The Ashes. Fourth Test Australia v England @ The SCG 5-9 January

Who will win?

  • Australia

    Votes: 62 84.9%
  • England

    Votes: 11 15.1%

  • Total voters
    73
  • Poll closed .

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Voice of the G

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Pucvoski isn't proven either, he has a good FC record but he plays for the same team as Harris and the MCG has been a road.

Where we when the 3rd test was played in Melbourne.
Nobody saw the Boland train coming.

Sadly he won't be anything more than a flash in the pan.

Richardson is the one who should be invested in for the future.

A big call.
 

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Adelaide Hawk

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Pre or post back injury?

Either. Lillee had a simple philosophy, you can't take wickets if you're not bowling. I remember Lillee bowling 23 eight ball overs on the trot against Pakistan at the SCG. Another time at Adelaide Oval, Thomson had been injured in the 1st innings when he collided with Alan Turner, Gary Gilmour had yet another episode of gout, leaving Lillee as our sole fast bowler. He and O'Keeffe bowled in tandem most of the innings, Lillee bowled 47.7 eight ball overs and took 5 wickets. Lillee and O'Keeffe bowled 100.7 overs out of 132.7. Couldn't see any of today's micro-managed quicks putting their hand up like Lillee did.
 

PAFCsince1870

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Either. Lillee had a simple philosophy, you can't take wickets if you're not bowling. I remember Lillee bowling 23 eight ball overs on the trot against Pakistan at the SCG. Another time at Adelaide Oval, Thomson had been injured in the 1st innings when he collided with Alan Turner, Gary Gilmour had yet another episode of gout, leaving Lillee as our sole fast bowler. He and O'Keeffe bowled in tandem most of the innings, Lillee bowled 47.7 eight ball overs and took 5 wickets. Lillee and O'Keeffe bowled 100.7 overs out of 132.7. Couldn't see any of today's micro-managed quicks putting their hand up like Lillee did.

Dennis also only managed 70 tests over a 13 year career so let's not pretend he was the beacon of player management.
 

DaRick

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While this is quite a good refutation of the point, it's not a clean comparison to compare moving Clarke - who could not pull towards the end of his career square of the wicket due to back issues, and was inside the best 3 players of spin I've ever seen - from 5 to 3 to moving Labuschagne from 3 to 2. Moving from 5 to 3 for Clarke would've been making the move because 'a captain cannot bat at 5' or some other like nonsense; as though making runs at 5 is less valuable than making the same runs at 3. Runs are runs. Given the situations Marnus finds himself batting in, he's a third opener anyway.

Even if one of the openers is useless, they've at least chewed up some deliveries - Marnus being up against Mark Wood, with a new ball, would be a frightening prospect. Also, you have to consider team chemistry - does Warner bat more effectively with Marnus than his current opener? The opening partnership isn't called that without a reason.

Yes granted, I've called for Khawaja to open, but 1) he's had past success there, 2) he scored 2 100's in the game just gone and 3) he's much more likely to survive in the subcontinent opening than Harris is and 4) he is technically superior to Harris and is likely to score more there for that reason alone.

Also, objectively, Harris deserved to go. From what I've heard, Burns/Warner were close, but Harris/Warner didn't click as well. It'd be nice to throw a debut to Hunt or Street, but blooding them in the subcontinent? Perhaps not the best idea.

I see Usman as a 1-year stop gap (2 is pushing it), giving Hunt/Street time to develop.

Opening hides a weakness to spin better than batting anywhere lower than 3 does. Yes, said weakness is hypothetical.

Not in Khawaja's case, though I cannot rule out the possibility that he's spent a lot of time practicing and come back as Matthew Hayden-lite, but could you take the risk? Only when seeing him in Indian tour games could you guess?
 

The Passenger

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Dennis also only managed 70 tests over a 13 year career so let's not pretend he was the beacon of player management.

Australia played 117 tests during the span of Lillee's career, but of the 47 he missed at least half were due to World Series Cricket.

I can't be assed counting line by line but WSC was early 1977 to late 1979 so there's about 25 to 30 tests Lillee missed. He also missed 11 due to his back injury. - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...eam=2;template=results;type=team;view=results

There's no doubt management of fast bowlers is significantly different today. A look at the most overs bowled by quick bowlers in an innings shows that no bowler from 2000 or beyond appears till Mervyn Dillon (95th and 96th), Andrew Flintoff (97th) and Zaheer Khan (98th).

I'd have no problem with this modern day management of quick bowlers if we were seeing a reduction in injuries but that hasn't ever happened. They've been as bad as ever, if not worse. Admittedly we seem to be doing better now than we were around the mid part (or maybe just a bit before) of the 2010's. That may also just be a case of our main bowlers (Cummins, Starc, Haze) coming into an age where their bodies are better developed physically.

 

Gethelred

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Even if one of the openers is useless, they've at least chewed up some deliveries - Marnus being up against Mark Wood, with a new ball, would be a frightening prospect. Also, you have to consider team chemistry - does Warner bat more effectively with Marnus than his current opener? The opening partnership isn't called that without a reason.

Yes granted, I've called for Khawaja to open, but 1) he's had past success there, 2) he scored 2 100's in the game just gone and 3) he's much more likely to survive in the subcontinent opening than Harris is and 4) he is technically superior to Harris and is likely to score more there for that reason alone.

Also, objectively, Harris deserved to go. From what I've heard, Burns/Warner were close, but Harris/Warner didn't click as well. It'd be nice to throw a debut to Hunt or Street, but blooding them in the subcontinent? Perhaps not the best idea.

I see Usman as a 1-year stop gap (2 is pushing it), giving Hunt/Street time to develop.
I see it as not finding one opener, but two. Because we're not just finding someone to open opposite Warner, but someone to open for him.

Warner's form this year while a vast improvement on last summer is a lot of whipped cream on a rather ordinary carrot cake. He's not seeing the ball nearly as well as he has in the past, and he's genuinely troubled by pace where he hasn't been in the past. Wood hit him with a ball in Brisbane because he couldn't get the bat there in time; this, a bloke with the best eyes of world cricket over the past 10 years, didn't pick the ball up quickly enough.

We don't just need to solve the issue in the middle order, but end the succession plan post Warner/Rogers. We have two problems, not one.
Not in Khawaja's case, though I cannot rule out the possibility that he's spent a lot of time practicing and come back as Matthew Hayden-lite, but could you take the risk? Only when seeing him in Indian tour games could you guess?
Here's the thing: I cannot ever recall watching Khawaja in his first incarnation look as comfortable at the crease as he was in Sydney. He played like a man comfortable. Batting above 3 - despite the fact that I've advocated him opening for the last 3 years too - he goes out there tense, stressed, the world on his shoulders.

It's just one test, but maybe before we shift him up - in your own words, diluting a strength to cover a weakness - to open let's just leave him where he's scored consecutive centuries.
 

Adelaide Hawk

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Dennis also only managed 70 tests over a 13 year career so let's not pretend he was the beacon of player management.

Sorry, but that's one of the most uneducated comments I've read on this forum. While he was "playing only 70 Tests", he was recuperating from a back injury that would would have ended the careers of most others. It was his propensity for hard work that made his comeback possible.

He also played another 14 Supertests in WSC. While he was doing all that, he was playing a lot of Sheffield Shield cricket, something today's bowlers don't do.

Are you going to criticize Pat Cummins for only playing 37 Tests in 11 seasons as well? BTW, Lillee played 75 Sheffield Shield matches, Cummins has played 9. I admire Cummins greatly, I'm not criticizing him, just using him as a comparison between the two eras of cricket.
 

CliffMcTainshaw

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Nobody saw the Boland train coming.

Sadly he won't be anything more than a flash in the pan.

Richardson is the one who should be invested in for the future.
Definitely has talent, but he's going to have to get on the ground a lot more regularly, otherwise he's going to have a similar career to Bruce Reid.
 
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CliffMcTainshaw

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Dennis also only managed 70 tests over a 13 year career so let's not pretend he was the beacon of player management.
He crapped on Bradman then, only 52 tests in 20 years. Things are different nowadays with the number of nations playing Test cricket and the numbers of Tests played by Australia each year. Lillie didn't play in 72-72 or 73-74 and missed 1977 in England before playing 2 years with World Series. For the years he did play he hardly missed a game.
 

anchor man

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He will plateau out into the peloton as every bowler (and batsmen bar Bradman) has in the history of test cricket.

But there's no reason he won't be a very dependable bowler over the next few years, particularly in England 2023. His biggest challenge will be holding onto his spot when everyone is fit and firing.

I think the selectors are totally correct to keep riding this Boland train whilst its full steam. No problems with them giving him to the 11th hour to prove his fitness. I know it's frustrating for Richardson given he was pushed into the rest category so quickly after bowling really well in the second innings at Adelaide. But Boland's returns in the last three innings are nothing short of incredible and yeah... you just got ride with it.

Richardson has a big future no doubt. He's much younger than all our quick bowling options bar Cummins, so once that backlog clears he'll be a permanent member of the quick bowling trio, assuming he can stay healthy. He'll get more opportunities along the way as well - After some fairly healthy years Haze and Starc are getting to the age where injuries start to become more of a factor, and the moment Boland has that plateau he'll drop back below Richardson in the pecking order.
Richardson in 3 years younger than Cummins.
 

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The Passenger

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Richardson in 3 years younger than Cummins.
Yep, meant to say in the context that there isn't much difference between he and Cummins.

Starc (31), Haze (31), Boland (32) and Neser (31) all much older than Richo. Once that backlogs clears I think he'll be the standout #2 quick bowler in the country.
 

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I’m surprised they didn’t rest Starc for the last Test then bring him back for the pink ball.

I did 'suggest' prior the 4th test, that perhaps Starc gets a rest in Sydney so he's fresh for the pink-ball in Hobart?
But the backlash, vitriol and scorn from some 'experts' on this board including; 'FFS, it's his home venue!', 'never rest a bowler in form, you clown!' etc. - I was actually thinking of changing my name and going into protective custody..!

As Harry Hindsight and I can now claim, given Starc's meagre outcomes at the SCG, perhaps my 'suggestion' wasn't that far off.
Moreover, Harry H and I were also screaming that Australia declare as soon Usman got his ton, which would have given the boys another 4 or 5 overs to snag at least one wicket late on day 4 and then probably win the test - this also didn't happen, oh well...
 
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Grand Uncle Horace

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I wasn’t talking about the Australian selectors having Vicbias. I’m Victorian, I don’t want any player in the team who is a dud especially a Victorian dud stinking up the joint. I don’t think there’d be too many posters here that would a dud player from their own state in the team either.


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This.

Pretty much everyone following the Shield has a view on who should fill a vacancy. Our views may be tempered by watching players and their form line from our own States a bit better. (eg I had big reservations when Finch was chosen to open, doubted Hanscomb's technique, but I was convinced Puc was up to it).

The only exception is some WA posters who continue to press the case of the Worst Australian Test (WAT) player I have seen. Thank goodness Green is healthy and doing well. When the WAT was called in as back up, my heart sunk. It was pretty funny reading some (not all) Wozzie posters defending this.
 

Grand Uncle Horace

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As for Richo, I doubt given his injury history we will get 20 Tests out of him. I really hope we get more. Who knows when the shin soreness hit in Adelaide but I thought he was down on pace.

Like everyone else, I am still looking for my socks after they were blown off by Boland. No doubt he will return to the field and return the figures of a skilled, honest trundler. At his age if we get 10 Tests from him, the side will have done well.
 

Pippen94

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As for Richo, I doubt given his injury history we will get 20 Tests out of him. I really hope we get more. Who knows when the shin soreness hit in Adelaide but I thought he was down on pace.

Like everyone else, I am still looking for my socks after they were blown off by Boland. No doubt he will return to the field and return the figures of a skilled, honest trundler. At his age if we get 10 Tests from him, the side will have done well.

Anderson is 39. World has changed & cricketers play longer these days
 

Pippen94

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They only play longer if their body is a a durable one and Anderson's has been a lot more durable over his 20 year Test career and much better than Richardson's has been over his 6 year first class career to date.

Funny, seems to be more & more durable bodies across all sports. Ppl here acting like its 1981 & early 30's is end of line. Closer to 40's for a lot of athletes these days
 
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