The AFL, Clubs and Pokies thread

Gralin

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1. Of course they are picking disadvantaged suburbs, to underscore the fact that residents from these disadvantaged suburbs lose more on pokies in absolute terms (never mind as a percentage of disposable income) than the residents of more affluent suburbs.

2. The largest earning venue, of all the AFL clubs, is the one on the border of City of Melton and City of Brimbank, two of the most disadvantaged areas in Melbourne. That's Hawthorn's, and that has helped them to the top of the pops in annual revenue. The club from affluent Eastern suburbs has increased its annual revenue by fleecing the most disadvantaged people in Melbourne, from a community that is at the polar extreme of what Hawthorn represents.

3. I find it astonishing that both the Australian Centre of Gambling Research, and this out-of-towner, has no problem with what is intended by a reference to the disadvantaged Western suburbs on the one hand and the affluent Eastern suburbs on the other (including Hawthorn and nearby leafy suburbs, stretching due East as far as the eye can see). Why is is that the posters who live in Melbourne, on this board have such difficulty?
Maybe because I live in the east and there are plenty of non leafy non affluent suburbs out this way too, and I have friends who have lived in and around some of the suburbs you seem to think are poor and disadvantaged in the west and property there cost more than where I live currently out east which is a leafy but not affluent suburb.

I have no issue with the argument that Pokies are targeted in neighborhoods that are more likely to use them and that those neighborhoods are usually lower income areas

I do have an issue with you acting like it's an east vs west thing and singling out a club that doesn't have its home base in the suburb it is named after and hasn't for years.

So how about you talk about the broader issues of gambling and revenue from that going to clubs or even the fact that the AFL is sponsored by Crown and that gambling advertising on TV is given a free pass to be on during the day if it is part of a live sports telecast because Hawks vs the western suburbs isn't the issue here and half of Hawks revenue from pokies comes from eastern suburbs.

I am interested to know whether the figure reported at $22mil is the entirety of Hawthorns stake or includes the 23% of revenue at one of the venues that doesn't go to Hawthorn though
 

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The_Wookie

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Why is is that the posters who live in Melbourne, on this board have such difficulty?
What posters - wherever they live - are having difficulty with is 1) your "all hawthorn all the time" agenda. and 2) your inability to see any kind of reason but your own.

Ill not allow this thread to go the same way as the other one. You'll be threadbanned very early in the peace if it continues.
 

Gigantor

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#30
What posters - wherever they live - are having difficulty with is 1) your "all hawthorn all the time" agenda. and 2) your inability to see any kind of reason but your own.

Ill not allow this thread to go the same way as the other one. You'll be threadbanned very early in the peace if it continues.
Hawthorn make the most out of pokies of all the AFL clubs (correct me if I have got that bit wrong).

They make the most out of the one venue (correct me if I have that bit wrong).

It happens to be in a disadvantaged part of Melbourne, far, far away from where Hawthorn is based (correct me if I have that bit wrong).

The Australian Centre for Gambling Research tells us that this part of Melbourne (the Sunshine area), which it describes as disadvantaged and low-income, spends 3.5 times as much on pokies per annum than Hawthorn's very own backyard spends on pokies, and that that propensity to spend money on pokies is entrenching poverty in these areas (their words).

So it's natural to view the club which comes from the affluent part of Melbourne as helping to entrench poverty in a disadvantaged part of Melbourne, far, far away from its home base.

Furthermore, you very own links show that city councils are dissatisfied with what these clubs are putting back into local communities.

Of course they would be, Hawthorn's main interest is to truck money back to the other side of town, it would not view the Sunshine area as being its natural constituency, as if Hawthorn would have the slightest intention on spending one red cent in places like Melton and Sunshine.
 

DemonTim

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#31
Hawthorn make the most out of pokies of all the AFL clubs (correct me if I have got that bit wrong).

They make the most out of the one venue (correct me if I have that bit wrong).

It happens to be in a disadvantaged part of Melbourne, far, far away from where Hawthorn is based (correct me if I have that bit wrong).

The Australian Centre for Gambling Research tells us that this part of Melbourne (the Sunshine area), which it describes as disadvantaged and low-income, spends 3.5 times as much on pokies per annum than Hawthorn's very own backyard spends on pokies, and that that propensity to spend money on pokies is entrenching poverty in these areas (their words).

So it's natural to view the club which comes from the affluent part of Melbourne as helping to entrench poverty in a disadvantaged part of Melbourne, far, far away from its home base.

Furthermore, you very own links show that city councils are dissatisfied with what these clubs are putting back into local communities.

Of course they would be, Hawthorn's main interest is to truck money back to the other side of town, it would not view the Sunshine area as being its natural constituency, as if Hawthorn would have the slightest intention on spending one red cent in places like Melton and Sunshine.
So they wouldn't want to grow their market, take from opposing markets? They only want their market where it originated

Wow. Hawthorn are one shitty business.

He hasn't said what you're saying is wrong, he's said that you have a narrow focus because it fits your anti hawthorn agenda. It's been demonstrated numerous times. But as always you ignore everything said to you, and just keep posting. Over and over.
 

telsor

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#32
Furthermore, you very own links show that city councils are dissatisfied with what these clubs are putting back into local communities.
Yes, from ALL CLUBS.

because...

Of course they would be, Hawthorn's main interest is to truck money back to the other side of town, it would not view the Sunshine area as being its natural constituency, as if Hawthorn would have the slightest intention on spending one red cent in places like Melton and Sunshine.
No club does. No business wants to spend anything they don't have to, anywhere.

All football clubs want to maximise the returns so that they can spend more on their core business, football. Anything spent otherwise is either due to legal requirements or to ensure future growth of their business and increase returns in the longer term.

Which club, and where it happens is IRRELEVANT, but you focus on one club and one site while giving all the rest a pass.

That focus (obsession) is why you are laughed at in these discussions.
 

DemonTim

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#33
Yes, from ALL CLUBS.

because...



No club does. No business wants to spend anything they don't have to, anywhere.

All football clubs want to maximise the returns so that they can spend more on their core business, football. Anything spent otherwise is either due to legal requirements or to ensure future growth of their business and increase returns in the longer term.

Which club, and where it happens is IRRELEVANT, but you focus on one club and one site while giving all the rest a pass.

That focus (obsession) is why you are laughed at in these discussions.
The suggestion that a business would not want to move into non traditional areas is probably the worst yet, of course hawthorn want to grow their numbers in the west

It's especially funny seeing a GWS fan imply there's something negative about forcing oneself into a non traditional area.
 

Gigantor

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#34
So while the one club from affluent Eastern suburbs is unlikely to ever put any money back into the Melton/
sunshine area, there is one club who might have an interest in ploughing more of its pokies revenue back into the local community, and that is the one AFL club which is actually domiciled in the Western Suburbs.

You'll know the one - it changed its name to the Western Bulldogs exactly 20 years ago.

As it happens, that club runs the Western Bulldogs Community Foundation - you guessed - aimed at the Western suburbs.

The Western Bulldog are committed to developing and delivering programs that educate, engage and meet the diverse needs of Melbourne's western region.

The WEstern Bulldogs Community Foundation (WBCF) is the community services arm of the Football Club. We work in partnership with government, corporate and community agencies to deliver services and programs that endeavour to improve social capital and the quality of life of people living in the Melbourne's WEst through to Ballarat. WBCF utilises the Bulldogs brand as a powerful platform to engage a wide range of groups from different communities and positively influence their lives.​

Now, if Hawthorn were running similar community programs in the Melton/Sunshine area, and were ploughing a significant percentage of profits back into the community, then we'd all feel a bit better about Hawthorn taking the highest amount of pokies revenue from the disadvantaged West.

Personally, the right to earn profits from pokies should come with the quid pro quo that a significant percentage gets used for community programs.

But let's be serious, as if Hawthorn would have the slightest interest in putting its money back into the Melton/Sunshine area.
 

DemonTim

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#35
So while the one club from affluent Eastern suburbs is unlikely to ever put any money back into the Melton/
sunshine area, there is one club who might have an interest in ploughing more of its pokies revenue back into the local community, and that is the one AFL club which is actually domiciled in the Western Suburbs.

You'll know the one - it changed its name to the Western Bulldogs exactly 20 years ago.

As it happens, that club runs the Western Bulldogs Community Foundation - you guessed - aimed at the Western suburbs.

The Western Bulldog are committed to developing and delivering programs that educate, engage and meet the diverse needs of Melbourne's western region.

The WEstern Bulldogs Community Foundation (WBCF) is the community services arm of the Football Club. We work in partnership with government, corporate and community agencies to deliver services and programs that endeavour to improve social capital and the quality of life of people living in the Melbourne's WEst through to Ballarat. WBCF utilises the Bulldogs brand as a powerful platform to engage a wide range of groups from different communities and positively influence their lives.​

Now, if Hawthorn were running similar community programs in the Melton/Sunshine area, and were ploughing a significant percentage of profits back into the community, then we'd all feel a bit better about Hawthorn taking the highest amount of pokies revenue from the disadvantaged West.

Personally, the right to earn profits from pokies should come with the quid pro quo that a significant percentage gets used for community programs.

But let's be serious, as if Hawthorn would have the slightest interest in putting its money back into the Melton/Sunshine area.
Again. You just parrot your point without addressing any response
Go start a blog.
 

Gigantor

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#36
Yes, from ALL CLUBS.

because...



No club does. No business wants to spend anything they don't have to, anywhere.

All football clubs want to maximise the returns so that they can spend more on their core business, football. Anything spent otherwise is either due to legal requirements or to ensure future growth of their business and increase returns in the longer term.

Which club, and where it happens is IRRELEVANT, but you focus on one club and one site while giving all the rest a pass.

That focus (obsession) is why you are laughed at in these discussions.
I'm putting forward my concerns about Hawthorn (and with pretty good justification).

If anyone feels other clubs are in the same boat - then put forward that argument - but no one appears to have the slightest bit of concern with any of this.

All people are doing is supporting Hawthorn's god-given right to fleece the poorest people in Melbourne, far away from Hawthorn's natural constituency, as they help entrench poverty in one of the most disadvantaged parts of Melbourne.

People are getting annoyed because they don't want to face up to any of this.
 

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DemonTim

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#37
I'm putting forward my concerns about Hawthorn (and with pretty good justification).

If anyone feels other clubs are in the same boat - then put forward that argument - but no one appears to have the slightest bit of concern with any of this.

All people are doing is supporting Hawthorn's god-given right to fleece the poorest people in Melbourne, far away from Hawthorn's natural constituency, as they help entrench poverty in one of the most disadvantaged parts of Melbourne.

People are getting annoyed because they don't want to face up to any of this.
We did put the argument forward about other clubs, in the damn thread that got locked because you just copied and pasted over and over and over

Collingwood in lilydale, Carlton in the outer east, Collingwood in Ringwood, the Bulldogs in dromana. You responded once to the Bulldogs in dromana, I gave you stats about dromana and you ignored it and went back to hawthorn.

Yay. Another thread ruined by gigantor and his James hird like obsession with the Hawks.
 

DemonTim

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#38
And also people are annoyed because you continually stereotype and only want to discuss one team and one venue. I'll be sure to tell my mother she's so well off living in the outer east while she makes less than a retail worker. ******* moron
 

Gigantor

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#39
And also people are annoyed because you continually stereotype and only want to discuss one team and one venue. I'll be sure to tell my mother she's so well off living in the outer east while she makes less than a retail worker. ******* moron
Is that basically it? You don't like me emphasising how disadvantaged the Melton/Sunshine area is?
 

DemonTim

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#40
Is that basically it? You don't like me emphasising how disadvantaged the Melton/Sunshine area is?
I've responded to many of your points
Although I'm unsure how my implication that you saying the east is affluent as a whole, means I don't like you saying Melton is disadvantaged (although I showed gaming areas that were more disadvantaged in the other thread, but you just went On and on about your misinterpretations of a study)
You'd think the implication in my post was clear.
 

The_Wookie

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Is that basically it? You don't like me emphasising how disadvantaged the Melton/Sunshine area is?
Thats not what your doing, or you wouldnt ignore other clubs pokies in the area as if they were "ok". See: Collingwood, who are LITERALLY around the corner from the Hawks in Caroline Springs, and Essendon, who are also located in the City of Melton, but dont rate a mention. Nor do any number of other pokie places.

That Pokies are bad is indisputable. that only hawthorns pokies are bad is rubbish.
 

Gigantor

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#42
Once again, how is it that I understand what the Australian Centre for Gambling Research means when it refers to the affluent Eastern suburbs (as opposed to the disadvantaged Western Suburbs), but the posters who live in Melbourne don't appear to understand?
 

DemonTim

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#43
Thats not what your doing, or you wouldnt ignore other clubs pokies in the area as if they were "ok". See: Collingwood, who are LITERALLY around the corner from the Hawks in Caroline Springs, and Essendon, who are also located in the City of Melton, but dont rate a mention. Nor do any number of other pokie places.
He showed it in the other thread, he doesn't care about the disadvantage, unless it is hawthorn involved in the venues, other clubs can take advantage of the disadvantaged. He all but flat out said it.
 

DemonTim

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#44
Once again, how is it that I understand what the Australian Centre for Gambling Research means when it refers to the affluent Eastern suburbs (as opposed to the disadvantaged Western Suburbs), but the posters who live in Melbourne don't appear to understand?
They actually referred to two very very specific areas. Or do you think that them research box hill has implications for Bayswater, Croydon, lilydale, mt Evelyn, woori yallock, wandin?
You made it quite clear that the west only covers he areas you deem it to, so can we assume the east only covers where you say it does? Is Kilsyth east?
 

Gralin

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Admin #45
Is that basically it? You don't like me emphasising how disadvantaged the Melton/Sunshine area is?
Your repeated use of the disadvantaged western suburbs vs affluent eastern suburbs is a really broad and incorrect generalisation

Your assertion that because a club is called hawthorn it is only supported by people from hawthorn is incorrect.

It's been pointed out that the Hawks are based in mulgrave, their other venue which made over $11 mil is based about 2km from the Hawks base but you keep ignoring that.

Carlton and essendon and Geelong and collingwood all have venues in the West that have been ignored.

Your beef seems to be with the club most geographically east on the map that you believe is run and supported by bankers praying on the working class who only live west of town.

It's lazy, incorrect and offensive.

You're not adding to the discussion because you aren't engaging in a discussion. All footy clubs that have pokies profit off on average lower income earners because that's who loses on pokies the most.

It doesn't matter where you put the venue. People don't always work where they live, some go to venues away from home so they don't get caught.

Your beef about the bulldogs is not the Hawks fault, that was between the doggies the devoloper and the council.

If you worry this much about people being exploited by pokies you should probably protest Woolworths not the Hawks.

Or better yet protest them all, every club or business involved in pokies
 

Gigantor

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#46
Thats not what your doing, or you wouldnt ignore other clubs pokies in the area as if they were "ok". See: Collingwood, who are LITERALLY around the corner from the Hawks in Caroline Springs, and Essendon, who are also located in the City of Melton, but dont rate a mention. Nor do any number of other pokie places.
The truth is that people on this board do not appear to have any problem with clubs earning pokies revenue.

I have given my reasons for focusing on Hawthorn, and I stand by those reasons.

I am of the philosophy that the privilege of earning pokies revenue should come with a quid pro quo, that is, a significant portion of the profits gets pumped back into the local community.

The Western Bulldogs are well placed to do that (see post above on the Western Bulldogs Community Foundation), and the Hawthorn are not well placed to do that, in fact, of all the Melbourne clubs, they have the least reason to be there (in terms of distance from that particular community: geographically, socio-economically), they are there precisely to take advantage of those who can least afford to be taken advantage of.
 

The_Wookie

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Moderator #47
Once again, how is it that I understand what the Australian Centre for Gambling Research means when it refers to the affluent Eastern suburbs (as opposed to the disadvantaged Western Suburbs), but the posters who live in Melbourne don't appear to understand?
I figured id read the research you keep crapping on about. of note

The Gambling in Suburban Australia Study research sites are: Site 1: The suburb cluster of Sunshine, Sunshine West, Sunshine North, Ardeer, Albion and Braybrook in Melbourne's west. Site 2: The suburb cluster of Box Hill, North Box Hill, South Box Hill, Blackburn, North Blackburn and South Blackburn in Melbourne's east.
Of interest is that Hawthorns pokies are in none of these surburbs. In fact, Im not sure any AFL clubs have pokies in these suburbs.
 

Gigantor

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#48
Your repeated use of the disadvantaged western suburbs vs affluent eastern suburbs is a really broad and incorrect generalisation

Your assertion that because a club is called hawthorn it is only supported by people from hawthorn is incorrect.
The Australian Centre for Gambling Research uses those exact terms.

I understand what they mean, and yet the posters on this board who live in Melbourne have a lot of trouble coming to grips with what should be a pretty basic concept, i.e in terms of income and education, there is a massive gulf between the people of the Melton/Sunshine area when compared to the Hawthorn area, and all those suburbs immediately East of it.

That people can point to a group of houses here or there does not impact on what I have just written.

This area, the disadvantaged West, spends 3.5 times what is spent in the affluent Eastern suburbs, that's per adult per annum, and that's in absolute terms. It's a frightening discrepancy.

And that's where Hawthorn's facility is, the team from these very same affluent Eastern suburbs, draws the most pokie revenue of any other club from a segment of the Melbourne to which it has very little relationship, be that geographic or socio-economic.
 

The_Wookie

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The truth is that people on this board do not appear to have any problem with clubs earning pokies revenue.
Thats rubbish.

I have given my reasons for focusing on Hawthorn, and I stand by those reasons.
Your reasons appear to be limited to: hawthorn are based far away from the west, and how dare they make money from a perfectly legal business. And never mind the many other similar business in the area, hawthorn is bad because they have actually succeeded in their joint venture.

I am of the philosophy that the privilege of earning pokies revenue should come with a quid pro quo, that is, a significant portion of the profits gets pumped back into the local community.
Thats nice, and as it should be.

The Western Bulldogs are well placed to do that (see post above on the Western Bulldogs Community Foundation), and the Hawthorn are not well placed to do that, in fact, of all the Melbourne clubs, they have the least reason to be there (in terms of distance from that particular community: geographically, socio-economically), they are there precisely to take advantage of those who can least afford to be taken advantage of.
Rubbish. Any venue could be made to invest part of its proceeds back into its local community instead of dragging them back home. End result: AFL clubs will stop investing in pokies facilities and faceless corporations like Woolworths will take them - end result being no community benefit anyway.
 
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