The A-League Expansion Thread

Do you support expansion

  • Yes, for the good of the league

    Votes: 55 83.3%
  • No, the league is fine the way it is

    Votes: 11 16.7%

  • Total voters
    66

Gentlemen

Norm Smith Medallist
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I've done Wellington away twice for the A-League and it is the best away trip in the league by a country mile. Underrated city with lots of great pubs, friendliest supporters, I had fans shout me drinks as well. As a fan who is currently very disillusioned with the way the A-League and my club Brisbane Roar is run, if the FFA boot Wellington (and don't bring back GCU so we can have an actual rival again) I would officially be done with the league.

The A-League should expand to 16 teams then back down to 14 once a second division is created, the next four teams should be (in no particular order)
Canberra, Gold Coast United's return, Wollongong and the South East Melbourne/Dandenong bid.

Once a second division is created the teams should be the two relegated A-League teams, a combined Brisbane Strikers/Brisbane City bid (Brisbane United) playing at Perry Park, Northern Fury if they can get the funds to go again, Tasmania and the best NPL teams to fill out the remaining spots
Northen Fury is dead, for good this time sadly.

Also I doubt Strikers/City would work together, nor should they be forced too.

I like the rest of the plan.
 

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nobbyiscool

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Once a second division is created the teams should be the two relegated A-League teams, a combined Brisbane Strikers/Brisbane City bid (Brisbane United) playing at Perry Park, Northern Fury if they can get the funds to go again, Tasmania and the best NPL teams to fill out the remaining spots
Rugby league fans just all simultaneously vomited in their mouths at the thought of forced joint ventures!

RIP "Gosford" Bears, we hardly knew thee...
 

nobbyiscool

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There's never going to be a second division. Australians don't do relegation. I would refuse to go to a Victory game if they were relegated.
And if we ever did for the sake of it (ie. for the sake of FIFA and AFC wanting us to) it'd be some half-baked insult to the whole idea where we throw charity A-League spots at 2-3 NPL teams and the worst one gets relegated every year for the winner of A-League 2 (which would be made up entirely of NPL teams.)
 

giggler99

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There's never going to be a second division. Australians don't do relegation. I would refuse to go to a Victory game if they were relegated.
If there where to be pro/rel in the future it wouldn’t be direct automatic one up one down etc.. some sort of playoff initially would be setup.

Also strict criteria would need to be followed for the second division club(s) in order to be promoted. I guess that would also go hand in hand on the criteria on which clubs would be allowed into a second division. Whether it be NPL clubs or new franchises.

I know it sounds scary the thought of your club being relegated. But part of the beauty of a period economy is the satisfaction of rebuilding and promoting your way back up! Better than being stuck lagging on the bottom. At least being relegated gives weaker clubs something to aspire too.

Anyway you can’t know what it would be like or if it would work unless it’s implemented. It all comes down to money, sponsorships and the wider community supporting the idea on how a second division can actually be viable and stable. that’s the sticking point if you can solve that part of the problem the FFA can start a second division up tomorrow.
 
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Bomberboyokay

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Relegation works in Europe as the countries have dozens of professional clubs (genuinely professional, not South Melbourne faux professional) so when someone goes down there really is someone to come up. Crucially no salary cap means the popular clubs people like don't go down.

Victory and Sydney FC relegated in consecutive seasons is all it will take to kill the A-League. The money isn't there and the public isn't conditioned to accept it.

US and Canada don't have relegation as like here they know it would be a disaster and people would simply watch other sports.
 
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giggler99

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Relegation works in Europe as the countries have dozens of professional clubs (genuinely professional, not South Melbourne faux professional) so when someone goes down there really is someone to come up. Crucially no salary cap means the popular clubs people like don't go down.

Victory and Sydney FC relegated in consecutive seasons is all it will take to kill the A-League. The money isn't there and the public isn't conditioned to accept it.

US and Canada don't have relegation as like here they know it would be a disaster and people would simply watch other sports.


See the problem your having is you are assuming that the Pro/rel system we adopted here if we do implement one will be the some as in Europe, it won’t be. Our environment and football landscape is different. There will still be salary caps, and recruiting restrictions, club won’t be given automatic promotion or relegation for that matter. Clubs who get accepted into a second division will loosely need to be professional on a scaled down salary cap. If they can’t make the jump to the criteria’s of the A-League standard they won’t be granted promotion. It’s hard to imagine but like I said you can’t know whether it will work or not unless you actually do it. And you can’t just assume it will be like in Europe because it won’t be.

You mentioned the U.S they are currently in the process of adopting Pro/rel could be up and running within 5 years. Would be a good case study to follow here if successful.
 

giggler99

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What's the point? People can already go watch these suburban teams. That's all they'll be.



Source?
What's the point? People can already go watch these suburban teams. That's all they'll be.



Source?
What do you mean what’s the point? Wouldn’t you get satisfaction for you local club moving up the pyramids ladder?


There are strong movements in the USA to adapt a Pro/Rel system.
Whether it happens remains to be seen but if it can work in the USA with their crowded sports market It can work here too.

https://the18.com/soccer-news/new-usl-structure-2019-promotion-relegation

https://sports.yahoo.com/promotion-relegation-debate-isnt-dying-heres-work-united-states-032724111.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/major-league-soccer-promotion-relegation-usa-mls-la-galaxy-close-shop-a8237506.html


http://prorelforusa.com/
 

Punt Road Feral

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I don’t see how pro/rel can work when we have stupid rules like salary caps and no transfer fees between clubs.
We’ve only just introduced loans between clubs and that was for Sydney to sign Da Silva.
All it would take for a side to get relegated is a couple of dud imports and an injury crisis and you could go down.
I’d much rather the league release the shackles holding the game back so the league can actually become the best it can be.
If it means stringent processes to ensure clubs remain financial then that is totally fine with me ie. if clubs don’t pay wages or super on time they are docked points or get blocked in transfer windows etc.

For pro/rel to work imo you need min 14 teams in the top tier, a stable established second tier (min up and running for 3 seasons with no pro rel to set themselves up) with criteria to help all sides strive to improve all aspects of the game.
We should follow the model our neighbours Japan set. They moderately grew over time and now have 3 tiers set up with strong academies and the pyramid is a strong backbone to a very respected football nation.
 

Punt Road Feral

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Also for the second tier in due course I’d be looking at the conference system for pro rel.
They have 1 automatic spot for the champions which is just reward for a team that performs the best in a home and away season.
They then have playoffs between 2-5 which is like a finals series. These fixtures would be the ones that get the public and broadcasters excited with the drama associated with two legged games.

In the top tier they can have the bottom side automatically relegated and then a relegation playoff. I believe they do this in Germany and Scotland which again adds to the drama of the season and ensures there are no dead rubber games in the bottom half of the table.
The loser of the relegation plays the winner of the second tier playoff for the prize of getting into the top tier.
This gives enough opportunity for all sides to go up if they are good enough.
And if by chance a WSW did go down, they could easily go straight back up if they do it right and also inject crowds and life into the second tier anyway.
 

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Bomberboyokay

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So when you said the US "are currently in the process of adopting Pro/rel", you were wrong.
 

giggler99

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So when you said the US "are currently in the process of adopting Pro/rel", you were wrong.
Yeah OK I was wrong in terms of it being adopted by USSoccer atm, but there are loud noises being made and heard.
The Pro/Rel Movement want to try and make FIFA force the agenda through I doubt that will happen. That means FIFA will have to adapt the system for every country which it shouldn't be forced to do.

I think it can work in the US they have enough professional clubs for an open system, culturally like here it will be hard to convince the sporting public, but like I've mentioned it also depends what type of system is implemented.

I don't understand why you are so against it, I know culturally it will be a shock and different in a professional environment for Australia but its not like pro/rel is a stranger to us the NPL leagues adopt it lots of semi-pro leagues in other sports adopt it too.

I'm not a big fan of it either but if the FFA can find the money and a way a second division can generate money via Implement a viable system than we should do definitely explore it. But if its just throwing a group of NPL clubs in a second league and hope pro/rel works than it won't work and it will be a disaster.
Its a long term project and the FFA if they are considering it or undergoing studies to see if it is viable should only do so when the time is right.

Right now the league should concentrate in expanding as quickly as possible to 14 teams. Only after that a second division should be considered.
 
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whiskeytown

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Licence fees are too much, A League standard grounds not so readily available...etc. There will never be relegation from the A League.

The viability of a 10 team standalone national 2nd division however.... all that needs to be sorted is a broadcast deal that covers the travel costs and the wage increase for the semi professional players.
 

scotty13

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Whether it happens remains to be seen but if it can work in the USA with their crowded sports market It can work here too.
Soccer is 4th or 5th in the US market (NFL, NBA, Baseball are all ahead and Ice Hockey and Soccer switch places depending on the source).

Soccer would be around the same here in Australia (AFL, NRL, Cricket in front). I know here Soccer only competes with cricket and NBL at the time of year it is played, and not sure what it competes with in the USA, but givern there is 340million+ people in USA and Canada (where MLS is played) and about 30million between us and NZ (where A-League is played), there is a lot larger scope for a pro/rel system to work as the potential audience and sponsorship $$$ is a lot larger and a lot more potential cities and new supporters to take up the gap of the loosing side.

As mentioned, it wont work here. If Adel United got relegated and was replaced by South Melbourne, that could leave Melbourne with 4 teams for people to try and support and the whole state of South Australia without a team. or likewise if NZ, Perth or Brisbane got relegated, whole parts of Australia would stop following the sport.

The system would work fine if it was the number 1 sport in the country such as in most, if not all of Europe, but here it would be the beginning of the end for the sport.
 

brucetiki

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Soccer is 4th or 5th in the US market (NFL, NBA, Baseball are all ahead and Ice Hockey and Soccer switch places depending on the source).

Soccer would be around the same here in Australia (AFL, NRL, Cricket in front). I know here Soccer only competes with cricket and NBL at the time of year it is played, and not sure what it competes with in the USA, but givern there is 340million+ people in USA and Canada (where MLS is played) and about 30million between us and NZ (where A-League is played), there is a lot larger scope for a pro/rel system to work as the potential audience and sponsorship $$$ is a lot larger and a lot more potential cities and new supporters to take up the gap of the loosing side.

As mentioned, it wont work here. If Adel United got relegated and was replaced by South Melbourne, that could leave Melbourne with 4 teams for people to try and support and the whole state of South Australia without a team. or likewise if NZ, Perth or Brisbane got relegated, whole parts of Australia would stop following the sport.

The system would work fine if it was the number 1 sport in the country such as in most, if not all of Europe, but here it would be the beginning of the end for the sport.
NHL is a comfortable 4th in the US.

Soccer would be a distant 5th
 

scotty13

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NHL is a comfortable 4th in the US.

Soccer would be a distant 5th
That may be so, but given the population disparity between the countries, Soccer that comfortably sits 4th in Aus is still a long way behind.
 

giggler99

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Soccer is 4th or 5th in the US market (NFL, NBA, Baseball are all ahead and Ice Hockey and Soccer switch places depending on the source).

Soccer would be around the same here in Australia (AFL, NRL, Cricket in front). I know here Soccer only competes with cricket and NBL at the time of year it is played, and not sure what it competes with in the USA, but givern there is 340million+ people in USA and Canada (where MLS is played) and about 30million between us and NZ (where A-League is played), there is a lot larger scope for a pro/rel system to work as the potential audience and sponsorship $$$ is a lot larger and a lot more potential cities and new supporters to take up the gap of the loosing side.

As mentioned, it wont work here. If Adel United got relegated and was replaced by South Melbourne, that could leave Melbourne with 4 teams for people to try and support and the whole state of South Australia without a team. or likewise if NZ, Perth or Brisbane got relegated, whole parts of Australia would stop following the sport.

The system would work fine if it was the number 1 sport in the country such as in most, if not all of Europe, but here it would be the beginning of the end for the sport.
I kinda agree with you. I’m not a big fan of it myself. I just think it is worth at least exploring a system that could work and that would also be cost effective.
 

scotty13

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I kinda agree with you. I’m not a big fan of it myself. I just think it is worth at least exploring a system that could work and that would also be cost effective.
But it won't work... unless Soccer becomes the number 1 sport in Australia it wont work... even with the number 1 sport (AFL) if they implemented a pro/rel system it would kill the comp... We do have the population or mindset for it to work!
 

giggler99

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But it won't work... unless Soccer becomes the number 1 sport in Australia it wont work... even with the number 1 sport (AFL) if they implemented a pro/rel system it would kill the comp... We do have the population or mindset for it to work!
It has nothing to do with being the number one sport or not.
If a stable and viable cost effective system can be implemented it can and will work within its designated market.

If the AFL want to they can create a two tier system tomorrow in fact it might actually make for better competition and interests. For the AFL it’s just not practical or worthy of exploring considering it’s history and corporate structure.
 

scotty13

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It has nothing to do with being the number one sport or not.
If a stable and viable cost effective system can be implemented it can and will work within its designated market.

If the AFL want to they can create a two tier system tomorrow in fact it might actually make for better competition and interests. For the AFL it’s just not practical or worthy of exploring considering it’s history and corporate structure.
In a country of 24m people a viable cost effective system will not occur... To play at the top level requires $$$$ and no company in Aus will sponsor a team hoping they make it there, and if a team makes it there, they will struggle to find the $$$ to survive more than one season. AFL in undoubtably the number 1 sport in the country and there are clubs in the AFL that struggle to find sponsors.
 

giggler99

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In a country of 24m people a viable cost effective system will not occur... To play at the top level requires $$$$ and no company in Aus will sponsor a team hoping they make it there, and if a team makes it there, they will struggle to find the $$$ to survive more than one season. AFL in undoubtably the number 1 sport in the country and there are clubs in the AFL that struggle to find sponsors.
You may be right, all I’m saying is it’s worthy of exploration to try and find a way for it to work with the right system, structure and clubs.
 

tryitout

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The way Brisbane have preformed this year you can guarantee the head honcos at FFA will think the 100% certain way to improve the Roar will be to bring in a derby rival.
 

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The way Brisbane have preformed this year you can guarantee the head honcos at FFA will think the 100% certain way to improve the Roar will be to bring in a derby rival.
As a Brisbane fan I hope it happens, being a one state team has made our club very complacent IMO. That disgraceful article on the Roar site yesterday in regards to the Den the article even mentioned specifically we are Queensland's only A-League and W-League team.

When West Melbourne got in Kevin Muscat said it would force the Vuck to get better, I feel us having a rival would force us to get better as well.

Plus I genuinely miss that rivalry we had with Gold Coast United
 
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