Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

Should Carlton receive a priority pick?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 19.1%
  • No

    Votes: 296 80.9%

  • Total voters
    366
  • Poll closed .
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The bolded is extreme for Carlton (fifth occurrence in club history), but not exceptional by AFL standards. In the past decade Gold Coast has won 11 games under those conditions; GWS 9; Melbourne, Richmond, Collingwood & West Coast 1-2 each.
Who was in the other 10 players for Gold Coast? Not a bloke by the name of Gary Ablett was it?

Or was it blokes like Lobbe, Graham, Jones, Wright and so forth?

It really only supports my opinion that Carlton's development is behind where it should be. There's not a lot of evidence of a young unit being moulded, just individuals swimming against the tide.
We're a side of kids propped up by 2-3 good senior players and supported by potatoes, wracked by injury that has half put the cue in the rack.

Nothing with what I have seen this year surprises me with what I expected, aside from our defensive failing following on from last years very effective defensive unit. We're a shambles down back, after being as tight as a frogs bottom last year.

We've rotated 17 players down back with injuries to Docherty before the season started, and with ASOS, Rowe, Plowman, Marchbank, Jones, Byrne, Williamson, McReadie and even Weitering missing games this year due to injury. Coupled with an offensive game plan that we were not yet ready for, it hasnt been entirely surprising though,
 

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Ron The Bear

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Nothing with what I have seen this year surprises me with what I expected
Can't agree with that. The start of next season will mark four years since Silvagni's 66-game rebuild saw daylight. I don't think a one-win season should have been expected, nor should be accepted as a compulsory stage of the process.

I guess that's the difference between Carlton and Richmond supporters in a nutshell. The club hates it, but Richmond supporters would bring pressure to bear on the club.
 
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Can't agree with that. The start of next season will mark four years since Silvagni's 66-game rebuild saw daylight. I don't think a one-win season should have been expected, nor should be accepted as a compulsory stage of the process.

I guess that's the difference between Carlton and Richmond supporters in a nutshell. The club hates it, but Richmond supporters would bring pressure to bear on the club.
Not true. SOS didn't start the rebuild until the 2015 trade period. The end of next season will mark four years.
 

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Of course.

But I think we also have to remember that Bolton is one of his guys and he’s still friends with him so not really surprising that he’s going to go out to bat for a mate.
He has also been in that position. Doubt he is making stuff up to protect Bolton's job. The continuity part is factual, the injury part is factual. I don't think we need to be cynical just to stick to a line of thinking.
 

Monkey King

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I understand in your world, because you’ve said you don’t believe either, that we must believe that as fact. But your actions of arguing against anyone who doesn’t believe SOS suggest your words may be false.

Surely you must have a view on the issue? Or is it common for you to spend pages arguing an issue that you hold no views on?
I think you struggle with defining what’s been said and what’s not been said. Not surprising given you’re at odds with your own words and apparently now meant something other than you wrote in plan language.

I’m arguing against that which is based on the presupposition there was anything of substance requiring SOS to counterpoint. A belief that SOS was involved in sacking Trigg or that he wields inordinate power at the club is simply not valid enough reason to compel him into doing anything other than stating the status quo.

Which is my view on the issue - that a status quo exists i.e. presumed innocence, or laws of physics (in SOS’s case, his position as list manager) and that if someone wants to change the status quo they must provide evidence of such. This is not a groundbreaking idea, unless you’re living in the Middle Ages.
 
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Can't agree with that. The start of next season will mark four years since Silvagni's 66-game rebuild saw daylight. I don't think a one-win season should have been expected, nor should be accepted as a compulsory stage of the process.
Of course it was expected.

The plan was literally restart the list from new. Hit the reset button at ground zero. Spend three years building the list. Get in as many kids as we can, trading what we can out (Yarran, Gibbs, Menzel, Tuohy, Bell) for more draft picks/ more kids.

After this three year period, we were always going to be left with a list that was basically bunch of kids in their 1st, 2nd and 3rd years.

I.e pretty much what you saw yesterday.

Like I have pointed out a million times in this thread, we blew all our drafts from 2007-14. 5 out of more than 60 players are currently remaining on our list from that period that we drafted (Cripps, Curnow, Casboult, Graham, and one other who eludes me at present). We wasted 7 1st round draft picks on players or trades that are no longer with us. Seven.

Players from those 07-14 drafts should be forming the core of our players aged 22-30 (our senior core). But we simply dont have them on account of messing up the drafting over that period. They arent there to support the kids. We had to get B graders in for cheap just to provide some senior hardness to allow us to rebuild at all; the other option was to trade for good senior players, and that would have cost us in youth (good players tend to cost 1st round draft picks, and we were more interested in getting 1st round picks in, and trading senior players out).

We had no option other than to raze the joint to the ground (43 list changes in 3 years) and do a total list reset. The hole on our list from the 07-14 drafts was always going to bite hard whether we did this reset or not.

At least this way after we suffer through a couple of shit years, we will actually have a good core of players leading into the next decade (Dow, Fisher, Curnow, Obrien, SPS, McKay, Weitering, Marchbank, Plowman, Cripps, Pickett, Kennedy etc plus whomever we pick up this year).

Murphy, Kruezer, Simpson are just placeholders at the moment. It's sad, but that's how it is.
 
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I think you struggle with defining what’s been said and what’s not been said. Not surprising given you’re at odds with your own words and apparently now meant something other than you wrote in plan language.

I’m arguing against that which is based on the presupposition there was anything of substance requiring SOS to counterpoint. A belief that SOS was involved in sacking Trigg or that he wields inordinate power at the club is simply not valid enough reason to compel him into doing anything other than stating the status quo.

Which is my view on the issue - that a status quo exists i.e. presumed innocence, or laws of physics (in SOS’s case, his position as list manager) and that if someone wants to change the status quo they must provide evidence of such. This is not a groundbreaking idea, unless you’re living in the Middle Ages.
Well SOS felt a need to ‘counterpoint’ it.

So we’ve finally got it out there. You do believe SOS because it’s the “status quo” to believe that everything must be as it normally is.

Quit with the condescending bullshit. You post on S&R you can’t pull it off. It makes no sense to make the above claim but still get involved in rumour talk.

You’re a fanboi, who is talking down to people as a cover for it.
 

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The bolded is extreme for Carlton (fifth occurrence in club history), but not exceptional by AFL standards. In the past decade Gold Coast has won 11 games under those conditions; GWS 9; Melbourne, Richmond, Collingwood & West Coast 1-2 each.

Look, it wasn't their worst performance and I haven't been overly critical today. They couldn't have been expected to win (last year's excellent late season defeat of Hawthorn aside) and toughed the game out pretty well, all things considered. But it's disappointing that they didn't raise a yelp early; a competitive half before running out of legs could've been ticked off as a pass.

It really only supports my opinion that Carlton's development is behind where it should be. There's not a lot of evidence of a young unit being moulded, just individuals swimming against the tide.

I'll concede the list has been stretched and the players look like they're at the end of their tether, and it's probably best not to take too much notice of what happens in the last five games... as long as they don't completely implode. Bolton needs to somehow keep it fun.
Ronald, gold coast and gws had unprecedented full access to the best talent in the draft for 2 years . Of course they were going to win more games than the current carlton side with the amount of under 21's playing.
Geez, if carlton had picks 1,2,3,5,7,9 for 2 years running, even they couldn't stuff that up surely. And hence, it's also attract marquee players to the club.
The development isn't tracking behind , just need the cavalry to arrive....
 

Monkey King

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we’ve finally got it out there. You do believe SOS because it’s the “status quo” to believe that everything must be as it normally is.
Yes. I believe SOS is Carlton’s list manager. That is evident from the information available. I don’t think you’ll find anyone disagreeing with that. That’s the status quo. If someone believes his influence at Carlton extends beyond the that role, if they want to change the status quo, they need to provide something of substance to showing this to be the case. That is a reasonable standard to be held to.

Quit with the condescending bullshit. You post on S&R you can’t pull it off. It makes no sense to make the above claim but still get involved in rumour talk.

You’re a fanboi, who is talking down to people as a cover for it.
Lol. Mate you’re the only one calling another poster names and the like. All I’ve done is say that there are standards of critical thinking and fairness. And there are. Just try to publish an article in a reputable journal without meeting this standard and see what happens. Lashing out in response when people disassemble your method as inadequate will be as worthless a response in that forum it is in this one.
 

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Yes. I believe SOS is Carlton’s list manager. That is evident from the information available. I don’t think you’ll find anyone disagreeing with that. That’s the status quo. If someone believes his influence at Carlton extends beyond the that role, if they want to change the status quo, they need to provide something of substance to showing this to be the case. That is a reasonable standard to be held to.



Lol. Mate you’re the only one calling another poster names and the like. All I’ve done is say that there are standards of critical thinking and fairness. And there are. Just try to publish an article in a reputable journal without meeting this standard and see what happens. Lashing out in response when people disassemble your method as inadequate will be as worthless a response in that forum it is in this one.
Why are you actually on bigfooty?

You’ve tried to claim that people need to apply legal burdens of proof, physics law and now “reputable journal” standards. You’re in a thread that is discussing hypotheticals about SOS role, how well he has drafted and if Carlton will rise. None of those adheres to the above.

I mean based on your own reasoning, wouldn’t you be suggesting that on all available ‘evidence’ carlton are going nowhere?
 
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This is a new level of stupidity though. Bigfooty requires the same standards as getting a paper posted in a reputable journal...wow, I mean I know people say stupid things because of their love of football clubs, but that’s a new one.
 

Monkey King

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You’ve tried to claim that people need to apply legal burdens of proof, physics law and now “reputable journal” standards. You’re in a thread that is discussing hypotheticals about SOS role, how well he has drafted and if Carlton will rise. None of those adheres to the above.
I’ve stated that demanding a certain response from someone to prove a negative without a shred of evidence compelling them to do so is a very poor standard indeed. And that this standard is not mine; it is evident in all arenas that are geared towards separating fact from fiction.

I mean based on your own reasoning, wouldn’t you be suggesting that on all available ‘evidence’ carlton are going nowhere?
All available evidence would suggest that teams tend to rise up the ladder at some point after recruiting enough young talent and that there is an initial period where they languish. Would you like me to provide examples?

So based on this, I’d say Carlton at going somewhere.
 

Monkey King

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This is a new level of stupidity though. Bigfooty requires the same standards as getting a paper posted in a reputable journal...wow, I mean I know people say stupid things because of their love of football clubs, but that’s a new one.
I’ve been posting on BF for over 10 years and reading BF for 15 years. I come here for info, banter and to share opinion and challenge the opinions of others. There’s a lot of really good posters here who can defend their opinions with sound reasoning, stats or whatever else. And then there’s those who can’t ...
 

Monkey King

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This trade period Carlton must recruit a Sam Mitchell or a James Kelly or a Luke Hodge.
I’d love Sam Mitchell to join the Blues as an assistant coach. I think the most important thing Carlton need to do is sort out the medical room issues they’ve been having, nail the draft, re-gig the coaching staff and find some decent players to fill the 24-26 twilight zone on the playing list.
 
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I’ve stated that demanding a certain response from someone to prove a negative without a shred of evidence compelling them to do so is a very poor standard indeed. And that this standard is not mine; it is evident in all arenas that are geared towards separating fact from fiction.



All available evidence would suggest that teams tend to rise up the ladder at some point after recruiting enough young talent and that there is an initial period where they languish. Would you like me to provide examples?

So based on this, I’d say Carlton at going somewhere.
I think you may have wires crossed here. In no way am I discussing proving a negative. I’m suggesting that both sides can be discussed in a logical manner. No one should be asking you to prove Silvagni doesn’t have influence, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed if he does.

All available? I think there’s been plenty of failed rebuilds, as a Melbourne supporter I can vouch for that
 
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I’ve been posting on BF for over 10 years and reading BF for 15 years. I come here for info, banter and to share opinion and challenge the opinions of others. There’s a lot of really good posters here who can defend their opinions with sound reasoning, stats or whatever else. And then there’s those who can’t ...
I’d suggest on a football forum, you expecting journal grade evidence for something to be discussed is far too high. We would have about 3 threads if we expected that.
 

Ron The Bear

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Not true. SOS didn't start the rebuild until the 2015 trade period. The end of next season will mark four years.
Yeah, he couldn't actually do anything as list manager until the 2015 draft. But it was first mentioned here in April 2015.
...word leaked from new list manager Stephen Silvagni of what is reportedly being called internally, a "66 game rebuild plan".
 

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Why are you actually on bigfooty?

You’ve tried to claim that people need to apply legal burdens of proof, physics law and now “reputable journal” standards. You’re in a thread that is discussing hypotheticals about SOS role, how well he has drafted and if Carlton will rise. None of those adheres to the above.

I mean based on your own reasoning, wouldn’t you be suggesting that on all available ‘evidence’ carlton are going nowhere?
Do you think if you make big claims then you should provide more proof?

I think if I could magically change one big thing it would be that all users either qualify their claims as guesses or unsupported assumptions, or provide reasonable proof based on the size of the claim.

"To me, that player looked flat today," is a claim you can get away without providing a pile of evidence. "That player is definitely on the PEDs and got his cousin pregnant" would require a lot more proof.

It would make the place a heap easier to read and take part in.
 

Ron The Bear

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Ronald, gold coast and gws had unprecedented full access to the best talent in the draft for 2 years . Of course they were going to win more games than the current carlton side with the amount of under 21's playing.
Geez, if carlton had picks 1,2,3,5,7,9 for 2 years running, even they couldn't stuff that up surely. And hence, it's also attract marquee players to the club.
The development isn't tracking behind , just need the cavalry to arrive....
Maybe. I'll concede that maybe it's the type of draftees Carlton has gone for - talls and skinny kids - which is making things so painfully slow.
 
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