The "Ask Lions_Insider!" discussion thread

POBT

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I’m personally of the view that our records should relate to the Brisbane Lions only i.e. 1997 onwards and that the Bears and Fitzroy stats are stand alone and retained by the club.

What shits me the most is reading the AFL Record to see we’ve played a club X amount of times or a players records and it includes the Bears record between 87-96; yet Fitzroy’s is forgotten.

If it wasn’t just the Brisbane Lions records since 97, there wouldn’t be as much an issue.
I agree. I’d much rather a shared historical record but I don’t think there’s consensus among former Fitzroy supporters about what that might look like. There are those fiercely protective of preserving Fitzroy’s history as being owned by the FFC and others who want to see every part of Fitzroy’s heritage represented in today’s game through the Lions. I’m not a former Fitzroy supporter so it isn’t my place to join that argument but I would rather find a way that unites rather than divides supporters. Trying to include Fitzroy records as Brisbane Lions records just seems to me to create too much angst so a 1997 start to official records will do me.

However, if we’re talking corporate entities, as I understand it, the corporate entity playing the AFL is the one that joined the competition in 1987 as the Brisbane Bears.

If we want to quote ACNs and deeds of company arrangement, then the Bears’ record is the one that should be cited. The Bears, albeit following a rebranding and name change, won the three flags in a row - not the Brisbane Lions - a club which celebrates two histories and is forging a shared way forward. We all support ACN 054 263 573, not a footy club.

That all feels quite unsatisfying. When you reduce a footy club to its legal identity, you lose so much about what makes footy great. I don’t support an ACN - I’m not sure anyone does.
 

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Roylion

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If we want to quote ACNs and deeds of company arrangement, then the Bears’ record is the one that should be cited. The Bears, albeit following a rebranding and name change, won the three flags in a row - not the Brisbane Lions - a club which celebrates two histories and is forging a shared way forward. We all support ACN 054 263 573, not a footy club.

That all feels quite unsatisfying. When you reduce a footy club to its legal identity, you lose so much about what makes footy great. I don’t support an ACN - I’m not sure anyone does.
Fitzroy Football Club was completely gutted by the administrator at the end of 1996, but it always had a board of directors and shareholders, as well as continuing supporters. As soon as the Club came out of administration the Fitzroy directors resolved to continue the club (which is why the occasional statement that Fitzroy now just exists as a company, or just as an ACN is obviously not correct). From 1998 onwards Fitzroy Football Club started once again taking ordinary membership subscriptions again with the aim of re-establishing a football team on the field (which they had done by 2009). Fitzroy also started re-accumulating assets such as trademarking the FFC logo, launching a "Fitzroy Shop", which sold Fitzroy jumpers and other merchandise, issuing club memberships to supporters, and slowly getting back on its feet as an operating football club.

So from 1997-2008 Fitzroy was effectively in recess as a on-field football club, in pretty much the same manner as many VFL-AFL clubs had been in recess in the late 1910s and 1940s. Not playing on the field, but continuing as a club off it. They include Geelong 1916, 1942-1943; South Melbourne 1916, Essendon 1916-1917, St Kida 1916-1917, Melbourne 1916-1918 and University 1915-1918.

The point of all this of course is that the Fitzroy Football Club existing now in the VAFA has a history stretching back to 1883, in the same manner as Geelong has their history stretching back to 1859, despite being in recess twice. Are the Brisbane Lions the same club as the Fitzroy Football Club? Well obviously not. So therefore should the Brisbane Lions include the records of the Fitzroy Football Club as their own?
 

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I agree. I’d much rather a shared historical record but I don’t think there’s consensus among former Fitzroy supporters about what that might look like. There are those fiercely protective of preserving Fitzroy’s history as being owned by the FFC and others who want to see every part of Fitzroy’s heritage represented in today’s game through the Lions. I’m not a former Fitzroy supporter so it isn’t my place to join that argument but I would rather find a way that unites rather than divides supporters. Trying to include Fitzroy records as Brisbane Lions records just seems to me to create too much angst so a 1997 start to official records will do me.

However, if we’re talking corporate entities, as I understand it, the corporate entity playing the AFL is the one that joined the competition in 1987 as the Brisbane Bears.

If we want to quote ACNs and deeds of company arrangement, then the Bears’ record is the one that should be cited. The Bears, albeit following a rebranding and name change, won the three flags in a row - not the Brisbane Lions - a club which celebrates two histories and is forging a shared way forward. We all support ACN 054 263 573, not a footy club.

That all feels quite unsatisfying. When you reduce a footy club to its legal identity, you lose so much about what makes footy great. I don’t support an ACN - I’m not sure anyone does.
C'arn the 573s!
 

Davemonkey

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Hey LI, are there any plans to bring in new memorabilia or framed photos? The current stock on the website is pretty slim and old. There is so much potential with Hipwood, Berry, McCluggage and Andrews.
AFLX Premiership Winner Memorabilia?
 

Dylan12

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Speaking of AFLX, heard that different concepts may be given a go i.e. Irish, Indigenous team(s), African etc. If they were going that far; I’d be all for Fitzroy and South Melbourne teams comprising Melbourne based players of the respective Lions and Swans teams and even a Bears side made up of Brisbane based players.

It’s already a Mickey Mouse comp; why not go the whole hog. Just my two cents.
 

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Speaking of AFLX, heard that different concepts may be given a go i.e. Irish, Indigenous team(s), African etc. If they were going that far; I’d be all for Fitzroy and South Melbourne teams comprising Melbourne based players of the respective Lions and Swans teams and even a Bears side made up of Brisbane based players.

It’s already a Mickey Mouse comp; why not go the whole hog. Just my two cents.
I'd be all for a Big Footy Poster AFLX side for each club, I'll nominate myself for the intercepting defender role.
 

philcara16

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Fitzroy Football Club was completely gutted by the administrator at the end of 1996, but it always had a board of directors and shareholders, as well as continuing supporters. As soon as the Club came out of administration the Fitzroy directors resolved to continue the club (which is why the occasional statement that Fitzroy now just exists as a company, or just as an ACN is obviously not correct). From 1998 onwards Fitzroy Football Club started once again taking ordinary membership subscriptions again with the aim of re-establishing a football team on the field (which they had done by 2009). Fitzroy also started re-accumulating assets such as trademarking the FFC logo, launching a "Fitzroy Shop", which sold Fitzroy jumpers and other merchandise, issuing club memberships to supporters, and slowly getting back on its feet as an operating football club.

So from 1997-2008 Fitzroy was effectively in recess as a on-field football club, in pretty much the same manner as many VFL-AFL clubs had been in recess in the late 1910s and 1940s. Not playing on the field, but continuing as a club off it. They include Geelong 1916, 1942-1943; South Melbourne 1916, Essendon 1916-1917, St Kida 1916-1917, Melbourne 1916-1918 and University 1915-1918.

The point of all this of course is that the Fitzroy Football Club existing now in the VAFA has a history stretching back to 1883, in the same manner as Geelong has their history stretching back to 1859, despite being in recess twice. Are the Brisbane Lions the same club as the Fitzroy Football Club? Well obviously not. So therefore should the Brisbane Lions include the records of the Fitzroy Football Club as their own?
Do you have a copy of the full merger agreement?

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...tween-the-afl-and-the-brisbane-bears.1010794/

According to the text of the schedule provided in thread linked above:

Fitzroy will transfer all tangible and intangible assets associated with its Club Operations (including all memorabilia) to Brisbane Bears so that the merger is complete on or before the Merger Date.
Could it be said that the Bears by virtue of this deed, inherited Fitzroy's history? Is history even an intangible asset that can be transferred? I'd like to review a few of the merger documents if you had them Roylion .
 

Roylion

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Do you have a copy of the full merger agreement?
The full Deed of Arrangement (known more commonly as the 'merger' agreement) is on the Fitzroy board.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-deed-of-arrangement-between-fitzroy-and-brisbane.885996/

This is word for word from the actual copy of the agreement, that I have in my possession.

Note: in the definitions:

"Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;

This is the support deed signed between the AFL and the Brisbane Bears. The directors or administrator of Fitzroy did not sign this deed.

The text of the actual Deed of Arrangment signed by the administrator of Fitzroy reads:

"b) on or before the Merger Date, Fitzroy will transfer to Brisbane Bears all tangible and intangible assets associated with its Club Operations (including all memorabilia) and pay to Brisbane Bears all available moneys by repayment of the Loan advances made under clauses 4.2(b) and 4.2 (d)."

Could it be said that the Bears by virtue of this deed, inherited Fitzroy's history?
The AFL made the Brisbane Bears the custodians of Fitzroy's AFL history in the context of the AFL competition. That does not transfer Fitzroy Football Club's history away from the Fitzroy Football Club, a club that was in 2010 found by the Supreme Court of Victoria to be the same legal entity as the Fitzroy Football Club founded in 1883.

Is history even an intangible asset that can be transferred?
An intangible asset is an identifiable non-monetary asset without physical substance. An asset is a resource that is controlled by the entity as a result of past events (for example, purchase or self-creation) and from which future economic benefits (inflows of cash or other assets) are expected.

So in other words, Brisbane Bears (now known as 'Brisbane Lions') have the legal right to use Fitzroy's history in the AFL for their own future economic benefit, such as marketing new jumpers for events such as heritage rounds and the like. That in itself does not transfer Fitzroy's history from the Fitzroy Football Club. As such Fitzroy for example have a legal right to claim that they are only football club in football history to have played VFA, VFL, AFL and VAFA and are entitled to use the records in the ongoing history of their club.

In the end it is the AFL that determines whether or not Fitzroy's records are used by the Brisbane Lions. Can two seperate clubs have the same sets of records is the question.

I'd like to review a few of the merger documents if you had them Roylion .
There are two. The Deed of Arrangement and the AFL support deed.
 

Skoob

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Hi Lions_Insider, can you please pass this message to Fages please, if he's got time? I know he sits on the games committee, and just wanted to share my thoughts.

With potential rule changes to improve the look of the game, to encourage free-flowing, high scoring football - the games committee is looking at ways to tweak the set up, with zones/interchange caps/increased goalsquares etc. However as AFL coaches are all very clever people, it won't be long before some people work out how to come up with new strategies to play defensive again, adjusting to the new rule changes.

Think outside the box - why not incentivise high scoring? 4 premiership points still up for grabs for every win. 1 bonus point for teams that score 100 or 120 points (or another arbitrary number) whether they win/lose/draw. Similar idea to the bonus point in some cricket tournaments or Super Rugby...to encourage teams to score. This way, teams will try to score more and be less inclined to play out low-scoring, grinding games. And better still - no other rule tweaks required!

Coaches who want to play defensive games can still do so if they choose - but they give up the opportunity for bonus points.

Now of course some people will complain that games may be played in different conditions, say if it's raining or windy then high scoring becomes more difficult...yes that is the case, but tends to even out across the length of the season. Doesn't stop cricket or rugby employing the bonus point.

Thanks.
Sounds like a terrible idea, and unfair. Conditions do affect scoring, and while teams who play more games at Etihad will likely score higher, those who happen to play more in wet conditions will score less. Too arbitrary to assume things will even out over the season. Size of ground can impact as well.
What if we for example, win all our games in the wet, but struggle to win many in the dry. Disadvantaged straight away.

I'm not at all a fan of changing rules to manufacture a game style. Want an incentive to score more? There is already the higher possibility of a bigger margin and therefore percentage (ladder spot). Next they'll want to introduce super goals or overs and unders.
 

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Yeah I guess a goalkicking award sends a message that there is something more important about the guy kicking the goals than their teammates who do the less celebrated stuff to make said goal happen.

Bad signal to send in a team game that more than ever depends on every single player selflessly playing their role.
 

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Yeah I guess a goalkicking award sends a message that there is something more important about the guy kicking the goals than their teammates who do the less celebrated stuff to make said goal happen.

Bad signal to send in a team game that more than ever depends on every single player selflessly playing their role.
So, all Coleman winners are @rseholes?
 

Dylan12

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Yeah I guess a goalkicking award sends a message that there is something more important about the guy kicking the goals than their teammates who do the less celebrated stuff to make said goal happen.

Bad signal to send in a team game that more than ever depends on every single player selflessly playing their role.
Of course.

It is just one of those traditional awards that is still awarded at all levels across the country but understand that feting one player for essentially finishing off others work is no long rewarded.
 

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Personally I find it odd that we don't recognise the highest goalkicker.......we celebrate and award all facets of the game....yet the person whose job it is to kick the goals, who is ultimately at the end of good team work, doesn't get recognised.

Afterall, they are the people who win the game for us. They should be recognised. It is a highly coveted award throughout the league, yet not at our club.

...might be just me, but I feel it's an important award/reward for finishing off the teams efforts.
 

Skoob

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Personally I find it odd that we don't recognise the highest goalkicker.......we celebrate and award all facets of the game....yet the person whose job it is to kick the goals, who is ultimately at the end of good team work, doesn't get recognised.

Afterall, they are the people who win the game for us. They should be recognised. It is a highly coveted award throughout the league, yet not at our club.

...might be just me, but I feel it's an important award/reward for finishing off the teams efforts.
I think that's the point. They're not really. Scoring takes many to play their part.
The goal kicker has as much opportunity as anyone, by being the best and fairest as judged by the club and their peers. As much as you don't score without kicking through the big sticks, your team doesn't get those opportunities without getting the ball there. You also don't kick a winning score without restricting your opponent's score.
There have been some forwards throughout history who have anchored themselves in the forward line and have the ball delivered to them on a platter. Of course they kick a heap of goals. So what? Much of the team has done the real work, and the last kicker gets the plaudits.

As already mentioned, that person still gets recognised, with their name on a plaque. Just no need to present a trophy or make a big deal of it.
 

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I did say it was the end result of good team work. I'd be really peeved if the team did all the work and no-one at the receiving end kicked any goals..

..imo that is their part of the team work to do.

We differ on opinions again, so probably best to leave it there.
 

PattyKwasagun

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I did say it was the end result of good team work. I'd be really peeved if the team did all the work and no-one at the receiving end kicked any goals..

..imo that is their part of the team work to do.

We differ on opinions again, so probably best to leave it there.
It's an interesting question, and from a fan's perspective I think the top goalkickers in the comp should definitely be acknowledged and celebrated - they're a large part of the entertainment of the game.

I guess when it comes to club level though, to suggest that the person kicking the goals is more important than the one applying the most pressure acts or the one with the most metres gained etc is probably a bit unfair. Unless the club was to bring in awards celebrating each facet of the game and the standout player in that space each year, I think it would be potentially unhelpful to celebrate goal kicking.
 

POBT

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We played our best this year when players were unselfish around goals. Sometimes, they took it too far (eg Charlie in the goal square) but, generally speaking, we looked better when guys weren’t taking pings at goal when there were better options to pass it off to. If you want to encourage that sort of team oriented play, you can’t then have an award which only rewards the guy on the end of it.

Fagan made the same type of argument, albeit in a different context, when describing Zorks’ season compared to Beams. On all the exciting stats, Beams was the clear winner. But Zorks did the things the club values which don’t result in a touch, mark or goal.
 

MacMum

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Another angle...

...what if one of our players won the Coleman medal. He would be given a medal and get all sorts of congratulations from around the league and his name in record books.... yet his own club won't recognise it.

We give out "best ofs" for various things within the team at B n F nights, yet not that..
 

Skoob

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Another angle...

...what if one of our players won the Coleman medal. He would be given a medal and get all sorts of congratulations from around the league and his name in record books.... yet his own club won't recognise it.

We give out "best ofs" for various things within the team at B n F nights, yet not that..
As already mentioned, that person still gets recognised, with their name on a plaque. Just no need to present a trophy or make a big deal of it.
 
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Thread starter Moderator #572
I’d rather see one of our players win something like a “Brett Kirk medal” for most tackles.
 
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Thread starter Moderator #574
The Shaun Hart Trademark player of the year covers that stuff.
I’m talking about a league wide medal and how I’d rate that more than a Coleman.

Cmon Jackess, the Lions aren’t going to name an internal club award after Brett Kirk ;)
 
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