The 2019 Jub Jub Memorial Supercars thread

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k31th

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I watch everything to do with the coverage of V8s and their supports... just not live most of the time these days because it's better to save time watching it at a faster speed (for me, specifically).

quality first lap of the race today
 
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k31th

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very high quality race today; thoroughly enjoyed it. :) good job by SVG to get anywhere near the front.
 

imadodgyumpire

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It's a surprise to have a new guest to the motor board. Everyone, let's make The Speaker feel welcome.

Idk how interested he is in racing, but he makes a pertinent point. Supercars is not relevant, and really hasn't been for 15-20 years. Larko, Crompo, Skaifey and all the other v8 cheerleaders don't get that. It's ****** domestic motorsport in Australia.

edit: The Speaker's point affirms my view that supercars, while parading as the premier class of Aus motorsport, is heading further and further down the path of being a "speedway on tarmac" scene.

edit: When I say "speedway on tarmac", I mean a nice little industry/community/series that has a loyal following, but the rest of the country is unlikely to care about.
 
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Mar 5, 2011
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My interest in the series almost directly correlates with its wider relevance to Australians. Loved it 15 years ago, and while I think in pure racing terms its still the king of touring car championships, it has lost its lustre. The appeal of touring cars comes from their similarity to cars on the road, but unfortunately the most popular cars on the road these days are hatchbacks (which aren't exactly visually appealing for racing). We also no longer make our own cars, which is probably more important than we think to how interested people will be in the sport.
 
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I would say, though, that it's not as though this is the only motorsport series facing irrelevance. In fact, beyond F1 (and NASCAR, which is propped up by a manufacturing sector that is itself propped up and is much to blame for the demise of our own) it's looking fairly grim, and half the times it seems people only want to talk about how boring that series is.

The more expensive its become to race in motorsport (especially as cars have shifted into being predominantly hatches and SUVs), the more reliant every series (that isn't super niche) has become on manufacturers, which in turns make them more susceptible to changes in the industry. It's a vicious cycle, whose biggest victim has been the World Rally Championship - 20 years ago they had nine manufacturers and a big place in world motorsport. These days?
 

imadodgyumpire

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Now look here, you. Just because you're a mod on the cricket board and a former Prime Minister of Australia, doesn't mean you can come in here and take a s**t on "hatchback" racing.

Motoring has moved on form the 80s. Believe it or not, a 2 litre motor is considered a large capacity nowadays. Whereas previously it was a distinctly smaller engine. 3litres is possibly considered excessive for general motoring now.

With your generalisation of "hatchbacks", a mere emasculation and attempt at denigration of a legitimate car, doesn't recognise that 2litre cars are actually quite big in size. Have you seen the lasted model Honda Civic, like the ones that race in TCR? That's not a hatchback, that's a station wagon.

Got anything more to say?
 

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I don't have a problem with the legitimacy of them as cars. It is patently obvious that the era of the sedan is mostly over. But you go ask any casual racing fan on the streets which of the two they'd rather watch in a touring car championship. They are visually unappealing compared to the sedans (apart from the Audi RS and arguably the Impreza, depending on which angle you look at it from) in a sport which relies greatly on visual appeal to draw people in beyond, as you mentioned earlier, the niche car enthusiast.

If there's an answer to the dilemma, I don't know what it is. TCR fits the reality of modern cars far more than Supercars does, but Supercars is better to watch. How do you combine those to get a new, popular ATCC?

(PS I don't mod the cricket board)
 

imadodgyumpire

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(PS I don't mod the cricket board)
No. But you post so frequently there, that you have the presence of a mod to me. Obviously I wasn't paying attention.

...but Supercars is better to watch
I would put it to you that this is overstated?

There are numerous points of your posts I can respond to, but it was make a particularly long post. I'll keep it at this for now.
How do you combine those to get a new, popular ATCC?
My answer is that you don't.

Whether anybody wants tot acknowledge it, but race car regs do have a certain expiry date. This certainly includes 5ltr V8s, whose "best before" date was 20 years ago.
 

k31th

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I meant your opinion on the fine itself, but I can guess based on what you just said :) ... I think it's ridiculous BS.
 

BomberFan355

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Idk how interested he is in racing, but he makes a pertinent point. Supercars is not relevant, and really hasn't been for 15-20 years. Larko, Crompo, Skaifey and all the other v8 cheerleaders don't get that. It's ****** domestic motorsport in Australia.
The crowds are what make it relevant. I like that you're happy to bag it out on here but jump down anyone's throat's should they say a bad word about TCR on the TCR thread.
 

imadodgyumpire

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The crowds are what make it relevant.
Nope. What They Speaker said here is what makes it relevant.

The appeal of touring cars comes from their similarity to cars on the road...We also no longer make our own cars, which is probably more important than we think to how interested people will be in the sport.
 

imadodgyumpire

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I like that you're happy to bag it out on here but jump down anyone's throat's should they say a bad word about TCR on the TCR thread.
Damn ******* right. With people who s**t on 2litre/TCR cars, there's a nasty undertone. It's just regular car racing, but people on all forums elsewhere make out like it's a queer form of racing.

5ltr V8s were ok to begin with back in 93. But for a long time now they've just an overrated lump of s**t, and a less and less irrelevant. Saying you want to watch 5tlr V8 supercars is like saying you want to watch horse and carriage racing.

Had there been a genuine 2ltr class for the past 20 years, motorsport in Aus would be better off. It's have made any transition easier away from 5ltr V8s easier, and it would've been easier to create a settled structure of national level motorsport for prospective competiiors.

But this focus on being a "business" and "putting on a show" and s**tting on smaller cars (Us vs them mentality), just fu**s up a more prosperous motorsport scene in Aus.
 
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Even the crowds are dropping though
Yep, and they're dropping because they're losing their relevance, which came from them being cars we see on the road and which we manufacture in Australia.

Once Ford and GMH announced they were leaving, it was over. Toyota could've been the saviour if they'd allowed them in with modified rules (ala Nissan, Mercedes, Volvo), but they were never going to stay on their own.

No. But you post so frequently there, that you have the presence of a mod to me. Obviously I wasn't paying attention.
Don't worry, I'll take it as a compliment. :cool:

I would put it to you that this is overstated?

There are numerous points of your posts I can respond to, but it was make a particularly long post. I'll keep it at this for now.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm a big believer in absolute truth, and by extension the application of it to beauty and aesthetics, and I believe that when it comes to motor racing, this is one of those truths.

My answer is that you don't.

Whether anybody wants tot acknowledge it, but race car regs do have a certain expiry date. This certainly includes 5ltr V8s, whose "best before" date was 20 years ago.
Technically they never have an expiry date as long as people want to build and race to those regs.

This is more about whether large, popular series have an expiry date for their regs that they can change, or whether a series has to start from scratch according to the conditions in the motoring world.

Damn ******* right. With people who s**t on 2litre/TCR cars, there's a nasty undertone. It's just regular car racing, but people on all forums elsewhere make out like it's a queer form of racing.

5ltr V8s were ok to begin with back in 93. But for a long time now they've just an overrated lump of s**t, and a less and less irrelevant. Saying you want to watch 5tlr V8 supercars is like saying you want to watch horse and carriage racing.

Had there been a genuine 2ltr class for the past 20 years, motorsport in Aus would be better off. It's have made any transition easier away from 5ltr V8s easier, and it would've been easier to create a settled structure of national level motorsport for prospective competiiors.

But this focus on being a "business" and "putting on a show" and s**tting on smaller cars (Us vs them mentality), just fu**s up a more prosperous motorsport scene in Aus.
Realistically, how was that going to happen? CAMS couldn't just say "we aren't going to have a category for the most popular cars in the country because we want everyone to watch the Super Tourers, which are the future." You could maybe argue that they should've opened up the category to get the Camry/Avalon/Aurion and Magna/380 in there by any means necessary, but that doesn't really solve the problem in the long run. As long as Australia was manufacturing these cars, they were going to be the ones in the most popular series.

I really do miss Australian car manufacturing.
 

BomberFan355

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Damn ******* right. With people who s**t on 2litre/TCR cars, there's a nasty undertone. It's just regular car racing, but people on all forums elsewhere make out like it's a queer form of racing.

5ltr V8s were ok to begin with back in 93. But for a long time now they've just an overrated lump of s**t, and a less and less irrelevant. Saying you want to watch 5tlr V8 supercars is like saying you want to watch horse and carriage racing.

Had there been a genuine 2ltr class for the past 20 years, motorsport in Aus would be better off. It's have made any transition easier away from 5ltr V8s easier, and it would've been easier to create a settled structure of national level motorsport for prospective competiiors.

But this focus on being a "business" and "putting on a show" and s**tting on smaller cars (Us vs them mentality), just fu**s up a more prosperous motorsport scene in Aus.
That's a nasty chip on your shoulder.
 

imadodgyumpire

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That's a nasty chip on your shoulder.
Damn right. It should be a chip on your shoulder as well. This "power" supercars wields is BS. The attachment to a 5ltr V8 is BS. It completely distorts the attitude amongst competitors and fans.

Because supercars has such a narrow focus on it's operation, it creates BS problems you can't get out of. After ignoring other makes/models for years and years, look how half baked the MB/Nissan/Volvos were when they were included in the series when the stakeholders wanted them. It's pathetic.
 

imadodgyumpire

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Technically they never have an expiry date as long as people want to build and race to those regs.

This is more about whether large, popular series have an expiry date for their regs that they can change, or whether a series has to start from scratch according to the conditions in the motoring world.
For lower/amateur level classes, that's fine. The regs can go on forever. Formula Ford is an example of this.

But for the professional, designated top classes, there has to be a certain maintenance, rolling change of regs.



Realistically, how was that going to happen? CAMS couldn't just say "we aren't going to have a category for the most popular cars in the country because we want everyone to watch the Super Tourers, which are the future." You could maybe argue that they should've opened up the category to get the Camry/Avalon/Aurion and Magna/380 in there by any means necessary, but that doesn't really solve the problem in the long run. As long as Australia was manufacturing these cars, they were going to be the ones in the most popular series.
In hindsight, the sequence should been like this from 1993.

5tlr rwd V8 - 3.6-4ltr rwd V6 "supercars" - 3.6-4ltr "super touring" - 2ltr in whatever guise.
 

BomberFan355

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Damn right. It should be a chip on your shoulder as well. This "power" supercars wields is BS. The attachment to a 5ltr V8 is BS. It completely distorts the attitude amongst competitors and fans.
I far from agree on all Supercars do. For 30 years you could pay at the gate at Sandown and sit where ever you like, now you have to pay extra to sit in the Grandstand. Time certain finishes when it's mostly not on FTA and there's no news program to worry about. Basic stuff but annoying as just a 'fan'. People in this country just like V8's, just how it is currently. Supercars allowed another engines like the TTV6 but Holden/RBR/whoever, decided not to go with it.

I'm not a fan of TCR but i still watch it just to see how's its going.
 

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