

Where he is the exception is that last bit he gets out of them via his training program. Feeding regime.
And he had an intricate eye for horse things.

But they the horses must have the talent.

Most better trainers are grouped together, get the horse fit, know their business, place them well, and if the horse has the ability and a bit of luck they win. It's not rocket science.

One other thing, Bart was the exception, he had a genius far above mortal men and women in racing.

Not sure Nathan or Alistair are exceptional geniuses though Alistair has the score on the board and is outstanding at what he does.

But to emphasise nobody was called a hack.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

When was the last time you heard a player come out and say "no we can't stand the coach and want him gone, he has no idea what he's doing" NEVER. It's just a well driller media performer doing what he has to do. I have no problem with that, but its the player equivalent of the "full support of the board".

Good on him for doing it, but what else was he going to say?

Yes that's what any player would say especially a captain, agree.

Though he was emphatic

 

[ThexderX]

Geelong lucked out sweeping the F/S pool which set the club up really well yet despite that we are already seeing some decline in their performances. They may well figure in the 8 for a few more seasons off the back of individual brilliance from all too few but they'll also eventually pay a price for trying to squeeze too much success out of a squad by their recruiting of the Henderson and Tuohy types. They'll likely lose Lonergan and Mackie, Taylor 31 this year, Hawkins and Selwood both 29. I don't think they've actually gone into a rebuild, just plastered over a few cracks.

St Kilda are rebuilding quite nicely. Not sure too many Saints supporters can't see that.

Hawks still have more pain to come. Burgoyne, Gibson, Hodge still form the core of their best players week to week. They've got a couple of really promising kids, just not enough to pick up the slack for the ageing warriors.

North have continually tried to cheat the natural flow of things. Like Richmond, they've set themselves up to never quite be good enough to win a flag. Best thing they could have done was offload their ageing guys last season because it meant they've at least started a rebuild. They have a much better group of kids that the Hawks.

Not disputing that we could have done better while we were up. We can only lament what might have been in 2002, 2003 (to a lesser extent), 2007, and 2011.

I think you're missing a really important point though, Scott has a premiership, Clarkson has 4. That buys a lot of wriggle room. Bucks doesn't have the same latitude as those guys as he has no premierships under his belt and has the unfortunate FACT of taking the club backwards for 6 straight years.

Richo is only in, what, his 3rd or 4th year - still got 2 or 3 years to prove himself if he gets 6 years like Bucks. He has also gone in an upward direction and we all know that..Bucks hasn't....and we all know that.

I think you're finding some pretty convenient excuses or justifications for Geelong' success. Player talent doesn't necessarily equal success. Just ask the Suns and GWS who are yet to win the big one....I don't think anyone argues player talent obviously makes a huge difference, but coaching that talent out is equally important.....otherwise just hire me as the coach, save the money, recruit well and we'll be laughing.

 

[jackcass]

I think you're missing a really important point though, Scott has a premiership, Clarkson has 4. That buys a lot of wriggle room. Bucks doesn't have the same latitude as those guys as he has no premierships under his belt and has the unfortunate FACT of taking the club backwards for 6 straight years.

Richo is only in, what, his 3rd or 4th year - still got 2 or 3 years to prove himself if he gets 6 years like Bucks. He has also gone in an upward direction and we all know that..Bucks hasn't....and we all know that.

I think you're finding some pretty convenient excuses or justifications for Geelong' success. Player talent doesn't necessarily equal success. Just ask the Suns and GWS who are yet to win the big one....I don't think anyone argues player talent obviously makes a huge difference, but coaching that talent out is equally important.....otherwise just hire me as the coach, save the money, recruit well and we'll be laughing.

I completely appreciate the point and I'm on record as saying I doubt a panel of Jock McHale, Tom Hafey, and Norm Smith would have done any better than Bucks over the last 3 seasons so I'm happy he's been given some time. Still not convinced about him coaching beyond this year, the remainder of the season will dictate how I feel about that. I do get the feeling though that he'll be extended for at least 2018.

Not making any excuses for Geelong. They got lucky on the F/S front and had a couple of sensational drafts which built the core of a very capable and durable team.

GWS now have pumped games into a very youthful talent pool and now have the experience in their squad to start delivering. Been significantly impacted by injury this year but still managing to do okay, Still the team to beat in 2017 for mine. In terms of coaching they've had 2x premiership coaches on their panel in Sheedy and Williams who didn't win them a flag. Primarily because of the age/experience profile of the squad, nothing to do with the ability of the coaches.

GCS have made stuff up after stuff up in their list build which explains why they're where they are despite those few they did get right.

I think you're over simplifying what is in fact a very complex process largely influenced by luck all of which suggests you're not the coach we need.

 

[Chameleon75]

They were just using tongue in cheek about showing how numbers can be used to whatever effect.

People seem to take everything so seriously.

It's not the end of the world if people have different points of view.

I do get it, in football we are taught from day one, the coach is this mythical being, all powerful.

Ultimately coaches are judged by wins and premierships. Some have dropped off Ross Lyon, drew a grand final, didn't win, got close two other times, so he's kind of off the radar because no flags. One point more in the draw he becomes mythical.

Nobody ever talks about Bob Rose as a great coach, he missed by 4 points, 1 point, 10 points after leading by 44 points at half time.

Nathan, like most coaches, may never succeed. It's that ruthless.
But I bet half of the flops as coaches would have done far better if they had better players, or a drop of luck.

All I know for certain, Allan Jeans is regarded as one of greatest coaches ever.
Had 16 years at St Kilda, good group, one flag.
Helped get him the hawthorn gig, wins 3 flags more.
Had Matthews, Tuck, Ayres, Langford, Jarman, Platten, Brereton, Dunstall, Hall, Buckenara.
You reckon with that lot you don't win flags?

But anyway, as time goes on, people will likely get their wish, the guillotine will come.

Then we can get busy and start on the new bloke.... matter of time.....

Cruel business coaching, no love lost, people hate you, people Bay for blood. Not for the feint hearted.

Just saying.

Your basic premise that you need the talent I agree with, it's the foundation without that you have nothing, but I do think you under sell the impact of coaches in the modern era.

The hawthorn team that you used as an example existed in an era where the talent differential across the competition was stark, weekly floggings were routine, and that side had so much talent that Ablett and Millane walked out without them shrugging. In that context sure coaching isn't that critical.

But bring them into 2017, no zone giving exclusive access to a bumper crop of kids, salary cap limiting the amount of top end talent you can carry, they don't acquire or keep that team together. In today's equal by design competition, coaching becomes more important.

All coaches focus on 1%ers, do the small things better than your opponents and you have an advantage, I put coaching along with conditioning etc as another one of those 1%ers.

And now with the footy department equalisation coaching is one of the few areas where you can get a competitive advantage, (at least until the afl works out how to equalise intelligence).

Now I'm not making an argument for or against Buckley here, just don't agree with how little you rate coaching (except Matthews you seem to like him).

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Your basic premise that you need the talent I agree with, it's the foundation without that you have nothing, but I do think you under sell the impact of coaches in the modern era.

The hawthorn team that you used as an example existed in an era where the talent differential across the competition was stark, weekly floggings were routine, and that side had so much talent that Ablett and Millane walked out without them shrugging. In that context sure coaching isn't that critical.

But bring them into 2017, no zone giving exclusive access to a bumper crop of kids, salary cap limiting the amount of top end talent you can carry, they don't acquire or keep that team together. In today's equal by design competition, coaching becomes more important.

All coaches focus on 1%ers, do the small things better than your opponents and you have an advantage, I put coaching along with conditioning etc as another one of those 1%ers.

And now with the footy department equalisation coaching is one of the few areas where you can get a competitive advantage, (at least until the afl works out how to equalise intelligence).

Now I'm not making an argument for or against Buckley here, just don't agree with how little you rate coaching (except Matthews you seem to like him).

Not sure how you can say I like Matthews.... love him

 

[ThexderX]

I completely appreciate the point and I'm on record as saying I doubt a panel of Jock McHale, Tom Hafey, and Norm Smith would have done any better than Bucks over the last 3 seasons so I'm happy he's been given some time. Still not convinced about him coaching beyond this year, the remainder of the season will dictate how I feel about that. I do get the feeling though that he'll be extended for at least 2018.

Not making any excuses for Geelong. They got lucky on the F/S front and had a couple of sensational drafts which built the core of a very capable and durable team.

GWS now have pumped games into a very youthful talent pool and now have the experience in their squad to start delivering. Been significantly impacted by injury this year but still managing to do okay, Still the team to beat in 2017 for mine. In terms of coaching they've had 2x premiership coaches on their panel in Sheedy and Williams who didn't win them a flag. Primarily because of the age/experience profile of the squad, nothing to do with the ability of the coaches.

GCS have made stuff up after stuff up in their list build which explains why they're where they are despite those few they did get right.

I think you're over simplifying what is in fact a very complex process largely influenced by luck all of which suggests you're not the coach we need.

See there is the difference...they had two experienced premiership coaches early on, the Gold Coast didn't and went with a rookie....the difference in the two clubs is now very clear.

Yes of course if you put McHale, Matthews, Haffey and Sheedy at the Kyabram 3rds, they wouldn't just walk into the AFL and win the flag. But what makes them great coaches and wins them premierships is the mix of game style, player developments and many other things that no one can really put into words.

I think the point with Bucks is, you have to reach a point where as a club you have to decide does this person have whatever it is that takes to be a successful coach and win us our next premiership. In my opinion, which respectfully differs to yours and many others, is that I think we have enough evidence to support he doesn't have "it". Great bloke, great club man, love him, but in my opinion we know what we need to know to make a decision.

That the club hasn't already re-appointed him, in my opinion, is confirmation to me they know the answer, but don't want the media fuss....he will not be re-signed.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

See there is the difference...they had two experienced premiership coaches early on, the Gold Coast didn't and went with a rookie....the difference in the two clubs is now very clear.

Yes of course if you put McHale, Matthews, Haffey and Sheedy at the Kyabram 3rds, they wouldn't just walk into the AFL and win the flag. But what makes them great coaches and wins them premierships is the mix of game style, player developments and many other things that no one can really put into words.

I think the point with Bucks is, you have to reach a point where as a club you have to decide does this person have whatever it is that takes to be a successful coach and win us our next premiership. In my opinion, which respectfully differs to yours and many others, is that I think we have enough evidence to support he doesn't have "it". Great bloke, great club man, love him, but in my opinion we know what we need to know to make a decision.

That the club hasn't already re-appointed him, in my opinion, is confirmation to me they know the answer, but don't want the media fuss....he will not be re-signed.

You have argued your points well.

Only thing, I think the boards being quiet on all this till now, is actually a precursor to an extension coming.

I've been wrong before, but that's what I think will happen.

(That's regardless of how I feel about it, just what I think will happen.)

 

[ThexderX]

Hay

You have argued your points well.

Only thing, I think the boards being quiet on all this till now, is actually a precursor to an extension coming.

I've been wrong before, but that's what I think will happen.

(That's regardless of how I feel about it, just what I think will happen.)

Hey mate, I think you 'argue' your points well too and whilst we disagree, being respectful is important and you are respectful in your disagreement and I hope I have been the same.

It's a passionate sport and we all love our club and ultimately we are all entitled to our opinions.

For the record, god I hope Buck's proves me wrong, wins every game on the way home, makes the finals, wins all 4 finals and hold up that cup in one hand and his middle finger up with the other hand.

Cheers,

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Hay

Hey mate, I think you 'argue' your points well too and whilst we disagree, being respectful is important and you are respectful in your disagreement and I hope I have been the same.

It's a passionate sport and we all love our club and ultimately we are all entitled to our opinions.

For the record, god I hope Buck's proves me wrong, wins every game on the way home, makes the finals, wins all 4 finals and hold up that cup in one hand and his middle finger up with the other hand.

Cheers,

I sunspect overall at some point (say 2 more years) there will be some one new all the same.
And we'll still be on 15 flags.

But hope beats eternal ....

 

[doppleganger]

All strong arguments, but what has happened in the following 6 years cannot be argued.

Scott has taken Geelong to the finals each year rebuilding his team as much as Buckley has rebuilt his (I don't have the stats of player turnover etc, but would be happy to proven wrong as to the list turnover of both clubs since 2010/11).

Scott took over Geelong in 2010, they haven't played finals each year since.

They slid down the mountain after 2011, bundled out in EF in 2012. Out in straight sets in 2014 and 2015 missed the finals altogether.

They then went and traded for Danger, Henderson, Z.Smith and S.Selwood all guys in the 26-27 peak age...and bounced back up.

It is a different strategy to us, we let go guys in their peak and went for kids or draft picks.

But Scott also couldn't stop the slide down to missing finals, Geelong just chose to invest in senior blokes to boost them immediately...very short term strategy.

Pies consistently going long term with key trades all young, and using free agents to add veterans...if kids build together a chance for prolonged success, but need kids to actually develop...to date it appears we may have picked poorly with our selection of kids.

 

[jackcass]

See there is the difference...they had two experienced premiership coaches early on, the Gold Coast didn't and went with a rookie....the difference in the two clubs is now very clear.

Yes of course if you put McHale, Matthews, Haffey and Sheedy at the Kyabram 3rds, they wouldn't just walk into the AFL and win the flag. But what makes them great coaches and wins them premierships is the mix of game style, player developments and many other things that no one can really put into words.

I think the point with Bucks is, you have to reach a point where as a club you have to decide does this person have whatever it is that takes to be a successful coach and win us our next premiership. In my opinion, which respectfully differs to yours and many others, is that I think we have enough evidence to support he doesn't have "it". Great bloke, great club man, love him, but in my opinion we know what we need to know to make a decision.

That the club hasn't already re-appointed him, in my opinion, is confirmation to me they know the answer, but don't want the media fuss....he will not be re-signed.

Happy to agree to disagree.

GCS issues have less to do with the coach they initially appointed and more to do with their recruiting when they established themselves. GWS for all their undeniable talent, 2x senior premiership coaches laying the foundations, Cameron is still into his 4th year without a premiership to his name.

For the record, I don't factor in that Buckley is a club great when evaluating his coaching tenure.

 

[ThexderX]

Scott took over Geelong in 2010, they haven't played finals each year since.

They slid down the mountain after 2011, bundled out in EF in 2012. Out in straight sets in 2014 and 2015 missed the finals altogether.

They then went and traded for Danger, Henderson, Z.Smith and S.Selwood all guys in the 26-27 peak age...and bounced back up.

It is a different strategy to us, we let go guys in their peak and went for kids or draft picks.

But Scott also couldn't stop the slide down to missing finals, Geelong just chose to invest in senior blokes to boost them immediately...very short term strategy.

Pies consistently going long term with key trades all young, and using free agents to add veterans...if kids build together a chance for prolonged success, but need kids to actually develop...to date it appears we may have picked poorly with our selection of kids.

I don't recall Geelong missing the finals?

Never the less, it would be hard to argue Geelong aren't in front of us 6 years after beating us for a premiership.

I guess time will tell which strategy wins a premiership first.

 

[JB1975]

If Bucks doesn't walk or Eddie doesn't show him the door we should all revolt outside the Westpac Centre. I've had enough.

I used to revolt the contents of my stomach outside a lot of nightclubs back in the day. It's a messy sort of business. While it no doubt causes a bit of inconvenience, the message tends to get lost amidst the particles of potato cakes and dim sims.

 

[doppleganger]

Jackcass could it be because Lyon left behind a team of geriatrics and Malthouse left behind the youngest Premiership team in HISTORY?

It was youngest team on the day, but that is partly because Presti pulled out, and Mm dropped Leon for the replay.

For finals we went with Blair and Macaffer instead of Lockyer and Medhurst.

Presti, Leon, Medhurst, Locker,.Fraser and O'bree were all on the list in 2010, playing games and providing great leadership and depth.

2011 we again topped up with Taz n Krak.

The list itself wasn't young when we won the flag, and when Buckley took over the injuries, and retirements exposed a severe lack of depth.

 

[CFC2010]

It was youngest team on the day, but that is partly because Presti pulled out, and Mm dropped Leon for the replay.
For finals we went with Blair and Macaffer instead of Lockyer and Medhurst
Presti, Leon, Medhurst, Locker,.Fraser and O'bree were all on the list in 2010, playing games and providing great leadership and depth.
2011 we again topped up with Taz n Krak.

The list itself wasn't young when we won the flag, and when Buckley took over the injuries, and retirements exposed a severe lack of depth.

So it was the youngest ever?

That's what I said. Try not to re-write history.

 

[doppleganger]

I don't recall Geelong missing the finals?

Never the less, it would be hard to argue Geelong aren't in front of us 6 years after beating us for a premiership.

I guess time will tell which strategy wins a premiership first.

They are only in front because they went and recruited Danger, Henderson, S.Selwood, Z.Smith, Thouy...since 2015.

They deliberately brought in a bunch of guys in the 26-27 year age group for immediate impact.

It is working, but they fell away just like we did following the 2011 GF.

Geelong won just 1 final after the 11 premiership and finding themselves out of the finals.

The same as us.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

It was youngest team on the day, but that is partly because Presti pulled out, and Mm dropped Leon for the replay.

For finals we went with Blair and Macaffer instead of Lockyer and Medhurst.

Presti, Leon, Medhurst, Locker,.Fraser and O'bree were all on the list in 2010, playing games and providing great leadership and depth.

2011 we again topped up with Taz n Krak.

The list itself wasn't young when we won the flag, and when Buckley took over the injuries, and retirements exposed a severe lack of depth.

Maccafer I got in being picked 2010, just could not get my head around Blair getting a finals run.

And on recollection didn't do that much, just ok.
Lockyer or Davis for me every time.