The 50 Greatest 20 years on. Who's in? Who's out?

[fidstar]

Huh??? What are you on about?

Detroit were a well rounded team but their clear leader and superstar was Isiah Thomas.

He was there best player, but the Detroit dynamic was different to pretty much every championship team in the last 35 years, other than.... well, Detroit in the early 2000s. Maybe you can throw the recent Spurs team in there.

The dude didn't even make an all NBA team in 88 to 91 (Stockton actually was named in each of those seasons fwiw). Detroit's best years. He didn't even win both finals MVPs. Dumars was actually named All NBA third team in 1990, so he wasn't even seen as the best guard on his own team that year.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic, just pointing out that your use of the word "far" is ludicrous. You criminally underrate just how good a player John Stockton is.

 

[krisholio14]

And Bill Walton shouldn't be on the list (and certainly not as a lock).

The guy revolutionized the center position. His peak was short due to injuries, but the three years he was at the top of his game, were three of the best years ever at the position.

The fact he was able to come back and win a title and a 6th man award with busted feet add to his credentials too.

 

[fidstar]

Ewing's Knicks were a huge chance every year from about 1990 to around 1995 but kept running into MJ.

90 and 91 they won 40 to 45 games - Hardly a "huge chance"

92 they actually weren't that good a team - 51 wins - Good for 4th best record in the East. They then scraped through the first round needing a deciding game to get there. What they are remembered for most that season is playing a great series against the Bulls. Credit where it is due, they played great. No guarantee that they could have beaten either the Cavs or Blazers though. Both teams winning 6 more games during the regular season.

93 was the one season I think they were true Championship contenders while MJ was playing.

94-95 - No MJ

96 - They finished as the 5th seed in the East. Not really championship territory.

 

[fidstar]

As for AD, just a talking point. Shaq was in after 4 seasons in the NBA in 96. Davis of course will end up top 50 as he is quite ridic.

I think everyone agrees Shaq's inclusion was a joke.

Subjective? Proof? Zo was a solid 20/10 guy. Great defender. We'd seen so many of his ilk before. He was really the last of those great C's to come through. Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning. All very good defenders, all 20/10 guys.

You do realize that you have just compared Zo to a list of players you have in as locks...

 

[jod23]

I think everyone agrees Shaq's inclusion was a joke.



You do realize that you have just compared Zo to a list of players you have in as locks...

Yeah but Zo is at the bottom of the pile for those big guys.

 

[fidstar]

The guy revolutionized the center position. His peak was short due to injuries, but the three years he was at the top of his game, were three of the best years ever at the position.

The fact he was able to come back and win a title and a 6th man award with busted feet add to his credentials too.

Never said he wasn't a great player, but you have to do it for more than 3 seasons to make a "GOAT" list. I have only seen highlights, so I'm happy for others to think differently. But his peak 3 seasons (I assume that was his 2nd to 4th season), he averaged 18 points and 13.5 boards. In those 3 seasons he still missed almost a third of the time due to injury. I don't think they will rate up there with the "best years ever at the position".

He is, more than pretty much anyone, a "what if" player?

 

[krisholio14]

Never said he wasn't a great player, but you have to do it for more than 3 seasons to make a "GOAT" list. I have only seen highlights, so I'm happy for others to think differently. But his peak 3 seasons (I assume that was his 2nd to 4th season), he averaged 18 points and 13.5 boards. In those 3 seasons he still missed almost a third of the time due to injury. I don't think they will rate up there with the "best years ever at the position".

He is, more than pretty much anyone, a "what if" player?

If you look you can find complete games from some of the Blazers playoff runs in his best years.

It wasn't just scoring and rebounding, the guy was an elite passer and a beast defender.

As some pundits from the time said, he was the first guy you could set up your offense AND defense around.

 

[jod23]

He was there best player, but the Detroit dynamic was different to pretty much every championship team in the last 35 years, other than.... well, Detroit in the early 2000s. Maybe you can throw the recent Spurs team in there.

The dude didn't even make an all NBA team in 88 to 91 (Stockton actually was named in each of those seasons fwiw). Detroit's best years. He didn't even win both finals MVPs. Dumars was actually named All NBA third team in 1990, so he wasn't even seen as the best guard on his own team that year.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic, just pointing out that your use of the word "far" is ludicrous. You criminally underrate just how good a player John Stockton is.

In his two championship years, Jordan and Magic are the two guards in the All NBA 1st team. And rightly so. But how Isiah doesnt make the all NBA second team or third team was pretty ridiculous. I think by that stage Isiah was pretty much hated. There was that whole racist Larry Bird thing that blew up. There was the "Bad Boys" image and that he was the leader of it all. It hurt his reputation and I think may have hurt his chances in such awards like All NBA teams and such. I mean look at the numbers.

In 88/89, KJ and Stockton were named to the 2nd team and deservedly as both had monster years that year. But Mark Price was named All NBA 3rd team with 18.9ppg, 8.4apg, 3.0rpg and 1.5apg. Isiah averaged 18.2ppg, 8.3apg, 3.4rpg, 1.7spg. Very similar numbers but his bad reputation perhaps gets him overlooked. Dale Ellis got the other spot and whilst a big scorer, he wasnt much else.

In 89/90 it was against Stockton and KJ as All NBA 2nd team. KJ was averaging 22 and 11. Stockton 17 and 14. Not sure how Dumars got the nod over Isiah who was leading him in every statistical category that season. Drexler was the other guy in the 3rd team.

For the record Isiah was putting up 18.4ppg, 9.4apg, 3.8rpg, 1.7spg.

Even if he was overlooked in those All NBA teams in the championship years, the Pistons were still very good from the early 80's right on through and he was 3 x All NBA 1st team member. Stockton managed it twice, funnily enough in the two years Jordan retired and a spot opened up.

As for not winning both Finals MVP's. You say it like... he didnt even win both. Like it's easy to be the best player over a 7 game series where the two best teams in the league are playing. Dumars was also an outstanding player and averaged 27 and 6 in 1989. It's not like Isiah was s**t. He was Detroit's second best player that series as they swept the Lakers.

The next year, Isiah averaged 27.6ppg, 7.0apg and 5.2rpg to win the Finals MVP.

Anyways, to suggest Isiah wasnt the leader, the superstar and the best player on that Pistons team is crazy. The Pistons were a good team, they had plenty of contributors but everything ran through Isiah and the Pistons went as far as Isiah took them.

Isiah did all that with probably Joe Dumars as his next best player. Role player filled the rest. Laimbeer, Mahorn, Johnson, Rodman, Aguirre, Edwards, Salley. But he climbed the mountain, not once, but twice. Yet you think Stockton was better? No chance.

 

[jod23]

Then there is this. Stuff Stockton just couldnt do.

 

[fidstar]

Anyways, to suggest Isiah wasnt the leader, the superstar and the best player on that Pistons team is crazy.

Never suggested otherwise. I think I even wrote that somewhere along the line. I was just saying that it wasn't a Michael Jordan/Bulls, LeBron/Cavs etc situation over in Detroit. To say otherwise is just wrong.

But he climbed the mountain, not once, but twice. Yet you think Stockton was better? No chance.

The argument we were having was you saying Thomas was "far" better than Stockton. Try and keep up

 

[krisholio14]

In his two championship years, Jordan and Magic are the two guards in the All NBA 1st team. And rightly so. But how Isiah doesnt make the all NBA second team or third team was pretty ridiculous. I think by that stage Isiah was pretty much hated. There was that whole racist Larry Bird thing that blew up. There was the "Bad Boys" image and that he was the leader of it all. It hurt his reputation and I think may have hurt his chances in such awards like All NBA teams and such. I mean look at the numbers.

In 88/89, KJ and Stockton were named to the 2nd team and deservedly as both had monster years that year. But Mark Price was named All NBA 3rd team with 18.9ppg, 8.4apg, 3.0rpg and 1.5apg. Isiah averaged 18.2ppg, 8.3apg, 3.4rpg, 1.7spg. Very similar numbers but his bad reputation perhaps gets him overlooked. Dale Ellis got the other spot and whilst a big scorer, he wasnt much else.

In 89/90 it was against Stockton and KJ as All NBA 2nd team. KJ was averaging 22 and 11. Stockton 17 and 14. Not sure how Dumars got the nod over Isiah who was leading him in every statistical category that season. Drexler was the other guy in the 3rd team.

For the record Isiah was putting up 18.4ppg, 9.4apg, 3.8rpg, 1.7spg.

Even if he was overlooked in those All NBA teams in the championship years, the Pistons were still very good from the early 80's right on through and he was 3 x All NBA 1st team member. Stockton managed it twice, funnily enough in the two years Jordan retired and a spot opened up.

As for not winning both Finals MVP's. You say it like... he didnt even win both. Like it's easy to be the best player over a 7 game series where the two best teams in the league are playing. Dumars was also an outstanding player and averaged 27 and 6 in 1989. It's not like Isiah was s**t. He was Detroit's second best player that series as they swept the Lakers.

The next year, Isiah averaged 27.6ppg, 7.0apg and 5.2rpg to win the Finals MVP.

Anyways, to suggest Isiah wasnt the leader, the superstar and the best player on that Pistons team is crazy. The Pistons were a good team, they had plenty of contributors but everything ran through Isiah and the Pistons went as far as Isiah took them.

Isiah did all that with probably Joe Dumars as his next best player. Role player filled the rest. Laimbeer, Mahorn, Johnson, Rodman, Aguirre, Edwards, Salley. But he climbed the mountain, not once, but twice. Yet you think Stockton was better? No chance.

As a Pistons fan from before the back to back days, I have to say that I don't think people who weren't around to see it realize exactly how much of his own scoring Isiah sacrificed to bring his teammates into the game.

 

[calyam]

Can't believe there has been a lengthy debate about Stockton versus Thomas.

Stockton is 5th all time in Win Shares; Thomas is 138th. Stockton averages almost twice as many Win Shares per 48 minutes.

I know that some posters are allergic to advanced statistics but this isn't a debate that any basketball fan should have. Stockton was objectively superior across his career and it isn't simply a product of longevity. With such a massive discrepancy between output and efficiency, Thomas' two championships are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[fidstar]

Thomas's championships are definitely not irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

I agree had Penny Hardaway not been stricken by injuries, he was projecting for top 50 all time.

 

[jod23]

Can't believe there has been a lengthy debate about Stockton versus Thomas.

Stockton is 5th all time in Win Shares; Thomas is 138th. Stockton averages almost twice as many Win Shares per 48 minutes.

I know that some posters are allergic to advanced statistics but this isn't a debate that any basketball fan should have. Stockton was objectively superior across his career and it isn't simply a product of longevity. With such a massive discrepancy between output and efficiency, Thomas' two championships are irrelevant to the discussion.

I find it hilarious that you put Win Shares over you know... winning. Isiah climbed the mountain twice. I think he will happily keep his two championship rings over Stockton being 5th all time for Win Shares haha.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

Stockton's candidacy is questionable IMO because he wasnt a scorer. I threw Nash's name out there
As for Stockton being the all time leader in assists and steals, while true, that points to his longevity more than anything. Magic dished out more per game. He is 7th all time for steals per game too. Not that they are anything to be sneezed at though.

Magic Johnson averaged more assists per game. Magic Johnson is also a consensus top-10 player of all time ...

And it's not just longevity - it's pretty long odds that anyone will ever break his assists record. It's as safe as Tony Lockett's goals record.

IMO Stockton is borderline to remain top 50 if it was re-done today. Are you saying you would take Stockton over Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, LeBron, Wade?

False dichotomy, I said no such thing. You've listed five players who must come in, not twenty-five!

Lenny Wilkins, Nate Archibald, Dave Bing, Hal Greer, Bill Sharman - there's five guards who would drop out before Stockton. Face it he's not borderline, he's in.

Anyways, im just arguing that one shot. Im not saying that Stockton wasnt clutch or that he wasnt a good shooter or that you wouldnt have the ball in his hands with time ticking down. Of course you would, he was their PG and an excellent decision maker. It only becomes a problem if say a great defender is guarding you. Blanketing you. Then Stockton doesnt have that ability to get his own shot. That's what I was saying.

You're back-pedaling at a rate of knots

Again the series in 94 was ridiculously close, could have gone either way, unlucky for Ewing, it didnt fall his way. Starks hits that three in Game 6 and his career is a whole lot different. Mourning may have gotten knocked out by MJ in those years but even if Jordan wasnt around, Mourning's team was never going to go on and win a championship. Ewing's Knicks were a huge chance every year from about 1990 to around 1995 but kept running into MJ.

Ewing's team was a big chance in 1993 and '94. That's it. In '92 they won 51 games, in '95 they got knocked out by the Pacers. Remember this?

Maybe but as you said Hardaway was pretty much done by then. Even if Miami do make the Finals, it would have just been roadkill against Shaq and the Lakers.

They re-loaded with Eddie Jones, Mason and Brian Grant that off-season. They'd have put up a better show than Philly, me thinks.

Subjective? Proof? Zo was a solid 20/10 guy. Great defender. We'd seen so many of his ilk before. He was really the last of those great C's to come through. Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning. All very good defenders, all 20/10 guys. Name another guy though that was doing the kinda stuff Grant Hill was?

You cant. Because nobody was. He was LeBron before LeBron. As I posted earlier he was putting up numbers that put him in conversations with Jordan, LeBron, Baylor, Wilt, Bird. Hill was on track to be an all time great. Absolute lock not just for top 50 but top 20 or top 10.

He was all-NBA first team once and finished top-3 in the MVP race once. He was a brilliant player, but you're engaging in hyperbole here.

As for another player capable of putting up such numbers, Detlef Schrempf did it in '93.

On reflection. Walton is certainly not a lock. I stand by Cowens and Reed though. Mourning was great and had he not had the kidney problems, he would definitely be in the conversation. But he never got those championships and MVP's and Finals MVP's that guys like Cowens and Reed did get.

He did get a championship though. And he finished 2nd, then 3rd in MVP voting, winning Defensive Player of the Year each time.

So you like fidstar also believe Stockton to be greater than Zeke?? Yikes. What is the world coming to??

False dichotomy, again!

I said no such thing - you claimed that Thomas was 'far superior' to Stockton, I said that was hyperbole. Yikes indeed.

And fidstar is right - Detroit's championship winning teams were just that, won on the back of a nine-man rotation and phenomenal D. Thomas averaged 18 points and 8 assists, with a PER of 17 and a dubious assist/turnover ratio. Was he the straw that stirred the drink? Yes, undoubtedly.

But he was not a one-man tour de force in the way that Olajuwon was for the Rockets in 1994. That's the standard for a superstar driven championship.

 

[calyam]

I find it hilarious that you put Win Shares over you know... winning. Isiah climbed the mountain twice. I think he will happily keep his two championship rings over Stockton being 5th all time for Win Shares haha.

Championships are a team achievement and should be treated as such. Thomas was an important part of the Bad Boy's success but he led the Pistons in WS on just one occasion in his entire career. He was a more gifted athlete than Stockton - of that there is no argument - but Stockton is objectively a better basketball player.

During Stockton's career the Jazz won 63.3 per cent of their games; by comparison, during Thomas career the Pistons won 56.6 per cent of their games. Yes they won two titles but that was built on a defensive formation that Thomas had little influence on. Unfortunately, advanced statistics reveal Thomas for what he was: a remarkably talented but also highly inefficient point guard. He was better than most but he isn't better than Stockton and he certainly isn't a top 5 point guard all-time.

I am sure that Thomas is more than satisfied with his career but his two championship rings do not now nor have they ever elevated him over other superior players who didn't manage to win one. By your logic, Thomas is superior to the likes of Barkley and Malone. Hell you probably think he's better than Chris Paul.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Stockton is definitely a lock. One of the most underrated basketballers of all time. Cousy is one of the most overrated to me. Not saying he wasn't a great player, but he is rated highly mainly because he won, which made him look better than he was. He never had one season where he shot 40% from the field.

You're applying the statistical standards of the 80s/90s/today to Cousy, instead of comparing him to his contemporaries, which is unfair to him. In Cousy's first season of leading the league in assists, the league average FG% was 37.0. In his last season that he led the league in assists, it was 41.0 (and people wonder why the big men around that era put up such ridiculous rebounding numbers). In comparison, the league average FG% in Stockton's first and last seasons leading the league in assists was 49.0/48.6. His FG%, for the era, was quite respectable and he was regularly top five in the league in scoring, something that Stockton was never asked to do.

Cousy is rated highly because he was clearly the #1 point guard of his era, no one else even comes close. I can't think of a year in Stockton's career when he would have been considered to be unequivocally the best point guard in the game. And, of course, Stockton had a much tougher era, as far as contemporaries go (Magic, Isiah, K.Johnson, T.Hardaway, A.Hardaway, Price, Payton and Kidd, among others), but for Cousy to stand so far above any of his peers for that era, it has to mean something.

Bernard King was also one of the biggest snubs when the original team came out and his case should be revisited (Dantley as well). I don't think Jerry Lucas should be a lock. I'd take Wilkins, King or McAdoo clearly ahead of him. Walton's a tough one. If you go by career trajectory "If he didn't get injured" he'd waltz into the top 50. But, by that logic, so would Penny Hardaway and Tracy McGrady. Walton was absolutely the best player in the league for a while and led his team to the championship, so it's a unique case. All up, I don't have a problem with him in, because he won a championship as the best player in the league (and a lot of the locks can't say that). I think Drexler is an interesting one, as well. Granted, he was a shooting guard and they were small forwards, but was he any better than the likes of Wilkins and King?

Of the players that have emerged since the original 50 was announced (or whose resumes weren't quite good enough at the time), I'd say Kobe, LeBron, Payton, Iverson, Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki, Wade, Nash, Allen, Pierce, Durant and Paul have done enough to push others out of the list. I think the likes of Mourning, Carter and Webber (and McGrady, for that matter) sit more comfortably in a top 100, rather than top 50.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

He was there best player, but the Detroit dynamic was different to pretty much every championship team in the last 35 years, other than.... well, Detroit in the early 2000s. Maybe you can throw the recent Spurs team in there.

The dude didn't even make an all NBA team in 88 to 91 (Stockton actually was named in each of those seasons fwiw). Detroit's best years. He didn't even win both finals MVPs. Dumars was actually named All NBA third team in 1990, so he wasn't even seen as the best guard on his own team that year.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic, just pointing out that your use of the word "far" is ludicrous. You criminally underrate just how good a player John Stockton is.

That's just shocking to me, in retrospect. Back in those days, when I was just getting old enough to watch the NBA, Isiah was clearly one of the biggest four names/stars in the game (next to Jordan, Bird and Magic). I will say that if those seasons happened again today, Thomas would be second team, at the very least.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I also wonder if Rodman is dismissed too easily from these discussions, given how hard it is to compare his contributions to other star player. He seemed to be blacklisted from the all star game (never made one after Detroit), for reasons that are unclear.

 

[fidstar]

I also wonder if Rodman is dismissed too easily from these discussions, given how hard it is to compare his contributions to other star player. He seemed to be blacklisted from the all star game (never made one after Detroit), for reasons that are unclear.

I love Rodman, but he's not on this list. I don't remember him being better than the 3rd best player on any of the teams he ever played.

 

[fidstar]

That's just shocking to me, in retrospect. Back in those days, when I was just getting old enough to watch the NBA, Isiah was clearly one of the biggest four names/stars in the game (next to Jordan, Bird and Magic). I will say that if those seasons happened again today, Thomas would be second team, at the very least.

You have written "at the very least", but being that Jordan and Magic were around 2nd team was the best Isiah could have expected in those seasons.

I don't really remember Isiah being number 4 at the time. There was definitely the big 3 in Michael, Magic and Bird. But after that there was a dozen or so players. His legacy (rightfully so) was improved because he won championships.

Isiah obviously excelled in the playoffs, but excluding them (which All-NBA teams do), it's not unreasonable to see why he wasn't in them:

e.g. 88/89 - Points/Assists/Rebounds/Steals (FG%/3P%/FT%)
Isiah - 18/8/3/3/1.7 (46/27/82)

Stockton - 17/13.5/3/3.2 (50/40/80)
KJ - 20.5/12/4/1.7 (50/9/88)
Ellis - 27.5/2/4/1.3
Price - 20/9/3 (50/40/90)

While I known these are just stats, it's pretty hard to argue that those 4 guys didn't have better seasons than Isiah.

 

[jod23]

Championships are a team achievement and should be treated as such. Thomas was an important part of the Bad Boy's success but he led the Pistons in WS on just one occasion in his entire career. He was a more gifted athlete than Stockton - of that there is no argument - but Stockton is objectively a better basketball player.

During Stockton's career the Jazz won 63.3 per cent of their games; by comparison, during Thomas career the Pistons won 56.6 per cent of their games. Yes they won two titles but that was built on a defensive formation that Thomas had little influence on. Unfortunately, advanced statistics reveal Thomas for what he was: a remarkably talented but also highly inefficient point guard. He was better than most but he isn't better than Stockton and he certainly isn't a top 5 point guard all-time.

I am sure that Thomas is more than satisfied with his career but his two championship rings do not now nor have they ever elevated him over other superior players who didn't manage to win one. By your logic, Thomas is superior to the likes of Barkley and Malone. Hell you probably think he's better than Chris Paul.

He's miles better than Chris Paul. Basketball isnt just about numbers and stats. A lot of it is in the head and in the heart. Isiah had that in spades. CP3 is a mental midget. You'd never back CP3 over Isiah Thomas in a 7 game series.

Anyways, this argument can go back and forth. The bottom line is that Isiah was the star player on a team that won back to back championships right in the middle of Magic/Bird/Jordan. That right there is ridiculous.

You can say it was team defence and team basketball but how far do the Pistons get without Isiah? They get nowhere near the title.

Not sure why Isiah never get's his due. Stockton won nothing. Chris Paul has won nothing. Isiah, for me, is the 2nd best PG of all time.

 

[jod23]

I love Rodman, but he's not on this list. I don't remember him being better than the 3rd best player on any of the teams he ever played.

Why isnt he though? Rodman for me is a real interesting one.

He was never the best player on any team so how can he be in the top 50 of all time? But without being the best player, he was often the most important. His ability to rebound the basketball was freakish. Only 9 players in the history of the game have higher rebounding per game averages.

Al the nine players in front of him were from a by gone era when rebounding numbers were much larger. Baylor, Cowens, Bellamy, Unseld, Thurmond, Lucas, Pettit, Russell and Chamberlain all played in the 50's through to the 70's. With just Cowens and Unseld barely making it into the early 80's.

Rodman too was just 6'7. At that height, he led the league in rebounding 7 times. Was an All Defensive 1st team selection 7 times, and is a two time Defensive Player of the Year.

Wrap all that around 5 NBA championships.

At what point do you select someone when they corner the market on one particular skill. Rodman is the GOAT of rebounding. Also an elite defender. All time great defender really. Mentally tough, tons of heart. The only thing he lacked was any real offensive game. He was key player in five championship rings.

For me. He's in.

 

[fidstar]

Why isnt he though? Rodman for me is a real interesting one.

He was never the best player on any team so how can he be in the top 50 of all time? But without being the best player, he was often the most important. His ability to rebound the basketball was freakish. Only 9 players in the history of the game have higher rebounding per game averages.

Al the nine players in front of him were from a by gone era when rebounding numbers were much larger. Baylor, Cowens, Bellamy, Unseld, Thurmond, Lucas, Pettit, Russell and Chamberlain all played in the 50's through to the 70's. With just Cowens and Unseld barely making it into the early 80's.

Rodman too was just 6'7. At that height, he led the league in rebounding 7 times. Was an All Defensive 1st team selection 7 times, and is a two time Defensive Player of the Year.

Wrap all that around 5 NBA championships.

At what point do you select someone when they corner the market on one particular skill. Rodman is the GOAT of rebounding. Also an elite defender. All time great defender really. Mentally tough, tons of heart. The only thing he lacked was any real offensive game. He was key player in five championship rings.

For me. He's in.

Great player, and a very important player for his championship teams no doubt. But he'd probably just sneak in a Top 100 team of all time.

I also find it hilarious that you say Stockton isn't in because he can't score, but then say Rodman is in.