Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

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clogged

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Because I see the destruction of an embryo as the destruction of human life.

Surely you would know that that is the usual reason for opposition towards embryonic stem cell research (and by extension support for other stem cell research from adults)?
So you're opposed to IVF?
 
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So you're opposed to IVF?
IVF is not a clear cut issue hypothetically, but given that the current reality is that more often than not it involves the creation and throwing away of 'unfit' embryos; given that all fertilised embryos must be used (given the aforementioned opposition to throwing away lives); given that these multiple pregnancies often result in numerous failures; given that this leads to the killing of some of the lives created in order that the others stand a better chance of surviving...I do not believe it would be a wise decision to use it.

Are we going to be going through these one by one?
 

DivideandMultiply

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No. Why would I be trolling? Is it so hard to believe that I would hold those views?
Isn't the defining quality of the neo liberal flat earthers like Abbott hypocrisy?

They abandon traditional values such as compassion and charity, but embrace greed and divisiveness.

Baird is another one of these, set on tearing up the public sector starting first with the states hospitals.

Crazy thought, but it is possible to be Christian without being an anti-science, pro corporate, authoritarian nutbag.
 

DivideandMultiply

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 29, 2008
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IVF is not a clear cut issue hypothetically, but given that the current reality is that more often than not it involves the creation and throwing away of 'unfit' embryos; given that all fertilised embryos must be used (given the aforementioned opposition to throwing away lives); given that these multiple pregnancies often result in numerous failures; given that this leads to the killing of some of the lives created in order that the others stand a better chance of surviving...I do not believe it would be a wise decision to use it.

Are we going to be going through these one by one?
Why, don't you have the moral capacity, or patience?

http://sciencealert.com.au/news/20142004-25407.html

Scientists have cloned embryonic stem cells from an adult's skin for the first time


The cloned embryonic stem cells could lead to new treatments for a range of medical conditions.

Scientists have previously produced embryonic stem cells using DNA taken from infants, but for medical purposes researchers also needed to prove they could do the same with adult DNA.

Now researchers in the US have reported they've extracted nuclear DNA from the skin cells of two men, aged 35 and 75, and injected it into human eggs. The women's nuclear DNA had been removed from the eggs before the man's DNA was injected.
http://sciencealert.com.au/news/20142004-25407.html

Yay, or nay?
 
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Isn't the defining quality of the neo liberal flat earthers like Abbott hypocrisy?

They abandon traditional values such as compassion and charity, but embrace greed and divisiveness.

Baird is another one of these, set on tearing up the public sector starting first with the states hospitals.

Crazy thought, but it is possible to be Christian without being an anti-science, pro corporate, authoritarian nutbag.
I dislike the fact that the Liberal Party has become the go-to party for Christians.

The Liberal Party was created as the not-Labor party, and over time that has meant that a whole range of ideologies have been brought together under one roof. This means that they have to debate internally as to policy in order to ensure that outwardly they can put on a unified face that can beat the ALP.

This unfortunately means embracing big business in a way I do not like - especially if you are the leader of that party.

Most Christian parties in Europe, for example, are Christian democrats to a tee - most certainly not classic liberals.
 

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DivideandMultiply

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I dislike the fact that the Liberal Party has become the go-to party for Christians.

The Liberal Party was created as the not-Labor party, and over time that has meant that a whole range of ideologies have been brought together under one roof. This means that they have to debate internally as to policy in order to ensure that outwardly they can put on a unified face that can beat the ALP.

This unfortunately means embracing big business in a way I do not like - especially if you are the leader of that party.

Most Christian parties in Europe, for example, are Christian democrats to a tee - most certainly not classic liberals.
Fair enough, I was aggressive, but this is a genuine and reasonable answer.

However, I see it as impossible reconciling Christian values with a neo-liberal platform, but that's just me.
 

clogged

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Investigated for what?
You said:
Because I see the destruction of an embryo as the destruction of human life.
So you believe in embryonic personhood. If an embryo dies then why shouldn't the circumstances surrounding its death be investigated just as they would an infant (for neglect, abuse, murder, etc).
 
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So you believe in embryonic personhood. If an embryo dies then why shouldn't the circumstances surrounding its death be investigated just as they would an infant (for neglect, abuse, murder, etc).
How would you propose going about such a thing? If they've had an abortion the cause of death is fairly straightforward. If they haven't, you're at best going to be guessing.

Miscarriages are a distressing constant of life, but not a deliberate action.
 

clogged

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How would you propose going about such a thing? If they've had an abortion the cause of death is fairly straightforward. If they haven't, you're at best going to be guessing.

Miscarriages are a distressing constant of life, but not a deliberate action.
There are plenty of occasions where miscarriages are caused by negligent or even deliberate action. Drug and alcohol abuse, violence towards the mother are among a number of causes that result in miscarriage. If an embryo is a person and it dies, why is it not the duty of the authorities to investigate the causes?
 
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There are plenty of occasions where miscarriages are caused by negligent or even deliberate action. Drug and alcohol abuse, violence towards the mother are among a number of causes that result in miscarriage. If an embryo is a person and it dies, why is it not the duty of the authorities to investigate the causes?
How many of those things aren't already investigated or dealt with in some way or another?
 
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Are they? If a drug addict or alcoholic has a miscarriage within 20 weeks nothing is done.
Which then gets into the realm of how much assistance the government should give to addicts, and the way in which they should be dealt. Naturally, I'm going to favour the government increasing their involvement in rehabilitation (including assisting organisation who already do so).
 

clogged

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Which then gets into the realm of how much assistance the government should give to addicts, and the way in which they should be dealt. Naturally, I'm going to favour the government increasing their involvement in rehabilitation (including assisting organisation who already do so).
Tbh I'm really not sure what that has to do with the belief of what stage human life begins.
 
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Tbh I'm really not sure what that has to do with the belief of what stage human life begins.
You're asking whether miscarriages should be treated as child abuse.

We've already established that the only circumstances that you could possibly think to do so would be if the person carrying the child was involved in some form of self abuse which can definitely be established as the reason for the miscarriage. Therefore, logically, the person in question would be treated in a way that is either punative or rehabilitative for what they have done, and I would favour the latter.
 

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