The AFL, Clubs and Pokies thread

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#51
I figured id read the research you keep crapping on about. of note



Of interest is that Hawthorns pokies are in none of these surburbs. In fact, Im not sure any AFL clubs have pokies in these suburbs.

Hawthorn's facility is inside the City of Melton, but on the very border with the City of Brimbank.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Gralin

Super Moderator
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Posts
27,345
Likes
40,950
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Buffalo Bills
Admin #52
The Australian Centre for Gambling Research uses those exact terms.

I understand what they mean, and yet the posters on this board who live in Melbourne have a lot of trouble coming to grips with what should be a pretty basic concept, i.e in terms of income and education, there is a massive gulf between the people of the Melton/Sunshine area when compared to the Hawthorn area, and all those suburbs immediately East of it.

That people can point to a group of houses here or there does not impact on what I have just written.

This area, the disadvantaged West, spends 3.5 times what is spent in the affluent Eastern suburbs, that's per adult per annum, and that's in absolute terms. It's a frightening discrepancy.

And that's where Hawthorn's facility is, the team from these very same affluent Eastern suburbs, draws the most pokie revenue of any other club from a segment of the Melbourne to which it has very little relationship, be that geographic or socio-economic.
But the suburb of Hawthorn wasn't part of the study and Melton is where Essendon have their venue
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #53
Hawthorn's facility is inside the City of Melton, but on the very border with the City of Brimbank.
The Gambling research centres publication did not associate LGAs. It specifically cites suburb clusters. You have completely invented that.

Ill quote again

The Gambling in Suburban Australia Study research sites are: Site 1: The suburb cluster of Sunshine, Sunshine West, Sunshine North, Ardeer, Albion and Braybrook in Melbourne's west. Site 2: The suburb cluster of Box Hill, North Box Hill, South Box Hill, Blackburn, North Blackburn and South Blackburn in Melbourne's east.
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #54
Tale of two suburbs: Gambling in suburban Australia
Media Release — 7 July 2016
https://aifs.gov.au/media-releases/tale-two-suburbs-gambling-suburban-australia


New research by the Australian Gambling Research Centre has found that gambling addiction is having a much bigger impact on families in Melbourne's western suburbs, compared to those in Melbourne's east.

In a research presentation to the Australian Institute of Family Studies' conference, findings from the Gambling in Suburban Australia study detail the impact of gambling on a cluster of western suburbs - around Sunshine - compared to an eastern suburbs area - around Box Hill.

The Centre's director, Anne Hollonds said the research found that gambling losses in the western suburbs were more than three times higher than those in the eastern suburbs.

"In the western suburbs around Sunshine, the annual average loss per adult on poker machines was $1,358, compared to $400 for adults in the eastern suburbs around Box Hill," Ms Hollonds said.

"While the higher losses in the west were not unexpected; this is the first time they had been quantified in this way.

"The two sites have almost the same number of households and are roughly the same distance from the city but the impact of gambling on families is far greater in the western suburbs."

The Centre's Research Fellow, Angela Rintoul said the harm from gambling could be more severe for people in the western suburbs who had fewer resources to draw upon than those in the eastern suburbs.

"Households in the west have a higher level of socioeconomic disadvantage, whereas households in the east were around average," she said.

"This magnifies the harm from gambling. For example, one gambler in the east said losses meant their family had to go without repairing the dishwasher for six months, while several gamblers in the west said gambling losses meant they literally could not afford food for their children."

Dr Rintoul said there were many more gambling venues in the west and twice as many gambling machines per head of population than in the east.

"Around Sunshine there are 407 electronic gambling machines, or 10 machines for every 1,000 adults, compared to the Box Hill area where there are 205 machines, or 4 for every 1,000 adults," she said.

Dr Rintoul said the study also raised concerns about the consistency of venues' compliance with codes of conduct for gamblers.

"There are written codes of conduct that staff use in assisting people showing signs of gambling problems but based on our observations and interviews, these did not always match up with the practices of some venue staff," she said.

"For example, gamblers may be playing two machines at once and betting above $3 per spin and still be provided with a meal at their machine. These are signs of problem gambling that need to be disrupted, rather than facilitated by venue staff.

"Study participants also expressed concern about exposing gambling to young people. For example some venues in the west have children's play equipment on site, whereas gambling venues in the east did not.

"It is important for communities to develop their own spaces for families to visit outside the home without exposing children to gambling.

"This research will help inform all levels of government about who goes to these venues, why they go and how the effects of gambling are being felt in these local communities.

"In turn, this will help inform regulators of the issues they should be considering when reviewing applications for additional gambling facilities at a local level."

The Gambling in Suburban Australia Study research sites are: Site 1: The suburb cluster of Sunshine, Sunshine West, Sunshine North, Ardeer, Albion and Braybrook in Melbourne's west. Site 2: The suburb cluster of Box Hill, North Box Hill, South Box Hill, Blackburn, North Blackburn and South Blackburn in Melbourne's east.
 

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#55
Rubbish. Any venue could be made to invest part of its proceeds back into its local community instead of dragging them back home. End result: AFL clubs will stop investing in pokies facilities and faceless corporations like Woolworths will take them - end result being no community benefit anyway.
That's a pretty speculative conclusion.

If a significant percentage of profits must be used within the local community, I put it to you that a not-for-profit endeavour like a footy club is more likely to fall in line than a for-profit entity.

Anyway, it would not take too much to limit the license to run pokies to not-for-profit entities.

When people talk of pokies being a legal activity, in Melbourne, we're only talking some 20 years that it has been legal.

If pokies are entrenching poverty in places like Melton/Sunshine, then some firmer government action is warranted.

I'm not sure why people on this board feel that pokies should naturally remain a profitable activity for profit-making entities.

Why should that be viewed as immutable, especially in Victoria where pokies are so new.?
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #57
Further the assertion I object to the automatic inclusion of Melton with Sunshine on the basis that according to the ABS Stats from 2011 - the next study is due in 2018 - The City of Brimbank ranks #9 , where the city of Melton ranks #48 on the SEIFA.

 

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#58
But the suburb of Hawthorn wasn't part of the study and Melton is where Essendon have their venue

I view Box Hill has being in Hawthorn's back yard.

You think the propensity to spend money on pokies will change as it gets closer to Hawthorn?

The disadvantaged Western suburbs spend 3.5 times more than the affluent Eastern suburbs.
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #59
That's a pretty speculative conclusion.
No less speculative than most of the stuff you've written here.

If a significant percentage of profits must be used within the local community, I put it to you that a not-for-profit endeavour like a footy club is more likely to fall in line than a for-profit entity.
Im pretty sure thats more or less what i wrote.

Anyway, it would not take too much to limit the license to run pokies to not-for-profit entities.
lol. right.



I'm not sure why people on this board feel that pokies should naturally remain a profitable activity for profit-making entities.

Why should that be viewed as immutable, especially in Victoria where pokies are so new.?
Im not sure why you are making up conclusions that arent based on anything presented on this board. People disagreeing with your Hawthorn position and cherry picked studies havent expressed approval of pokies in general, just disapproval of your argument. Which, despite warnings, has taken over this thread again it seems.
 

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#60
The Gambling research centres publication did not associate LGAs. It specifically cites suburb clusters. You have completely invented that.

Ill quote again
I'll repeat, Hawthorn's facility is in the City of Melton, but it is not in Melton - there's a difference, it is on the border with Brimbank.
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #61
I view Box Hill has being in Hawthorn's back yard.

You think the propensity to spend money on pokies will change as it gets closer to Hawthorn?

The disadvantaged Western suburbs spend 3.5 times more than the affluent Eastern suburbs.
You cant just cite a study and extend it to areas not included in the study like its a fact.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

DemonTim

Cancelled
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Posts
11,394
Likes
8,059
AFL Club
Melbourne
#62
Further the assertion I object to the automatic inclusion of Melton with Sunshine on the basis that according to the ABS Stats from 2011 - the next study is due in 2018 - The City of Brimbank ranks #9 , where the city of Melton ranks #48 on the SEIFA.

Thanks wookie. That should completely shut discussion down, since three of the specific areas I mentioned that other clubs operate in are much lower

I didn't find this in my research, but this just blows it's whole theory and failed understanding of research out of the water

I can only assume it will do what it has done in the past, ignore it, and copy and paste the same stuff over and over
 

Furn2

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 27, 2012
Posts
8,695
Likes
13,846
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#63
Pubs have RSA guidelines. People can only spend so much on fried food each day, ie you can only eat so much.
Even a few Pokie sessions can lead to large lossses that affect peoples lives & their families far more permanently than beers & fried foods.
I'm not talking about pubs I'm talking about clubs and the afl pushing Coca Cola and hungry jacks etc.

1 million diabetics. 4 million obese. 15 million overweight in Aus. Record rates of bowel cancer.

Pokies are pretty harmless in comparison. They just take your money. You can always get more money.
 

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#64
No less speculative than most of the stuff you've written here.
Really?

Let's go through it again.

1. Hawthorn earns the most pokies revenue of any club (has anyone argued otherwise).

2. It's facility in Caroline Springs earns the most pokie revenue of any other venue in the AFL (not open to debate).

3. Caroline Springs is part of the City of Melton, and sits alongside the City of Brimbank, two of the most disadvantaged areas in Melbourne.

4. The Australian Centre for Gambling Research states that the disadvantaged West spend 3.5 times more per annum than the affluent Eastern suburbs, which is where Hawthorn is from.

5. The Australian Centre for Gambling Research states that this higher propensity to gamble on pokies is entrenching poverty in the disadvantaged Western suburbs.

6. So this club from the affluent Eastern suburbs, where there is a lower propensity to spend money on pokies, is profiting from the greater propensity to spend money on pokies in Melbourne's Western suburbs, and therefore is helping in entrenching poverty in the disadvantaged Western suburbs.

7. Unlike the Western Bulldogs, which runs community programs in this area, Hawthorn has no such community programs.
 

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#65
I'm not talking about pubs I'm talking about clubs and the afl pushing Coca Cola and hungry jacks etc.

1 million diabetics. 4 million obese. 15 million overweight in Aus. Record rates of bowel cancer.

Pokies are pretty harmless in comparison. They just take your money. You can always get more money.

Pokies are pretty harmless in comparison?

As madmug is intimating, a father or mother can basically bankrupt a family overnight by playing pokies, they can spend every last cent they own (plus some), leaving a whole family destitute.

How can that be described as harmless?
 

Gigantor

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 13, 2012
Posts
14,487
Likes
4,615
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
Brumbies, Socceroos
#66
You cant just cite a study and extend it to areas not included in the study like its a fact.
I note St Albans is not in the study.

You reckon St Albans would give a different result to Sunshine West, Ardeer, Sunshine North, Albion, etc?

So yeh, I definitely can draw conclusions from that study and apply them to nearby areas such as St Albans and Melton, where we know there are similar levels of disadvantage.

Also, the people of Sunshine West and Ardeer do have the capacity to hop in a car and drive the few minutes needed to get to Caroline Springs.

Lastly, I'm not sure why you are making a big deal of those SEIFA rankings, about 80% of them are rural, and my point has been about the disparity between the disadvantaged WEstern Suburbs and the affluent Eastern suburbs.
 

Gralin

Super Moderator
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Posts
27,345
Likes
40,950
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Buffalo Bills
Admin #67
I wonder if the study had centred on say Springvale and Williamstown whether the end article would have been Melbourne's disadvantaged east being hurt by pokies more than the affluent west

You can't pick two regions based on distance from cbd and use them to generalise over both sides of a city
 

rfctiger74

Premium Platinum
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Posts
42,401
Likes
78,817
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
76'ers
#68
Tale of two suburbs: Gambling in suburban Australia
Media Release — 7 July 2016
https://aifs.gov.au/media-releases/tale-two-suburbs-gambling-suburban-australia


New research by the Australian Gambling Research Centre has found that gambling addiction is having a much bigger impact on families in Melbourne's western suburbs, compared to those in Melbourne's east.

In a research presentation to the Australian Institute of Family Studies' conference, findings from the Gambling in Suburban Australia study detail the impact of gambling on a cluster of western suburbs - around Sunshine - compared to an eastern suburbs area - around Box Hill.

The Centre's director, Anne Hollonds said the research found that gambling losses in the western suburbs were more than three times higher than those in the eastern suburbs.

"In the western suburbs around Sunshine, the annual average loss per adult on poker machines was $1,358, compared to $400 for adults in the eastern suburbs around Box Hill," Ms Hollonds said.

"While the higher losses in the west were not unexpected; this is the first time they had been quantified in this way.

"The two sites have almost the same number of households and are roughly the same distance from the city but the impact of gambling on families is far greater in the western suburbs."

The Centre's Research Fellow, Angela Rintoul said the harm from gambling could be more severe for people in the western suburbs who had fewer resources to draw upon than those in the eastern suburbs.

"Households in the west have a higher level of socioeconomic disadvantage, whereas households in the east were around average," she said.

"This magnifies the harm from gambling. For example, one gambler in the east said losses meant their family had to go without repairing the dishwasher for six months, while several gamblers in the west said gambling losses meant they literally could not afford food for their children."

Dr Rintoul said there were many more gambling venues in the west and twice as many gambling machines per head of population than in the east.

"Around Sunshine there are 407 electronic gambling machines, or 10 machines for every 1,000 adults, compared to the Box Hill area where there are 205 machines, or 4 for every 1,000 adults," she said.

Dr Rintoul said the study also raised concerns about the consistency of venues' compliance with codes of conduct for gamblers.

"There are written codes of conduct that staff use in assisting people showing signs of gambling problems but based on our observations and interviews, these did not always match up with the practices of some venue staff," she said.

"For example, gamblers may be playing two machines at once and betting above $3 per spin and still be provided with a meal at their machine. These are signs of problem gambling that need to be disrupted, rather than facilitated by venue staff.

"Study participants also expressed concern about exposing gambling to young people. For example some venues in the west have children's play equipment on site, whereas gambling venues in the east did not.

"It is important for communities to develop their own spaces for families to visit outside the home without exposing children to gambling.

"This research will help inform all levels of government about who goes to these venues, why they go and how the effects of gambling are being felt in these local communities.

"In turn, this will help inform regulators of the issues they should be considering when reviewing applications for additional gambling facilities at a local level."

The Gambling in Suburban Australia Study research sites are: Site 1: The suburb cluster of Sunshine, Sunshine West, Sunshine North, Ardeer, Albion and Braybrook in Melbourne's west. Site 2: The suburb cluster of Box Hill, North Box Hill, South Box Hill, Blackburn, North Blackburn and South Blackburn in Melbourne's east.
you are aware Box Hill is a dry zone, and its therefore a requirement that any new premise doesn't just need council approval, it needs to be voted on and approved by the local citizens?

with that hurdle in place, no shit box hill has SFA pokies

*and that hurdle is a long historic one going back decades before pokies were even legal in victoria, it was a liquor licencing restriction initially (now covers both)
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #69
Lastly, I'm not sure why you are making a big deal of those SEIFA rankings, about 80% of them are rural, and my point has been about the disparity between the disadvantaged WEstern Suburbs and the affluent Eastern suburbs.
Well lets move onto this point then. The number of pokies between the east and west, the wests apparent increased susceptbility compared to the east, etc etc.

Sure, the city of Brimbank is top for losses...care to guess who the next cabs off the rank are? Casey and Dandenong. How far west are these?


ref: https://www.vcgr.vic.gov.au/CA256F800017E8D4/VCGLR/2C4FB00D26AF1EFFCA257B320078D3F5?OpenDocument
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Posts
31,710
Likes
29,011
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
Moderator #71
I wonder if the study had centred on say Springvale and Williamstown whether the end article would have been Melbourne's disadvantaged east being hurt by pokies more than the affluent west

You can't pick two regions based on distance from cbd and use them to generalise over both sides of a city
thats just it if you'd picked say Dandenong and Hobsons Bay, you'd have got the reverse.
 

DemonTim

Cancelled
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Posts
11,394
Likes
8,059
AFL Club
Melbourne
#72
Well lets move onto this point then. The number of pokies between the east and west, the wests apparent increased susceptbility compared to the east, etc etc.

Sure, the city of Brimbank is top for losses...care to guess who the next cabs off the rank are? Casey and Dandenong. How far west are these?


ref: https://www.vcgr.vic.gov.au/CA256F800017E8D4/VCGLR/2C4FB00D26AF1EFFCA257B320078D3F5?OpenDocument
The point you're responding to is non existent. 80% are rural? So, the three areas I specified in which Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond operate venues are below both Melton and Brimbank. They're not rural, and they're not west

The most disingenuous poster I've seen here
 

DemonTim

Cancelled
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Posts
11,394
Likes
8,059
AFL Club
Melbourne
#73
thats just it if you'd picked say Dandenong and Hobsons Bay, you'd have got the reverse.
as I said in the other thread. They chose the two areas for a specific reason, to make their findings seem more shocking. It's a very basic research tactic to push your point. Most research is done in this manner. Comparing like for like doesn't show much
 

madmug

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Posts
14,078
Likes
7,609
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Collingwood
#74
I'm not talking about pubs I'm talking about clubs and the afl pushing Coca Cola and hungry jacks etc.

1 million diabetics. 4 million obese. 15 million overweight in Aus. Record rates of bowel cancer.

Pokies are pretty harmless in comparison. They just take your money. You can always get more money.
All places that serve alcohol must practice RSA. You cant eat enough, or drink enough coke in 2 hours at the footy to cause obesity or dibetes.
You can destroy youself financially using an AFL clubs pokies.
 

DemonTim

Cancelled
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Posts
11,394
Likes
8,059
AFL Club
Melbourne
#75
All places that serve alcohol must practice RSA. You cant eat enough, or drink enough coke in 2 hours at the footy to cause obesity or dibetes.
You can destroy youself financially using an AFL clubs pokies.
I take it you haven't been to a licenced venue in a while
It's not about the two hours of consumption either
 
Top Bottom