Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

Should Carlton receive a priority pick?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 19.1%
  • No

    Votes: 296 80.9%

  • Total voters
    366
  • Poll closed .

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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Sos tried to save face by picking up all the GWS rejects he brought to the club by giving them a chance at Carlton. Unfortunately most haven't worked out. Marchbank wasn't in the same boat as clearly was a good player and they traded hard for him.
The only ones SOS has actually targeted are Marchy, Plow and Kennedy. Pickett and Phillips would have been secondary targets. Pickett as an unproven, but injured player with potential to be really good, but very little outlay. Phillips as back up for Kreuzer, which we didn't really have, again as steak knives for very little.
Lamb, Sumner and Palmer were only ever salary dumps. We had list space and salary cap space to burn. GWS had guys that weren't getting a lot of games, but chewing up a chunk of salary cap and the squeeze was on. They needed to offload them, but couldn't afford to pay them out.
Marchbank, Plowman and Kennedy will be 10+ year players for us. If none of the others ever do/did anything in their time with us, those 3 are still worth the price we paid. Pickett was looking likely best 22 before he got injured and if he stays healthy, could be another 10+ year player.

Completely different to getting guys like Mayne, Wells, J White and Q Lynch over on big money.
 

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10571z

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The only ones SOS has actually targeted are Marchy, Plow and Kennedy. Pickett and Phillips would have been secondary targets. Pickett as an unproven, but injured player with potential to be really good, but very little outlay. Phillips as back up for Kreuzer, which we didn't really have, again as steak knives for very little.
Lamb, Sumner and Palmer were only ever salary dumps. We had list space and salary cap space to burn. GWS had guys that weren't getting a lot of games, but chewing up a chunk of salary cap and the squeeze was on. They needed to offload them, but couldn't afford to pay them out.
Marchbank, Plowman and Kennedy will be 10+ year players for us. If none of the others ever do/did anything in their time with us, those 3 are still worth the price we paid. Pickett was looking likely best 22 before he got injured and if he stays healthy, could be another 10+ year player.

Completely different to getting guys like Mayne, Wells, J White and Q Lynch over on big money.
What was in it for Carlton to take these players as salary dumps? Seems funny you'd play guys who were purely salary dumps
 
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What was in it for Carlton to take these players as salary dumps? Seems funny you'd play guys who were purely salary dumps
Very simply - by taking on these contracts, we were able to bring in our real targets cheaper than we probably otherwise would have been able to.

It has been a very reasonable strategy that has served us well.
 

10571z

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Very simply - by taking on these contracts, we were able to bring in our real targets cheaper than we probably otherwise would have been able to.

It has been a very reasonable strategy that has served us well.
What?

You gave up

No.28 together with No.77, 95 and Geelong's 2016 first-round pick (acquired in the Lachie Henderson trade) to Greater Western Sydney for Lachie Plowman, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips and Liam Sumner and pick No.8.

As a salary dump to help you get which real target?
 

Rich01

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You're making the assumption that they were even targets and that they were ever in contention for senior games.
Who else would've taken those spots? More kids? We wouldn't have been able to meet our TPP with just a bunch of kids on the list. They were there as back up. Seasoned bodies that could potentially come in if the kids needed to be rested or got injured. They served their purpose, now they're gone.
There's more to it than the layman's view you clearly have.
Rationalise it any way you want.

He’s played moneyball with the list. 3 have worked out, 3 are to be determined and 8 shouldn’t be at the club at the end of 2018. Those 8 players haven’t succeeded in developing the team or to the onfield results of a bottom five club over the past two years.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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What was in it for Carlton to take these players as salary dumps? Seems funny you'd play guys who were purely salary dumps
As Jeremias said.
Palmer played like 1 game. Sumner and Lamb have provided something on an interim basis, but neither are considered to be long term players (with one obviously already out the door). Some still argue that he adds some value as a defensive forward, but even they will freely admit that we will be in a better place when some of the kids overtake him.
We can't play all kids every week, or we get games like we had last year against Port, or last week against North, where we had something like 10 out of the 13 youngest players on the field.
Just because they weren't brought in as main targets, or intended to be best 22, doesn't mean they can't get games here and there, especially in a young side.

I get that it's the popular thing to bag Carlton, but views don't have to be one extreme or the other.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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What?

You gave up

No.28 together with No.77, 95 and Geelong's 2016 first-round pick (acquired in the Lachie Henderson trade) to Greater Western Sydney for Lachie Plowman, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips and Liam Sumner and pick No.8.

As a salary dump to help you get which real target?
You've literally laid it all out in front of yourself and you still need it spelled out?
Plowman was the target. Phillips secondary as a back up to Kreuzer. Lamb and Sumner were salary dumps.
We effectively got Plowman and Phillips for #28 (let's not worry about nothing picks like 77 and 95), while upgrading Geelong's pick #17 up to #8.
Who wouldn't do that in a heartbeat?
 
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What?

You gave up

No.28 together with No.77, 95 and Geelong's 2016 first-round pick (acquired in the Lachie Henderson trade) to Greater Western Sydney for Lachie Plowman, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips and Liam Sumner and pick No.8.

As a salary dump to help you get which real target?
Plowman wasn't a salary dump. He's one we wanted.

We absorbed three contracts - Lamb, Phillips and Sumner - which effectively allowed us to trade pick 28 for Plowman and both upgrade & bring forward a first round pick, which we used on McKay.

Plowman is not a star but has been a very good pick up, is a part of our leadership group, and has 150+ games written all over him.

At the time we needed depth in the ruck position and Phillips gave us exactly that, whilst making it an easy call to sever ties with Warnock who was on big money and giving us **** all. To be honest, given how poor Warnock was, that's a big tick even if Phillips sits in our reserves for the rest of his playing days.

Lamb has played some OK football over the past few years, but is a stop-gap and has since re-signed with the club on what would be heavily reduced terms. No problems there.

Sumner was a pure salary dump. Highly injury prone, would have been on reasonable coin and wasn't anywhere near GWS' best side, and has obviously since been delisted by Carlton as well.

It was an absolute no-brainer for us at the time and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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Rationalise it any way you want.

He’s played moneyball with the list. 3 have worked out, 3 are to be determined and 8 shouldn’t be at the club at the end of 2018. Those 8 players haven’t succeeded in developing the team or to the onfield results of a bottom five club over the past two years.
You're failing to understand the reasoning for bringing some of those players in in the first place.
If we hadn't taken 3-4 of those 8 (that we didn't necessarily want in the first place), we either wouldn't have had 2-3 of the others, or would've paid a lot more for them.
You can try and turn it into a negative as much as you want, but it was a necessary evil with the state of our list and the turnover of players.
 

RudyBlue

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Sos tried to save face by picking up all the GWS rejects he brought to the club by giving them a chance at Carlton. Unfortunately most haven't worked out. Marchbank wasn't in the same boat as clearly was a good player and they traded hard for him.
It's a nice conspiracy, but I'm not sure we would've hit 95% of the salary cap without them.
 

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Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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Pretty sure the bombers were taking the piss
Dodoro and SOS are mates. He either did it as a favour for SOS so it looked like another team wanted him, or he was just trying to keep SOS honest so we didn't get him for pick 70+.
Regardless, he's tracking about as well as Hipwood statistically. Not sure what kind of player he will end up being, or how long he stays in the system, but at 20yo and with only around 20 games to his name, I'm certainly not writing him off this early.
 

Rich01

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You're failing to understand the reasoning for bringing some of those players in in the first place.
If we hadn't taken 3-4 of those 8 (that we didn't necessarily want in the first place), we either wouldn't have had 2-3 of the others, or would've paid a lot more for them.
You can try and turn it into a negative as much as you want, but it was a necessary evil with the state of our list and the turnover of players.
The fact that it’s a negative is that I’m stating the facts of the recycled pickups.

14 recycled in from SOS and 8 should be gone within three years. They didn’t improve the results of the team in the short term and obviously won’t be there long term.

Would you have had to pay more than pick 28 just for Plowman though? If I remember correctly, Carlton supporters were ecstatic with this trade at the time thinking that they had 3-4 potential long term players. At the time I thought SOS had done extremely well to get four youngsters.

Palmer is the only one on that list who you had to take to get Kennedy and Pickett.

What about Gorringe? Kerridge? Lobbe? Smedts?

But there’s no doubt SOS would have had higher expectations of those 8 than what they achieved at Carlton.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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I’d agree trading second round picks for 3-4 recycled players in the hope one comes good isn’t a good strategy. You miss out on some good draft prospects
This is what people always seem to misunderstand. Who else would we have drafted? How many more kids can you carry?
During SOS's time, we have still taken 16 kids in the draft, 1 in preseason draft and 9 on the rookie list, including cat B.
Nobody is perfect and all list managers will make mistakes, but I think he's done a pretty good job of balancing between hitting the draft, bringing in DFA and trading, given where we were coming from.
 

HumanMeatball

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This is what people always seem to misunderstand. Who else would we have drafted? How many more kids can you carry?
During SOS's time, we have still taken 16 kids in the draft, 1 in preseason draft and 9 on the rookie list, including cat B.
Nobody is perfect and all list managers will make mistakes, but I think he's done a pretty good job of balancing between hitting the draft, bringing in DFA and trading, given where we were coming from.
Richmond used to do the same shit taking the petards and using the rookie draft to get recycled players in, you miss out on gems such as the Kane Lambert’s ect
 

Rich01

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There is also no doubt you've completely misunderstood why they were recruited to the club in the first place.
Facts are he missed on 8 of 14 if you are judging by their short term impact of impacting the teams results. And long term impact seeing they probably won’t be on a list in 2019.

Still waiting to hear which players other than Palmer were absolutely required to get the 3 decent players to the club.

I’m not questioning him trading guys in for peanuts. Its a solid strategy considering where your list was at. It’s just evident he brought the wrong guys in over 50% of the time.

Results show he’s far from a master trader and it’s too early to tell on his drafting.
 
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Facts are he missed on 8 of 14 if you are judging by their short term impact of impacting the teams results.
And why would anyone judge them on that, given they were traded in during the very early stages of a complete rebuild?

Still waiting to hear which players other than Palmer were absolutely required to get the 3 decent players to the club.
Sumner and to a lesser extent Lamb and Phillips were brought in to allow a discount on Plowman.

Palmer and to a lesser extent Pickett were brought in to allow a discount on Marchbank.

Simple.

I’m not questioning him trading guys in for peanuts. Its a solid strategy considering where your list was at. It’s just evident he brought the wrong guys in over 50% of the time.
Did he bring in the wrong guys? Who should he have recruited instead?

Results show he’s far from a master trader and it’s too early to tell on his drafting.
We still have a long way to go, but he has done very well on both fronts.

I do accept that it is difficult to acknowledge that without fully understanding the rationale behind each move he has made.
 

Rich01

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Sumner and to a lesser extent Lamb and Phillips were brought in to allow a discount on Plowman.
At the time of the trade many Carlton fans thought they had 3-4 promising long term players that were rated highly as juniors and showed good potential. Not the fact they were dumped on the list for Plowman.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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Facts are he missed on 8 of 14 if you are judging by their short term impact of impacting the teams results. And long term impact seeing they probably won’t be on a list in 2019.

Still waiting to hear which players other than Palmer were absolutely required to get the 3 decent players to the club.

I’m not questioning him trading guys in for peanuts. Its a solid strategy considering where your list was at. It’s just evident he brought the wrong guys in over 50% of the time.

Results show he’s far from a master trader and it’s too early to tell on his drafting.
Let's just pretend that I've got a Ferrari that I'm happy to trade to you for your Commodore. The only condition is, you also have to take my rusty 120Y and pay the rego and insurance on it. If you don't take the Datsun, you don't get the Ferrari. You've got the cash sitting there for the rego and insurance, and an extra spot under the carport for the 120Y, so there's nothing stopping you, even though you don't need, or want the 120Y. You might take the 120Y for a spin every now and then. Maybe the Ferrari isn't exactly practical all the time, or you need to teach your kid how to drive.

Do you really care what happens to the 120Y after the insurance and rego has run out? Do your mates think you're a genius for trading a Commodore for a Ferrari? Do they think you're an idiot for trading your Commodore for a 120Y? Or do they think you have a 50% hit rate on trading an average car for a good/bad car?

This analogy might be a bit of an exaggeration on our current situation, but the philosophy is the same.
 
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At the time of the trade many Carlton fans thought they had 3-4 promising long term players that were rated highly as juniors and showed good potential. Not the fact they were dumped on the list for Plowman.
Great. I'm sure I can dig up plenty of examples over the journey where Richmond supporters have been wrong too.

Not sure it's entirely relevant to this argument though.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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At the time of the trade many Carlton fans thought they had 3-4 promising long term players that were rated highly as juniors and showed good potential. Not the fact they were dumped on the list for Plowman.
We knew exactly why they were coming, but you can still hope that they might get their career back on track and fulfil their potential.

A lot of Richmond supporters said that Yarran wasn't worth a 1st round pick, but proceeded to tell us how much of a steal they got when you picked him up for #19.
 

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At the time of the trade many Carlton fans thought they had 3-4 promising long term players that were rated highly as juniors and showed good potential. Not the fact they were dumped on the list for Plowman.
You would assume that with getting recent former first-round picks like Sumner, Jaksch and Pickett, the idea would be that they would also develop into good players when given more opportunity at Carlton. It's a hindsight call to claim them merely as "a means to an end" for getting someone else. The Blues surely expected these guys would amount to more than just delisting fodder.

That those guys didn't work out is fine, because you never know unless you have a go. I don't think it's going to cost them that dearly in the lonh term, but unless he thought he knew more or knew better than GWS (hence the claims of "trading with his ego") perhaps SOS should have thought twice about why GWS were willing to basically give away a bunch of recent former first-round picks (ergo, the Giants knew they'd likely never become stars or even long-term AFL footballers).
 

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SOS Trades and Free Agents:

Wins- Wright, Plowman, Marchbank.

Jury Out- Kennedy, Lang, Pickett.

Losses - Dan Gorringe, Lamb, Phillips, Sumner, Kerridge, Smedts, Palmer, Lobbe

3 guys who will be part of the team as it rebuilds, with another three that are also likely as contributors moving forward.

8 others who have been traded in and most likely delisted within 3 years.

For so many trades that’s nothing to write home about.
In a way, I tend to compare their progress to us. We made finals in Dimma's 4th year at the club but the early years were done rebuilding in diluted draft pools as the expansion teams got access to many of the best young talents. As a result, we had to obviously look to top up players to play a role while young players got games under their belts. Recall recycled guys like Brad Miller, Tom Hislop, Adam Maric, Ricky Petterd, Sam Lonergan, Orren (Big O) Stephenson etc all being picked up at no cost (i.e all were delisted players given a life line).

When Dimma came aboard in 2010, we finished 15th (16 team league), then 12th (17 team league) in 2011, 12th again (18 team league) in 2012 and then 5th in 2013

Under Bolton, so far they have finished 14th (2016) and 16th (2017). I tend to think Carlton should make finals ahead of what we managed given they have had access to more high end draft picks and no diluted draft pools courtesy of expansion sides in the time SOS has been at the club (appointed Dec 2014). It seems Carlton have also similarly tried to bring ready made players from other clubs to speed up the rebuilding while not trying to retain high draft picks. I guess the point of difference is quite a few of the Carlton acquisitions have been done at the trade table where the above players we picked up were rookie and preseason draft picks I believe (though we picked up a few mature age players at trade like Aaron Edwards).

Time will tell if it works for them though I don't think there is a tried and tested, one size fits all solution template. Every club is different with different sets of circumstances and variables.
 
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