Mega Thread The 2017 'Buckley's Chances' Thread

[ant22]

Exactly, 2008 - premiers, 2009 - 9th

They rebound to play in a prelim in 11 a GF in 12 and then won the next 3. To compare we would need to be on track to play in the GF this year. They regressed for 2 years not 6 and counting.

 

[Roverjg]

Brad Scott 7 years
Damien Hardwick 7 years
Gary Ayres 9 years
Neal Daniher 9 years

And that is without even giving it too much thought

In fairness BJ, these coaches improved their teams position during their coaching tenure. Something Bucks has not been able to do in 6 years.
Coach/ Position/ Wins
Hardwick: 15/16 (6); 12/17 (8); 12/18 (10); 5/18 (15); 8/18 (12); 5/18 (15); 13/18 (8); currently 4/18 (9)
Ayres: Gee: 2/16 (16); 7/16 (13); 2/16 (15); 12/16 (9); 11/16 (10); Ade: 11/16 (9); 8/16 (12); 3/16 (15); 6/16 (13); - sacked 12 games into 5th season
Daniher: 4/16 (14); 14/16 (6); RU; 11/16 (10); 6/16 (12); 14/16 (5); 5/16 (14); 7/16 (12); 7/16 (13) - sacked 12 games into 10th season
The Kangaroos have made the finals 4 times in 7 years under Scott including 2 Prelinary Finals
Buckley: 4/18 (16); 6/18 (14); 11/18 (11); 12/18 (10); 12/18 (9) and currently 15/18 (5)

What's worse is that we have regressed on last year, despite having minimal injuries. So what is our excuse this year??

Here is an extract from today's paper:
"Here is the stunning stat that would worry the Collingwood board as well as its football department.

Collingwood’s top 10 players from the 2016 best-and-fairest have missed a total of three games with injury this year. Yep, three. Of the top six players in the count, they have played every game bar Adam Treloar’s single absence in Round 8. Scott Pendlebury, Steele Sidebottom, Brodie Grundy, Jeremy Howe, Taylor Adams and Jack Crisp have played every game. Josh Smith (seventh) has been dropped but hasn’t missed with injury, Levi Greenwood (eighth) missed two weeks with a hammy and Jarryd Blair has been in and out on form.

Of the players outside the top 10, Jamie Elliott has played nine games, Darcy Moore 14, Alex Fasolo 13. Daniel Wells has missed seven and Travis Varcoe eight but consider Melbourne’s eight wins despite playing without Max Gawn, Jesse Hogan and Nathan Jones, among others.

In August 2015, after another failed season, Buckley said: “We have got plans and designs about what our team is going to look like in 2017-18 when we think this particular evolution of our list is going to reach its full maturity.’’

Now Buckley says the fans must wait for this youthful group to mature into their mid and late-20s before we see their full talent realised.

The definition of insanity often attributed to Einstein is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

What exactly will Buckley change with his game style and list management to keep a sinking ship afloat?

Damien Hardwick didn’t just expect Richmond to rebound, he changed his entire game plan, recruited smartly, admitted his coaching flaws and addressed them.

Rolling Buckley over for one more season would just create 12 more months of discussion and controversy. Assessing all options with Buckley’s full knowledge and then extending his contract — if that is the board’s decision — would actually give him a mandate for the future.

FIT TO SERVE

Games lost to injury this year by Collingwood’s 2016 best and fairest Top 10

1. Scott Pendlebury 0

2. Adam Treloar 1

3. Steele Sidebottom 0

4. Brodie Grundy 0

5. Jeremy Howe 0

6. Taylor Adams 0

7. Josh Smith 0 (dropped for three games)

8. Levi Greenwood 2

9. Jack Crisp 0

10 Jarryd Blair 0 (played just six AFL games on form)

Champion Data says Collingwood has lost 81 games to injury, the ninth-most in the competition.

Nine players have played every game — Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Howe, Grundy, Adams, Crisp, Moore, Maynard, Hoskin-Elliott"

 

[Scodog10]

Hi guys,

Please don't shoot the messenger, but I just thought I would share a snippet of information I heard from Carlton CEO / former Crows CEO Steven Trigg.

He said informally at a function that only Collingwood would be having the discussion about Buck's future at this stage, and that at any other club his job would be safe. His words were (more or less): "Who else could Collingwood get that would do a better job with the team than Nathan Buckley?"
Others including Crows CEO Andrew Fagan concurred.

Make of that what you will, I just thought it was an interesting perspective.

I find it interesting that he made those comments, but didn't have the common sense to realise that Buckley played a role in building the list! Statements like his completely overlook certain areas of regression. Whilst it usually boggles the mind to hear people comment like that, from Trigg I get it. He's almost as big a pickle as Pert.

 

[mike123]

Exactly, 2008 - premiers, 2009 - 9th

That's the perspective from 2012 but nice try...


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jackcass]

For those people who want to re-contract Buckley for another season or two; I would like to read some reasons why you want him to stay.

Please restrict your reasoning to coaching matters only.

Don't talk about player injuries, poor list management decisions; multiple football manager changes as reasons why Buckley should get a chop out and therefore get extended.

What coaching decisions do you think Buckley has made on & off the field that shows that Bucks has done enough to keep his job.

I actually haven't made up my mind yet about 2018. Don't think the ladder tells the full story of our season and think we've improved a lot since 2016 as articulated in this thread.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...sis-inc-fa-draft-trade.1170338/#post-51156336

 

[ant22]

For those people who want to re-contract Buckley for another season or two; I would like to read some reasons why you want him to stay.

Please restrict your reasoning to coaching matters only.

Don't talk about player injuries, poor list management decisions; multiple football manager changes as reasons why Buckley should get a chop out and therefore get extended.

What coaching decisions do you think Buckley has made on & off the field that shows that Bucks has done enough to keep his job.

That's all the apologists have Peter. They make excuses(many of which are myths) and try and find holes in the arguments of those who want change.

It's not personal. Love Bucks but he has not got the job done. Im sure he is doing and has done what he thinks is right but it has not worked so seeya later.

 

[jackcass]

That's the perspective from 2012 but nice try...


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Nice try, Trent Croad last played in 2008.

 

[jackcass]

They rebound to play in a prelim in 11 a GF in 12 and then won the next 3. To compare we would need to be on track to play in the GF this year. They regressed for 2 years not 6 and counting.

No, to compare you'd actually have to assess their respective lists at those times and what occurred beyond 2008 and 2010 respectively.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Give him a chance for what? He took over when he shouldnt have so giving him any slack whatsoever is beyond a joke. You take over when the team is flying you better perform and giving him years to "settle into the job" is hilarious.

Many thought like you back then and here we are years later a basket case so your the last person to lecture about what should have and shouldnt have been. You have NFI.

You were making calls about gameplan within the first few games of 2012 and you want to assess others as having no idea? Many who hated Bucks' appointment from the start love to point out that the gameplan wasn't changed much so Buckley couldn't be assessed on his first year. Where does that put you? Enlightened or NFI? Embrace the latter.

Many take into account a number of variables when making an assessment. You take into account how many of your own fingers you've broken.

 

[Anzacday]

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...lace-buckley-with-rhyce-shaw-in-2020.1169114/

I just don't get why people say bad things about you PB.

 

[jackcass]

In fairness BJ, these coaches improved their teams position during their coaching tenure. Something Bucks has not been able to do in 6 years.
Coach/ Position/ Wins
Hardwick: 15/16 (6); 12/17 (8); 12/18 (10); 5/18 (15); 8/18 (12); 5/18 (15); 13/18 (8); currently 4/18 (9)
Ayres: Gee: 2/16 (16); 7/16 (13); 2/16 (15); 12/16 (9); 11/16 (10); Ade: 11/16 (9); 8/16 (12); 3/16 (15); 6/16 (13); - sacked 12 games into 5th season
Daniher: 4/16 (14); 14/16 (6); RU; 11/16 (10); 6/16 (12); 14/16 (5); 5/16 (14); 7/16 (12); 7/16 (13) - sacked 12 games into 10th season
The Kangaroos have made the finals 4 times in 7 years under Scott including 2 Prelinary Finals
Buckley: 4/18 (16); 6/18 (14); 11/18 (11); 12/18 (10); 12/18 (9) and currently 15/18 (5)

What's worse is that we have regressed on last year, despite having minimal injuries. So what is our excuse this year??

Here is an extract from today's paper:
"Here is the stunning stat that would worry the Collingwood board as well as its football department.

Collingwood’s top 10 players from the 2016 best-and-fairest have missed a total of three games with injury this year. Yep, three. Of the top six players in the count, they have played every game bar Adam Treloar’s single absence in Round 8. Scott Pendlebury, Steele Sidebottom, Brodie Grundy, Jeremy Howe, Taylor Adams and Jack Crisp have played every game. Josh Smith (seventh) has been dropped but hasn’t missed with injury, Levi Greenwood (eighth) missed two weeks with a hammy and Jarryd Blair has been in and out on form.

Of the players outside the top 10, Jamie Elliott has played nine games, Darcy Moore 14, Alex Fasolo 13. Daniel Wells has missed seven and Travis Varcoe eight but consider Melbourne’s eight wins despite playing without Max Gawn, Jesse Hogan and Nathan Jones, among others.

In August 2015, after another failed season, Buckley said: “We have got plans and designs about what our team is going to look like in 2017-18 when we think this particular evolution of our list is going to reach its full maturity.’’

Now Buckley says the fans must wait for this youthful group to mature into their mid and late-20s before we see their full talent realised.

The definition of insanity often attributed to Einstein is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

What exactly will Buckley change with his game style and list management to keep a sinking ship afloat?

Damien Hardwick didn’t just expect Richmond to rebound, he changed his entire game plan, recruited smartly, admitted his coaching flaws and addressed them.

Rolling Buckley over for one more season would just create 12 more months of discussion and controversy. Assessing all options with Buckley’s full knowledge and then extending his contract — if that is the board’s decision — would actually give him a mandate for the future.

FIT TO SERVE

Games lost to injury this year by Collingwood’s 2016 best and fairest Top 10

1. Scott Pendlebury 0

2. Adam Treloar 1

3. Steele Sidebottom 0

4. Brodie Grundy 0

5. Jeremy Howe 0

6. Taylor Adams 0

7. Josh Smith 0 (dropped for three games)

8. Levi Greenwood 2

9. Jack Crisp 0

10 Jarryd Blair 0 (played just six AFL games on form)

Champion Data says Collingwood has lost 81 games to injury, the ninth-most in the competition.

Nine players have played every game — Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Howe, Grundy, Adams, Crisp, Moore, Maynard, Hoskin-Elliott"

I'm not sure our 2016 Copeland top 10 is all that reflective of who most would consider the top 10 players at the club. Diminishes the merit of the premise. That 1/2 those guys were resilient enough to make the top 10 ahead of more fancied players at the club actually supports that injuries were in deed a factor in 2016, little else.

I don't recall anyone suggesting that injuries have been a significant factor this season. Would have been nice to have Wells, Elliott and Varcoe available every game but their absence is not even close to the principle reason we've lost games this year.

 

[ottoman]

Yep, got it, lets keep changing the criteria of the question until the only answer can be, Buckley can't coach

Why not change the criteria and you provide proof that he can coach.
Good game plan - No, putrid game plan
Good player development - No. Average player development
Improvement - No. Constant regression since day 1

So if all the Buckley apologist could stop having pot shots at those who want change and give us some proof he can coach, that would be nice.

Instead what we get is
Game plan - It's not buckleys fault the players miss targets
Cattle - It's not buckley's fault players get injured. It's not Buckleys fault who gets recruited
List - It's still young (which it's not) need to give it time to develop. Not Buckleys fault

Blah blah blah blah.

6th year of regression. Not one single year where we have improved, nor does it look like we are going to. That says it all for me.

We're not far off - Yep been hearing that for the past 4 years as well.

He was given the opportunity to build his own list which he has done. Let's not sugar coat it, it's a shit list.

 

[Kilmo]

Informal function in terms of some CEOs and not others?
That aside, Trigg and those concurring may have assessed our list etc and come to the conclusion that a coaching change is pointless. Making shit up because I have no idea what he based those comments on.

I find it interesting that he made those comments, but didn't have the common sense to realise that Buckley played a role in building the list! Statements like his completely overlook certain areas of regression. Whilst it usually boggles the mind to hear people comment like that, from Trigg I get it. He's almost as big a pickle as Pert.

I'll also add that these comments were made around the bye (following the loss to Melbourne). A comment was made that a difference of a handful of points in games such as the Giants and Melbourne game would have had us sitting in the top 8 and therefore the discussion wouldn't be occurring. Subsequent spankings by Port and Hawthorn (kinda) change that context a bit, as we are now sitting about one millionth on the ladder.

 

[jdpie]

A 5 year old could have coached that team to a prelim.


Why has Geelong consitantly played finals minus 1 year since Chris Scott took over and look a massive chance to take the flag this year?

Of course the only way is down but doesn't mean down forever. 6 years in decline now a bottom 4 finish looks likely

Yet a hell of a lot of Cats supporters bemoan the coaching competency of Scott in the heat of the battle. I would argue they are no closer to winning a flag than they were in 2012 but have mortgaged their future in the Danger stakes. There really is only one premiership worthy list going around this year and their coach is struggling to drive that Ferrari. There is fair argument to suggest the most meritorious coaching performance of the year rests with the guy who has the bottom placed team.
Even the shine is off the Bevo wagon. Maybe the coaching gig is far more complicated and volatile than we know and without competent support from the Senior Management Team you have no hope. What i know is when Mick was in charge neither Pert nor Eddie dared to stick their head into footy affairs. That stopped the minute he exited. Perty is in the footy department more than his own office. Autonomy only works in 1 direction in the joint.

 

[ant22]

Yet a hell of a lot of Cats supporters bemoan the coaching competency of Scott in the heat of the battle. I would argue they are no closer to winning a flag than they were in 2012 but have mortgaged their future in the Danger stakes. There really is only one premiership worthy list going around this year and their coach is struggling to drive that Ferrari. There is fair argument to suggest the most meritorious coaching performance of the year rests with the guy who has the bottom placed team.
Even the shine is off the Bevo wagon. Maybe the coaching gig is far more complicated and volatile than we know and without competent support from the Senior Management Team you have no hope. What i know is when Mick was in charge neither Pert nor Eddie dared to stick their head into footy affairs. That stopped the minute he exited. Perty is in the footy department more than his own office. Autonomy only works in 1 direction in the joint.

Bucks has absolutely coached the way he wants to coach. The game plan is his, the direction of the club and trading of players was his. It may have changed in the last 12 months or so because the results have been crap but certainly in the first 4 to 5 years bucks was the main decision maker when it came to football matters. If you don't believe me go and sought out the likes of Ben Hart, Craig Mcrae and Steve Grace. They will tell you with Bucks its my way or the highway. He is not the first coach to be like this and if it works great but when its not working then perhaps its time to listen to people around you.

 

[HeathySure]

For those people who want to re-contract Buckley for another season or two; I would like to read some reasons why you want him to stay.

Please restrict your reasoning to coaching matters only.

Don't talk about player injuries, poor list management decisions; multiple football manager changes as reasons why Buckley should get a chop out and therefore get extended.

What coaching decisions do you think Buckley has made on & off the field that shows that Bucks has done enough to keep his job.

I once asked this question and got responses like "if you dont know we wont tell you"
they have no answer other than blind love

 

[jackcass]

Why not change the criteria and you provide proof that he can coach.
Good game plan - No, putrid game plan
Good player development - No. Average player development
Improvement - No. Constant regression since day 1

So if all the Buckley apologist could stop having pot shots at those who want change and give us some proof he can coach, that would be nice.

Instead what we get is
Game plan - It's not buckleys fault the players miss targets
Cattle - It's not buckley's fault players get injured. It's not Buckleys fault who gets recruited
List - It's still young (which it's not) need to give it time to develop. Not Buckleys fault

Blah blah blah blah.

6th year of regression. Not one single year where we have improved, nor does it look like we are going to. That says it all for me.

We're not far off - Yep been hearing that for the past 4 years as well.

He was given the opportunity to build his own list which he has done. Let's not sugar coat it, it's a shit list.

I've never absolved Buck's from ultimate responsibility or the overall FD for their role. Nor MM for that matter and he remains complicit how Collingwood performs in 2017 as the core of the team should have been built during his tenure. I think we have a good list, it's got flaws and there are players on it I wouldn't have recruited, but overall it's a good young list. I think we've improved just about every area this year except our work inside F50 and if Faz was converting at something like his 2016 rate even that wouldn't be so bad.

I do however find it interesting that those who hold these negative opinions rely heavily on the "regression" and "best young list" type arguments as the basis of their entire case, demand those with alternate views to prove their case, then totally ignore or dismiss those arguments purely because they don't accord with their views. I'm yet to see anyone on that side of the argument actually produce any decent analysis to support them, just the same tired "regression" and "best young list" over and over while at the same time I have seen those on the positive side of the argument produce well written, considered, factually based assessments and analysis. Strange really.

 

[ottoman]

For those people who want to re-contract Buckley for another season or two; I would like to read some reasons why you want him to stay.

Please restrict your reasoning to coaching matters only.

Don't talk about player injuries, poor list management decisions; multiple football manager changes as reasons why Buckley should get a chop out and therefore get extended.

What coaching decisions do you think Buckley has made on & off the field that shows that Bucks has done enough to keep his job.

The truth is those who support him do so purely due to emotions.
My mum thinks I'm the most handsome, intelligent, caring, wonderful and honest person in the world. The truth is I have told the odd lie. The rest is pretty accurate. The point is she can't assess me objectively.
Reading those who are in full support of Buckley I see the same thing. An inability to look at the situation objectively.

 

[Carringbush2010]

How 'recent'?

• Guy McKenna's reputation as a man-manager was lower than shark sh1it when he was sacked from one of the most plum gigs in all of football at GC.
• Brendan McCartney, read above.
• Justin Leppitsch ring any bells?
• How's Ross Lyon's rebuild going at Fremantle after failing with the 'list he inherited'?
• Mick Malthouse did wonders at Carlton - a list with 5 #1 picks that was supposedly good enough to push deep into September?
• Ken Hinkley has been up and down at Port.
• Brad Scott maxed out an old list, never finished inside the top 4, 'achieved' a couple of prelim thumpings and then created a PR nightmare with Boomer and co.

How far back do you want to go?

I'd be embarrassed for you if you asked a ridiculous, theoretical, speculative question like that to a CEO, or anyone in football.

Guy Mckenna - not sure what you're getting at there
McCartney and Leppitsch had 3 years - that's half what bucks has had for similar results
Freo currently doing better than us and could argue their future is no worse than ours
MM never had the list at carlton regardless of what anyone said
Hinkley has had more success at port than bucks with us - moot point
Brad Scott has taken north to 2 prelims - that's top 4

 

[ottoman]

I've never absolved Buck's from ultimate responsibility or the overall FD for their role. Nor MM for that matter and he remains complicit how Collingwood performs in 2017 as the core of the team should have been built during his tenure. I think we have a good list, it's got flaws and there are players on it I wouldn't have recruited, but overall it's a good young list. I think we've improved just about every area this year except our work inside F50 and if Faz was converting at something like his 2016 rate even that wouldn't be so bad.

I do however find it interesting that those who hold these negative opinions rely heavily on the "regression" and "best young list" type arguments as the basis of their entire case, demand those with alternate views to prove their case, then totally ignore or dismiss those arguments purely because they don't accord with their views. I'm yet to see anyone on that side of the argument actually produce any decent analysis to support them, just the same tired "regression" and "best young list" over and over while at the same time I have seen those on the positive side of the argument produce well written, considered, factually based assessments and analysis. Strange really.

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of our list. At the moment we are talking "potential" not proven.
Of the younger players I think only Maynard has shown serious promise.
DeG - Has played one good game and we are all jerking off about it. But I would put him in the high potential category.
Moore - Nothing special as yet but I would also put him in the high potential category.

Daicos, Brown, Wills, Sier, The two Mc's, Kirby all unknown.
Aish - Nothing player (from what we have seen)
Broomhead - Nothing player to date
Treloar - Very good player but downhill skier
Schade - pfft
Adams - Love the guy but turnover merchant and chronic butcher of the ball
Langdon - Makes up numbers
Faz - Up and down
WHE - Makes butter look like superman
Greenwood - Honest toiler is all
Phillips - Has some decision making issues but I think he will be good
Smith - Vanilla
Reid - Cooked
Wells - Good for a few games a year
Varcoe - Same as Wells
Mayne - Don't even get me started
Shaz - Purely speculation at the moment. Has shown nothing to excite at AFL to date. Again just potential
Sidebottom - Good player
Elliott - Gun
Pendles - One of the best I have ever seen, but his is moving into his late 20's and we know at Collingwood that means put the screen up and shoot him.

Then there are the generic issues, lack of speed, lack of skill, poor decision making and lack of footy smarts.

I really don't think the list is that good at all.

 

[mike123]

Nice try, Trent Croad last played in 2008.

He was on their list after that and doesn't contradict my point but nice try.


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[Carringbush2010]

As Collingwood supporters we have mastered the art of romanticising and remodelling history to suit ourselves.
Has anyone really done an in depth review of the 2011 list and looked at how those that departed have performed in the subsequent years ?
I just think of the rapid decline of Dawes, Jolly, Ball, Toovey, Caff, Nathan Brown, Thomas and H. There are others that have departed and gone ok but other than Heater and, to an injury riddled extent, Beams who has improved ?
We keep talking of a list that was primed for greatness maybe our zenith of that list was 10/11 and it was always going to decline. Decisions since should be questioned but lets not pretend we had the list of a Hawthorn like dynasty.

People still speculating that the list was cooked immediately after 2011. lol. On the bolded could you please explain why anyone would not hold confidence in a team that went 20 - 2 with a 167 %age; highest ever recorded?

Yeah nah you're right we were just going to fall off the earth after a gf appearance

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

I do however find it interesting that those who hold these negative opinions rely heavily on the "regression" and "best young list" type arguments as the basis of their entire case, demand those with alternate views to prove their case, then totally ignore or dismiss those arguments purely because they don't accord with their views. I'm yet to see anyone on that side of the argument actually produce any decent analysis to support them, just the same tired "regression" and "best young list" over and over while at the same time I have seen those on the positive side of the argument produce well written, considered, factually based assessments and analysis. Strange really.

This is kind of where my previous post was alluding to.

We need to completely strip it back and concentrate on analyse the main function of Bucks job which is coaching.

If we can satisfy ourselves that Buckley can coach this team, he actually has a viable game plan which is tailored to the players strength. Then the stuff about player injuries, list management decisions isn't as important because we know we have a good coach that can adapt to these situations.

No example better than Hawthorn. We can see this season that after a horror start, injuries and the recruitment of Ty Vickery, Al Clarkson is slowly turning around the form of Hawthorn whereby they are finishing the season strong. That is the value of having an very good coach. You never hear him making excuses that we are too young. We are missing Mitchell and Lewis etc etc.

 

[jackcass]

He was on their list after that and doesn't contradict my point but nice try.


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I agree, you made a nice try but if you're going to throw up flippant responses you need to at least be accurate. Croad never recovered from the GF injury and retired after not playing a game in 2009 so he's a long way shy of your 2012 unless you're suggesting that 3 years is an acceptable margin of error. I haven't even checked any of the names thrown up, they may all be wrong based on this rather obvious mistake.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think Nathan's biggest crime was taking on the job in the first place.

Agreed

Naturally, when you take on a job in which a team has come off a Premiership and a Grand Final loss, the only way is down.

Maybe we shouldn't have given him the job