Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

cartwright

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Ask me before I'd really challenged my own beliefs on the issue a few months ago and I'd agree with you. The question is why? Why is it okay to end it's life at 10 weeks but not 20? It's not good enough to just say "well 10 weeks just doesn't feel as bad".

We can't decide whether or not it's acceptable to end a life based on gut feelings and emotions. Decisions like these need to be decided upon based on a rationale and evidence, otherwise we're all just wasting our time.
Because without the woman, it cannot survive.

And a rape victim experiencing ptsd shouldnt have to experience further trauma of carrying a pregnancy. Because if she’s suicidal and having to have a forced pregnancy, well she’ll be forced to deal with it herself.
 

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cartwright

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The government has no more right to force a man to have a vasectomy than it does to force a woman to take birth control/have their tubes tied. The government does, however, have the right to tell both men and women that if they do not take the necessary precautions to avoid falling pregnant then they do not have the right to murder that human because it is an inconvenience.
******* LOL

They’re both personal and medical decisions. But for one you’re ok for govt to force someone, and not the other.

Hmmmhmmmmm
 

0utsider

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Because without the woman, it cannot survive.

And a rape victim experiencing ptsd shouldnt have to experience further trauma of carrying a pregnancy. Because if she’s suicidal and having to have a forced pregnancy, well she’ll be forced to deal with it herself.
A newborn baby also cannot survive on it's own, I don't think you're advocating for the freedom to kill newborns are you?
And you're right, they absolutely should not have to live with that, but if the only way out of it is killing the child then sorry but I think that's reprehensible. There are less barbaric solutions.
 
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0utsider

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******* LOL

They’re both personal and medical decisions. But for one you’re ok for govt to force someone, and not the other.

Hmmmhmmmmm
Vasectomy in men is the equivalent to getting tubes tied in women and I am consistent with my belief that neither should be enforced. Abortion is an entirely different matter as it doesn't solely affect the individual making the decision, it also affects (to much greater extent) the unborn child.
 

samFFC

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A newborn baby also cannot survive on it's own, I don't think you're advocating for the freedom to kill newborns are you?
And you're right, they absolutely should not have to live with that, but if the only way out of it is killing the child then sorry but I think that's reprehensible. There are less barbaric solutions.
Straw man argument.
"Cannot survive on it's own" - not dependent on the mother that birthed it. Lots of mothers have died during childbirth, doesn't mean the newborn is unable to survive. Or could be raised by others.

Foetus - is dependent.
 

0utsider

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Straw man argument.
"Cannot survive on it's own" - not dependent on the mother that birthed it. Lots of mothers have died during childbirth, doesn't mean the newborn is unable to survive. Or could be raised by others.

Foetus - is dependent.
Can you explain why the fact that it is entirely reliant on the mother to sustain it gives anyone the right to kill it?
 

0utsider

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Not a live being.
Not killing.

<end>
(Not interested in debating 'when life begins')
Um... it's definitely alive.

When life begins is core question that needs to be answered. You can not debate it but you should know that you're running the risk of justifying murder if you're wrong. Pathetic to have an opinion on an issue but not be willing to debate certain aspects of it...
 

samFFC

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Um... it's definitely alive.

When life begins is core question that needs to be answered. You can not debate it but you should know that you're running the risk of justifying murder if you're wrong. Pathetic to have an opinion on an issue but not be willing to debate certain aspects of it...
Ive debated on previous pages. I support the view of the vast majority that life does not begin at conception.

And I agree that’s the core question.
Don’t expect to be able to convince you to change your view, as you should not expect to convince me.

I’m more interested in practical aspects like:
-ensuring safe access to a widely practiced medical procedure
-ensuring psychological support for parents, pregnant women (and their partners), people after a miscarriage etc
-support for children after they are born with excellent health care, education, safety, housing etc.

Than I am about the vagaries of religious and non-scientific beliefs.
 

Contra Mundum

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Preach: But opponents of abortion must acknowledge this: Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion. It does, however, make abortions unsafe for women who have them. A study by the Guttmacher Institute found that there were 22.3 million abortions between 2010 and 2014 in countries where abortion is highly restricted—and seventy-four per cent of those abortions were unsafe.


https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/after-alabama
 

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Taylor

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If making something illegal stopped all of that something happening then there wouldn't be a need for courts or prisons.

I'm not going to draw equivalency to any other crimes where a life is ended but the important statistic there is yes, all those abortions were dangerous, they average about 1.0 lives ended per attempt. How many people are live today, or measures taken to avoid pregnancy, because an abortion is illegal?
 

Contra Mundum

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If making something illegal stopped all of that something happening then there wouldn't be a need for courts or prisons.

I'm not going to draw equivalency to any other crimes where a life is ended but the important statistic there is yes, all those abortions were dangerous, they average about 1.0 lives ended per attempt. How many people are live today, or measures taken to avoid pregnancy, because an abortion is illegal?
Why make it illegal then? The deterrence is low - the only consequence is you get unqualified people doing it. if you wanted to reduce abortions you could treat it as a public health issue free condoms, diaphragms, mail and female pill, medical services supporting pregnant women and early natal support for the baby. It has a great deal of sick irony that the States who are implementing these laws have the lowest infant mortality and the poorest health services - and they all knocked back the medicaid extension - so support for poor pregnant mothers is nil - any surprise that abortion regarded as the only option?

. There is no point arguing with you - Commonweal is a Catholic Magazine mate. The women who die because of illegal backyard abortions are collateral damage to your moral purity. This thread is giving me the shits: goodbye
 

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Straw man argument.
"Cannot survive on it's own" - not dependent on the mother that birthed it. Lots of mothers have died during childbirth, doesn't mean the newborn is unable to survive. Or could be raised by others.

Foetus - is dependent.
Same applies to full term foetus as neonate. If it can be born and survive, does not need to be aborted.
 

00Stinger

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I think women who miscarriage and have bonded with their embryo( unborn baby ) get very worked up about it, to the point of it being quite traumatic.
Some do and many don't and move on

The ones who are wanting to have an abortion obviously aren't going to get too worked up about it, so what is the problem with them having abortions?
 

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