No Oppo Supporters The ASADA Thread... from a Tiger perspective

[CoggaRules]

Sharapova got the full two years, and immediately the Aussies are tut tutting and calling her a drug cheat, after all she is russian

The ITF tribunal said she didnt take them intentionally and asked for the mandatory 4 years to be downgraded to 2...now she isnt happy with the 2 and is going to appeal and Nike is on her side
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/maria-sharapova-to-appeal-drugs-ban/3042463/

 

[fleabitten]

Firstly you can't suspend them from the finals without them agreeing. If they didn't, they would have got an injunctionz , and that would have delayed any sanction till after finals.

If the AFL and the other 17 clubs wanted them out of finals, they'd be out of finals. If they went the route of trying to force their way in through legal means, then they could expect to be rightly smashed by any subsequent punishments. It shouldn't have been something negotiated with Essendon, but negotiated with the other 17 clubs.

Secondly, it wouldn't be 10 years. 1-2 years of no income would mean all bare skeleton staff would be sacked. The list would only be the 12 sanctioned players. Members and sponsors would vacate during the off period, and would take years to come back. You effectively take a club that currently subsidizes like likes of norf and co, and turn them into a club that will need afl charity for 20+ years

I don't agree that they'd be reliant on charity for two decades, but even if they were, so what? That's like giving a murderer a suspended sentence because the proper punishment would cause him too much hardship. They should have thought about that before they committed the crime. No sympathy.

We have already lost the blues as a major cash generator for the league. Lose efc and it basically leaves the pies and hawks as the sole Vic financial powerhouses, and six Melbourne clubs and 4/northern state clubs dependant upon their welfare

The Blues are well on their way back as a cash generator. Their fans didn't change teams and once they have a contender, they'll be back. Weird that you wouldn't include us as well. Tigers are also returning to powerhouse status despite the on-field disappointments.

I want a strong league, where clubs can compete and stand on their own. Losing Carlton and essendon helps keep pushing us to a have and have nots world

I want a fair league where teams that intentionally cheat are appropriately punished. I have no sympathy for them. We've suffered for three decades for being innocently incompetent, why should Essendon get off easier for cheating incompetently?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If the AFL and the other 17 clubs wanted them out of finals, they'd be out of finals. If they went the route of trying to force their way in through legal means, then they could expect to be rightly smashed by any subsequent punishments. It shouldn't have been something negotiated with Essendon, but negotiated with the other 17 clubs.



I don't agree that they'd be reliant on charity for two decades, but even if they were, so what? That's like giving a murderer a suspended sentence because the proper punishment would cause him too much hardship. They should have thought about that before they committed the crime. No sympathy.



The Blues are well on their way back as a cash generator. Their fans didn't change teams and once they have a contender, they'll be back. Weird that you wouldn't include us as well. Tigers are also returning to powerhouse status despite the on-field disappointments.



I want a fair league where teams that intentionally cheat are appropriately punished. I have no sympathy for them. We've suffered for three decades for being innocently incompetent, why should Essendon get off easier for cheating incompetently?

You mean how the clubs override the dunkley injunction? Or the Hall injunction?

Also how do clubs override a court issued injunction? Do the 17 clubs have more power than the Victorian courts?

 

[fleabitten]

You mean how the clubs override the dunkley injunction? Or the Hall injunction?

Also how do clubs override a court issued injunction? Do the 17 clubs have more power than the Victorian courts?

If the AFL and the other 17 clubs all wanted Essendon out of finals, they would be mad to shut the season down with legal action. They would be smashed to pieces by the league, the media, every oppo fan (except you) and a fair portion of their own. Without AFL and AFL-backed media support, they would be truly ****ed.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If the AFL and the other 17 clubs all wanted Essendon out of finals, they would be mad to shut the season down with legal action. They would be smashed to pieces by the league, the media, every oppo fan (except you) and a fair portion of their own. Without AFL and AFL-backed media support, they would be truly stuffed.

Again, how would the clubs and the afl ignore or override a court injunction?

Saying "coz the fans would be pissed" isn't a way to overturn a court instruction

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Interesting to see that Maria Sharapova isn't getting the #sobrave treatment by the media. I thought her being hot would cancel out the fact that she's a commie Russian.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Interesting to see that Maria Sharapova isn't getting the #sobrave treatment by the media. I thought her being hot would cancel out the fact that she's a commie Russian.

She is getting the poor maria treatment

Sponsors are sticking by her
Fed is copping smack for saying she should have been banned longer

 

[fleabitten]

Again, how would the clubs and the afl ignore or override a court injunction?

Saying "coz the fans would be pissed" isn't a way to overturn a court instruction

If Essendon really went to court to force themselves into the finals, then so be it. Let them play finals, with the understanding that there will be no mercy from the AFL or the media from that point on. You want to take on the whole league, we'll make sure you pay the maximum price for your cheating and that every detail of your treachery is publicly exposed.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If Essendon really went to court to force themselves into the finals, then so be it. Let them play finals, with the understanding that there will be no mercy from the AFL or the media from that point on. You want to take on the whole league, we'll make sure you pay the maximum price for your cheating and that every detail of your treachery is publicly exposed.

Dude, that's what I've been saying

If they were sanctioned by CA's there would have been no holding back

 

[Helen Wheels]

Interesting to see that Maria Sharapova isn't getting the #sobrave treatment by the media. I thought her being hot would cancel out the fact that she's a commie Russian.

That screaming cancels out everything. Can't watch her matches.

 

[RockJobster0312]

That screaming cancels out everything. Can't watch her matches.

It's a lot easier to bear when you're a male. You just close your eyes and imagine...

 

[fleabitten]

Dude, that's what I've been saying

If they were sanctioned by CA's there would have been no holding back

Okay, so we almost agree. It's just that I think the AFL had to try to save the 2013 finals from becoming a farce (as much as was possible), so they did the right thing by forcing Essendon out. The excuse used was "governance", so there was still more punishment due when they were found guilty of doping. But instead of telling Essendon how it would go down, they appear to have struck some deal where the "governance" penalties would suffice as the club's doping penalties (if the club agreed not to contest their removal from finals).

As far as I understand your position, you think it should have been business as usual until the guilty verdict for doping? So they would have been playing as usual from 2013 to 2015, potentially asterisking 4 AFL seasons by the time the verdict was in. And then you think the punishment shouldn't be so tough as to cripple them?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Okay, so we almost agree. It's just that I think the AFL had to try to save the 2013 finals from becoming a farce (as much as was possible), so they did the right thing by forcing Essendon out. ThThey was "governance", so there was still more punishment due when they were found guilty of doping. But instead of telling Essendon how it would go down, they appear to have struck some deal where the "governance" penalties would suffice as the club's doping penalties (if the club agreed not to contest their removal from finals).

As far as I understand your position, you think it should have been business as usual until the guilty verdict for doping? So they would have been playing as usual from 2013 to 2015, potentially asterisking 4 AFL seasons by the time the verdict was in. And then you think the punishment shouldn't be so tough as to cripple them?

Not quite

I don't want efc destroyed by sanctions, but that should mean s**t

The prob is that's how the afl felt, and that's why they offered efc the deal .

The bigger issue is its also how asada felt

They said don't use the interim report for prosecution , and did nothing when the afl did. They also never charged any official outside dank.

Tells me they either lacked confidence in the case against the officials, or they bowed to afl pressure

The fact the club and officials are in the clear now, while players are suspended for a program the club ran is a crock

Concerns about consequences to the league should never have influenced the running of this case, but it did at every turn

The interim report
The governance charge
The three day audit of 17 clubs
The avoidance of bock
The failure to fully investigate the dees
The failure to have an independent and transparent investigation
The failure to sanction weapon, Reid, or Corcoran

If things were processed properly, they would have played 2013, and ultimately paid a much bigger price in the end

I'd love to say this will change, but given bock was only reinvestigated thanks to media pressure, I'm not holding my breathe

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Not saying the players should have gotten off btw

By failing to disclose any legal supp use 30 times to asada, they lost all ability to claim any deniability at all

 

[SunshineBoy]

Interesting to see that Maria Sharapova isn't getting the #sobrave treatment by the media. I thought her being hot would cancel out the fact that she's a commie Russian.

Russians are drug cheats , you know that, our little Aussie battlers have been framed

 

[SunshineBoy]

Not quite

I don't want efc destroyed by sanctions, but that should mean s**t

The prob is that's how the afl felt, and that's why they offered efc the deal .

The bigger issue is its also how asada felt

They said don't use the interim report for prosecution , and did nothing when the afl did. They also never charged any official outside dank.

Tells me they either lacked confidence in the case against the officials, or they bowed to afl pressure

The fact the club and officials are in the clear now, while players are suspended for a program the club ran is a crock

Concerns about consequences to the league should never have influenced the running of this case, but it did at every turn

The interim report
The governance charge
The three day audit of 17 clubs
The avoidance of bock
The failure to fully investigate the dees
The failure to have an independent and transparent investigation
The failure to sanction weapon, Reid, or Corcoran

If things were processed properly, they would have played 2013, and ultimately paid a much bigger price in the end

I'd love to say this will change, but given bock was only reinvestigated thanks to media pressure, I'm not holding my breathe

ASADA was and still is cowed by the afl, they have th dirt, there ha never been a case with do much evidence gathered and not prosecuted, it's easier to go after an individual athlete than a competition,

The disgust by athletes in the inaction by ASADA and the afl in this is palpable, but it goes to to Australia being perceived to be whiter than white even we are now top ten in the world for peds convictions thanks to that upstanding competition called the afl.

Read my signature, Australia wins gold medals in indignation when it comes to drug cheats yet we don't police our own back yard.

Pat cash mr clean himself called Maria a Russian drug cheat with the emphasis on Russian, yet when we get caught , it's I drank too many coffees.

Who really believes that the cyclist ate contaminated meat? Who went into bat for him? The Australian national cycling body. Give me a break , cycling is a dopers paradise yet Australians eat tainted meat.

After they retire oh I got caught.

Esseindon as a club should have got two years, the players should have got two years, the coaching should have got life, but not in this afl we will warn you and we will protect you

 

[SunshineBoy]

Not saying the players should have gotten off btw

By failing to disclose any legal supp use 30 times to asada, they lost all ability to claim any deniability at all

The only shame is the appeals part of CAS can't hand down a harsher penalty, then watch Essendon squeal.

These cheats are going to get a benefit from taking peds that no other club will get,

Stick that up you're arse fair minded australia

 

[tigerdan]

Sorry, but you are kidding yourself if you think the penalties for governance were fair

Both Adelaide and Carlton broke the draft rules

At the governance hearing, the only issue at hand was having shitty paperwork. If they had the ped charge, everything would have been different, and I agree the sanction should have been amped up

This is the point though. The afl wanted to appease people like yourself by getting them out of the finals. To do this, they could only charge with what they had to the time. To make it strong enough to ban finals though, they had to get efc to plea guilty. And the only way that was happening was if this was the first and only club sanction

The afl made a deal to make you happy, and it worked. Back then anyway. As for now, well its too late to backtrack, so they don't care.

Look mate if you are going to be sanctimonious take it to the htb and I can be just as sanctimonious as you are. Maybe we can revisit posts and see which one of us was kidding themselves - for the past three years.

For someone who criticised another poster for 'knowing' that essendon took drugs you don't mind 'knowing' yourself what went on behind closed doors when it suits your argument. You are being either deliberately disingenuous or blatantly hypocritical.

All I want is some honesty and admission of guilt from the afl and essendon and an acknowledgement that this debacle has set some fairly dubious precedents. By all means I'm happy to wait until the appeal is exhausted.

As for wanting essendon to be treated leniently because they 'subsidise the likes of north', well that's your right but flies in the face of most people's principles of justice.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Look mate if you are going to be sanctimonious take it to the htb and I can be just as sanctimonious as you are. Maybe we can revisit posts and see which one of us was kidding themselves - for the past three years.

For someone who criticised another poster for 'knowing' that essendon took drugs you don't mind 'knowing' yourself what went on behind closed doors when it suits your argument. You are being either deliberately disingenuous or blatantly hypocritical.

All I want is some honesty and admission of guilt from the afl and essendon and an acknowledgement that this debacle has set some fairly dubious precedents. By all means I'm happy to wait until the appeal is exhausted.

As for wanting essendon to be treated leniently because they 'subsidise the likes of north', well that's your right but flies in the face of most people's principles of justice.

Read the rest of my posts

I said even if I don't want the league effected by the consequences of any sanction, those consequences should have no bearing on determining what sanctions are applied

The reason for the governance charge and efc and all but one of its officials not being charged is because the process was corrupted to limit the damage to as few players as possible

And yes, go back and read my posts. From the start I wanted an independent and transparent investigation, and if guilty I wanted the club and its officials to receive the most severe part of any sanction as they were primarily responsible for any violation

 

[SunshineBoy]

http://www.sen.com.au/news/afl/06-16/dons-can-t-be-rewarded-justin-quill#4o4sfb0vesBV4hl4.97

some learned people and include david Koch in this are starting to see logic about the cheats being rewarded.....the AFL will probably give them a priority Pick as well rewarded for cheating, how do you feel about this Fair Minded Australians?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

http://www.sen.com.au/news/afl/06-16/dons-can-t-be-rewarded-justin-quill#4o4sfb0vesBV4hl4.97

some learned people and include david Koch in this are starting to see logic about the cheats being rewarded.....the AFL will probably give them a priority Pick as well rewarded for cheating, how do you feel about this Fair Minded Australians?

As a lawyer he should know however as bad as it is with the afl corrupting the draft process by giving away new draft picks, how ****ed would it be if they start taking them away outside of direct tribunal sanctions?

 

[I Rock]

http://www.sen.com.au/news/afl/06-16/dons-can-t-be-rewarded-justin-quill#4o4sfb0vesBV4hl4.97

some learned people and include david Koch in this are starting to see logic about the cheats being rewarded.....the AFL will probably give them a priority Pick as well rewarded for cheating, how do you feel about this Fair Minded Australians?

If the AFL are adamant that Essendon have already received punishment (although they never "officially got done for cheating so different argument), then the Club has already received punishment. It may not be popular amongst some, however the Club can't keep on getting punished. If they finish last this year, then by the way the system works they get pick 1. I have no issue with that, I have issue with the AFL constant comments of "we need to make Essendon great again". No "we" don't, we don't have to do anything beyond what is reasonable by the rules and stipulations of the code. Anything beyond that, * the cheating campaigners.

 

[tigs2010]

Interesting to see that Maria Sharapova isn't getting the #sobrave treatment by the media. I thought her being hot would cancel out the fact that she's a commie Russian.

No one likes her

 

[fleabitten]

If they get to keep their first pick, I'm done. Will continue to watch the Tigers from the pub (* Foxtel), but I won't renew our family membership. Would be an absolute joke to reward them for being punished, when the punishment was already piss weak to begin with, despite them doing everything possible to weasel out of it from day one.

 

[SunshineBoy]

As a lawyer he should know however as bad as it is with the afl corrupting the draft process by giving away new draft picks, how stuffed would it be if they start taking them away outside of direct tribunal sanctions?

This is a moral question not a legal one morally they should not be rewarded by cheating as the article says they get twelve players back with those twelve playing there is no way they finish last

These are extraordinary times