The AFL's greatest chokers.

[Bradley]

Here is a test for all you AFL trivia buffs. I only really know of the great 90's chokes like the Bulldogs in the 97 prelim or Adelaide in the 93 prelim, or maybe even Hawthorn in the mid 80's grand final. Of course there must be many more to tell! What team or what game do you think is the greatest choke in the history of the game? Please add below.

 

[Dan26]

This seems to be the new buzz word : "Choke"

Any time a team loses a match, even if it by small margin, people say "choke". That's rubbish.

In a team sport of 18 players, I think it is nearly impossible to choke. Pease tell me, how can 18 players all simultaneously play badly ??? It can't happen. A tennis player can choke, but for 18 footballers to all play bad at the same time is impossible.

There are many factors. They aren't robots. Big turnarounds can happen. Fitness can play a factor, momentum, and luck.

These days, even if a team loses by the smallest posible margin, clearly having performed on the day, having had more of the ball and more of the pay, people are quick to label them.

Having said all that, I would define choking as "Not prefroming when you should perform". Whether they choked or not, the best example I can find was the Dogs vc Adelaide in 1998. A Week off, playing in Victoria, and 3 positions higher on the ladder, and they lost by 70 points. They didn't perform. But that can happen in footy.

They could have played the same game the next week, under the same "preliminary final" pressure, between the same two teams, and the Bulldogs could have won by 10 goals !

Anyone can perform badly on the day. I remember in 1983, Morth Melbourne, who finished top, lost ahome and away match to Fitzroy by 150 points. Football is a funny game like that.

If a team perform badly when they SHOULD perform well, I think it is more a case of the variable of football coming into play.

HOW can 22 athletes all, simultaneously get nervous and not perform ? One or two, sure, but then there would be one or two from the opposition who get nervous too. It is impossible for such a large number of footballers to al play badly at the same time.

Choking is not the correct word to use in a team sport. It is a more apprpriate word to use in sports such as Tennis and Golf.

 

[Mr Ripper]

Essendon in 1948.

Finished top with 16.5 wins from 19 games, 3.5 games ahead of Melbourne. Easily won the 2nd semi 13.16 to 8.10 and then blew the Grand Final booting 7.27 to draw with Melb 10.9. The Dons then got creamed in the GF replay 13.11 to 7.8.

Now that's a choke.

 

[Power Mad]

The Hawthorn capitulation at the Gabba (about 45 points up at 3QT) a few seasons back and Saint Kilda giving up a 60-odd point first half lead to the Hawks more recently must have been very embarrassing for their fans, but the funniest one was dramatically highlighted by Alistair Lynch in last year's semi-final against the Dogs...

 

[Pessimistic]

Eagles in '91 when they were rampant in the H&A but lost a home final (the first and last by an interstate team)and well beaten in the GF. You can sympathise, however, as they met a re-union of the greatest team there ever was

As supporting acts all the hidings eagles have had in recent finals, but still argue the toss with north fans abour some
meaningless 'team of the decade' argument

Or the eagles getting belted twice by Hawthorn in '94, a premiership year

Just remember guys, after last week your guys no longer intimidate anyone.

 

[Eagle_Fan]

OK, first of all Pes, I really don't think you should read too much into the game from a fortnight ago. Hawthorn had so much to gain. We had nothing to lose. I think you'll find we've won just 2 Ansett Cup games (incl the one from the weekend) in the past few years. It's of no importance to us.

Secondly, I'm glad people are no longer intimidated by us. Why should they be? For years it seems everyone has had us as near favorites at the start of the season. We haven't been the same team as in 91-95 for ages. When expectation is so high, it's nearly impossible not to dissapoint. Perhaps this year we can be treated normally.

Finally, in 1991, we were Grand Final virgins. Who said it was meant to be perfect first time?

 

[Dan26]

I'd back Essendons 1985 team against Hawthorns 1988-89, and 1991 teams anyday, great as those Hawthorn teams were.

Having said that, the closest a team has ever been to being unbeatable was the Eagles early in 1991. I don't think I've ever felt as though a team simply couldn't lose. They didn't just win theor first 12 games, but they won them, by massive margins. Half way through the season, they had a percentage of 200 !!!!

They finished the H&A with a percentage of 162 ! For every 100 poins their opposition scored, the Eagles scored 162 themselves ! This indicates how far and away they were better than every other team that year. At their best in 1991, the Eagles would have beaten ANYONE.

They lost 3 H&A games all by close margins.

They peaked over the whole 22 week season, and Hawthorn peaked over the finals and beat them. Hawthorn deserved to beat them on the day, as they were too good ON THE DAY. But overall, the Eagles were a better team in 1991, and, in may ways the best individual team in maay year of the 1990's. They lost one match at the end of the year. But as I have been saying, and as the media, and coaches have been saying for years and years: The best team doesn't necessarily win the GF. The best team on the day does.

West Coast were better in 1991, than they were in 1992. Ijn 1991 their defence only conceded something like 1500 points !!! Unbelievable. For all their dominance, they got the McClelland trophy (not recognised, though it should be), but they were stil the best individual team of the 1990's.

In 1991, West Coast were the best team of the year as a percentage of 162 indicates. Hawthorn peaked over the finals series. West Coast peaked over 6 months. BOTH deserve credit.

And concerning the Eagles in 1991, like I said earlier, sporting team can't choke. It's impossible. Certain players WITHIN the team can choke, tennis player, and golfers can choke. But how can ALL 18 players play badly simultaneously.

If a TEAM is playing badly, it is becasue of the literally thousands of variables that exist. Eg, weather, fitness, injuries, luck, coaching moves, tactics, momentum, home crowd, home ground, complacency etc etc.

Choking is imposible in a team sport with 22 players on each team. How can 22 players all crack under pressure at the same time. Sure one or two might, but so will some from the opposition !

There are other factors, which is why comebacks happen.

 

[Pessimistic]

Yeah, Everyone raves about the 1985 Essendon team !

By the way, dan24, this thread is about teams choking, not whether the mclelland trophy is good enough recompense. Please start a thread on that subject and happily post to yourself, as no-one else cares

By the way, in 1991 the Hawks defeated that 'mighty' team on their own ground in the first and last final to ever be won away by a victorian club. So even the Mclelland trophy winner can have a team which is superior. eg Eagles won flag in '94, but hawthorn belted them twice. Thats in a year when we became 'cannon' fodder to North, Carlton, Melbourne and Richmond

It's a funny old sport, but I wouldn't stuff too much with the H&A/finals mix. You often quote english football but there the top six or so spots are worth playing for because of european qualification. In AFL, if top spot was the only place to be, by the end of the season there would be no interest in for any team bar the top three or four (in most years)

 

[Bluey]

Yup Dan24, I'd have to say by looking at the poll that the consensus is that the Minor Premiers/Premiers set up that is in place is the way people want it to stay.

Having said that, this thread is about CHOKERS not the premiership issue.

My rough definition of choking is going into the game prepared and focused. Racking up a healthy lead by the third quarter and then falling apart by making silly decisions and generally losing team cohesion and focus due to nerves, over-excitement or even over-confidence. A huge contributing factor is the opposing team recognising the opportunity and seizing on it.

Definition of Essendon's finals game v. Carlton in '99? I'd say so.

[This message has been edited by Bluey (edited 18 February 2000).]

 

[Dave]

Bluey,
how often have teams made big comebacks in the third quarter, only to be over-run in the last? You reckon three goals is a healthy lead in modern football? I'd say it's more like 8 the way most teams are capable of scoring these days.

BTW, my definition of choking is totally controlling a match, building a up a lead during the first half/three quarters and then being unable to finish it off, more like Essendon's effort against Richmond in '95 than Carlton last year,

Seeya

Dave

 

[Dan26]

Pessimistic, you make a good point when you say that Hawthorn thrashed the Eagles twice in 1994, despite clearly not being as good a team as the "top of the ladder " Eagles in 1994.

It just goes to show that anything can happen in a one-off match, and is not necessarily reflective of how good you are over the course of a season. I'd back the Eagles 1991 team against anyone. At their best, they would have beaten ANYONE. Awesome they were at times. I remember a match early in 1991 at Princes Park, where they thrashed Hawthorn by 82 points !!!

Bluey, as for the choking argument, I still don't see how a team can lose by one point (the smallest possible margin) and have them considered choking. Did Essendon play at their best ? No. Did they play well enough to win ? Yes, they did. Well enough to score 33 times to 24, and have more of the ball and more of the play. Luck does play a factor. Carlton won fair and square(it wasn't as if there was an umpiring decision or anything), but they were lucky to get over the line against a team which performed better on the day (and over the season too)

Reemeber, Carlton was the team which gave up a 4 goal half time lead (perhaps choking as you put it), as Essendon stormed all over them. In the last quarter BOTH teams played stellar football. Essendon kicked 4.2, with Lloyd kicking some freak goals amidst white-hot pressure, and the Blues kicked some great goals too. Carlton in the last quarter were playing at their absolute peak. Give them credit, c'mon. Essendon were also at their best (or close to it) in the second half.

Just becasue Carlton are average, doesn't mean they can't have a top game. Essendon should have won, admittedly, but a one point loss to a team that was playing at their best was a creditbalt performance. Essendon wasn't at their best, sure.........but they sure as hell weren't at their worst.

 

[The Dutchman!]

What about Collingwood 1970, 1977-1983? Pretty hopeless effort for that team to not have delivered at least one flag. Blows away the Doggies current rep for going out in straight sets.

I would say Geelong 89, 92, 94 and 95 but lets face it they played pretty awesome teams each time, particularly 89- 94.

Finally, my all time favourite choke: Carlton, 1981 second H&A match at Princes Park. 24+ points up with 10 minutes to go, Essendon by a point. Taken the blues a long time to pay that one back but last year's PF probably does the trick.

Dutchy

 

[Jaffa]

Collingwood should have been able to hang on in 1970 and 1977 and you can certainly make the claim that they choked although Carlton and North probably see it more as great comebacks.

They cetainly didn't choke in 79, 80, and 81 because they didn't really have the talent to even be there. I look at that period from 79-81 more as a great performance from Hafey in getting an average bunch of players in the position of being able to possibly win a flag.

In 1979 Carlton were 19-3 and clearly the best team. In 1980 they came from 5th spot when both Carlton and Geelong had better teams. In 1981, probably the worst Collingwood GF team ever, they were no match, although did lead at 3 Qtr time, for one of the all time great Carlton teams. The only reason Collingwood made the 81 GF was because Essendon lost to Geelong out at Waverley in Round 22. If Essendon had of got the double chance they certainly would've put Collingwood out of business as they clearly had their measure that year.

The same can be said of Geelong. They didn't have the necessary resources available to win those GF's. In 89, 92, 94 and 95 they were clearly the inferior team. As far as I'm concerned the only reason they made the 89 GF close was because half of Hawthorn's players were almost dead.

When talking about choking, you can only choke if you're clearly superior and you don't win.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Dan26]

1981 was an incredible year, actually.

mid season Hawthorn and Collingwood played in front of 92,935 people at WAVERLEY !!!!

Late in the season, in Round 22, Essendon and Geelong met at Waverley in front of 75,000.

Essendon lost and finishd the season 16-6 but could only finish fourth.

St.Kilda finished on top with 15-7 in 1997, so this shows how unlucky the Bombers were in 1981.

Essendon had won 15 games in a row beofre Round 22, taking their win loss record from 1-5 to 16-5. Then, afer losing to the Cats, they lost the Elimination final to Fitzroy.

Whoosh. All of a sudden, their season was over. Just like that. Amazing.

I have to agree about Collingowwods 1979,80, and 81 sides. They were big on heart but short on talent. 1979 would have been a great payback for 1970, as Carlton were clearly superior in 1979.

Collingowwd were still good enough in 1981 to have 17-5 in the H&A (17-4 before the last round, actually), so they had probably improved on the previous two years.

As for the Bombers, it was an opportunity missed, as they had Carltons measure in that area. Carlton simply could not beat Essendon in the early to mid 80's (Essendon won 10 in a row)

Given that Essendon won flags in 1984-85, if they pinched one in 1981, they could very well have gone on to win in 82, and 83 with the experience gained.

 

[apollo_creed]

PORT POWER (except in finals)!!!!!!!!

 

[Hawk_2004]

Dan if Essenscum's 1985 team was sooooooo good where were they in 1986?

 

[MOJOE]

Originally posted by apollo_creed
PORT POWER (except in finals)!!!!!!!!

You must be VERY bored to dig up this old thing (its pre-Essendon domination!!!).

 

[MOJOE]

Originally posted by Hawk_2004
Dan if Essenscum's 1985 team was sooooooo good where were they in 1986?

We were cut down by injuries. And we 'choked' in the wet to the Roys in the Elimination Final.

Should have been a 3-peat... Oh well! At least we got back-to-back against the Dawks!

 

[BulldogMike]

Originally posted by Bradley
Bulldogs in the 97 prelim .

And i would Say Liberatore kicked what was the match winning GOAL in the last minutes and the goal umpire dissallowed it giving it a point. Really the GF should have had the Doggies in it.

 

[Hawk_2004]

Originally posted by MOJOE
We were cut down by injuries. And we 'choked' in the wet to the Roys in the Elimination Final.

Should have been a 3-peat... Oh well! At least we got back-to-back against the Dawks!

At least we made the Grand Final and won in 1986, should've won 1987 and would've had a 4 peat

 

[windyhill]

Originally posted by Hawk_2004
, should've won 1987 and would've had a 4 peat

So, in other words, you choked.

 

[Count Zero]

I know that it is not afl, but the greatest chokers in GFs has to be Glenelg.

 

[MOJOE]

Originally posted by Hawk_2004
At least we made the Grand Final and won in 1986, should've won 1987 and would've had a 4 peat

Im so upset....

 

[Hawk_2004]

Originally posted by windyhill
So, in other words, you choked.

So in 1986 you choked as well

 

[Hawk_2004]

Originally posted by MOJOE
Im so upset....

You shouldn't be you, if old enough got to see the greatest team of all time.