The beginnings of a Plan ...

Kristof

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Thread starter #1
Okay - some of this will sound harsh, but it's my thoughts on what the Crows should do.

The first thing is recognize that finishing 9th - 11th is much worse than finishing 14th. And, after recognizing this, we call Ayres into our office, thank him for his efforts, and fire him, effective immediately. We give D Jarman the job, after letting him know that he's not coaching for his future and has been chosen because he won't be trying to take stop-gap measures to protect his job for next year.

Because it's not about a position or two on the ladder this year, it's about answering some questions that will help secure the future of the club.

First thing we do - we relegate Doughty, Mattner, Shirley and Gallagher to the SANFL, where they play out the year. Sorry - we know what you can do, and you're not part of our future. We put any of them on the table at the end of the year, hoping for a pick late in the draft, but assuming we'll have to delist.

We bring in Smart and Mark Stevens into the side, so that there are some veterans for the juniors to have around. True veterans with success, no twenty five year old nobodies. And players who will add their knowledge now, but will be leaving at the end of the year, so the juniors will be able to progress further in 2005 with added responsibility.

We tell Reilly that he is going to be on the wing for the rest of the year. We tell Watts he is going to be at centre half forward, that it's okay to stuff up and make mistakes as long as he's attacking the footy, and he is going to have an orange with Carey at half time each game to hear what he's doing wrong. We tell Perrie that he's going to be at full forward for the rest of the year, and he's going to run and jump at everything. We bring in Krueger when he's fit and we let Bock stay in the back pocket and Henschel in the back half. We give players like Skipworth, Schuback, Bode and Ladhams enough time in their appropriate spot for us to KNOW. Plus we try other options at full-back beside Bassett, to see if we can build that from within or if we need to find that in the offseason.

The season plays out, and we make some hard decisions. We've built up Perrie's value, and we trade him. We delist/retire Burns, Carey, Doughty, Gallagher, Mattner, Shirley, Clarke, Smart and Stevens. A lot, but that's okay. We hopefully have a priority pick - I know, that's hard to stomach - and we're bringing in three quality kids at picks two, four and eighteen (say), plus the pre-season pick for someone who we're stealing away from a Vic team because we have so much salary cap room. We speculate late in the draft, to see if we can come up with a one or two diamonds in the rough. We seriously look at Andrews, Hazell and Parker.

We trade Perrie and Burton, and we seriously look at offers for other players who may have a higher value on the market than they currently have for us. We HAVE to discuss moving McLeod, Goodwin and even Johncock for the right offer - the only player than the club deems untouchable for emotional reasons is Ricciuto. Welsh, Bode and Massie would also be on the table.

We try to put a package together for Ottens - but need to know that we have enough hand to get him preseason if Richmond act like smartarses. We prioritise at least one of the SA draftees from 2002 - players like Schulz, Bell, Faulkner - as it was a disgrace that it could be such a deep and strong year for SA draftees and we let them all (bar Jericho) leave the state.

Who we trade for will be based on a position of knowing better what we really have with our juniors and midlist players. Do we have a full back? Are we okay for wingmen and small forwards? Do we have enough ruck stocks to survive the next couple of years until our pick 4/18 matures, or is that a priority? Do have enough speed?

Finally, we put together the right coaching staff. Carey and Jarman for forwards. Bring in Rehn. Look at the coaching freeagents such as Wallace and see if any are good fits. But start thinking NOW.
 

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spindoctor

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#3
There are so many things that are wrong with that 'Plan' I can't begin.

Firstly, by delisting solid 'depth' players like Dougty and Gallagher, you have the potential of leaving us with a list that has no back-up in the case of injuries.

Yet you ALSO want to trade-off our topline and second-tier players in the hope some developing kids will come back to SA.

Basically, you are getting very close to the result of the worst, most inexperienced team ever to have played AFL football. Like, worse than Fremantle in its 2-win season.

List changes can't be that dramatic if the aim is to rebuild. It's stupid, incompetent and that is why you would never be a senior coach.
 

Kristof

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Thread starter #4
Originally posted by spindoctor
There are so many things that are wrong with that 'Plan' I can't begin.
And yet you did. Thank you for your shallow, feeble analysis, you clown. To start with the points you raise ...

Firstly, by delisting solid 'depth' players like Dougty and Gallagher, you have the potential of leaving us with a list that has no back-up in the case of injuries. Yet you ALSO want to trade-off our topline and second-tier players in the hope some developing kids will come back to SA.
By our weak topping up planning of the last four years, we have little more THAN top-up players. We have rebuilt by late picks (Shirley, Smith, Skipworth, Schuback), preseason draft selections (Ladhams, Hentschel), and rookie elevations (Marsh, Doughty, Gallagher, Mattner, Rutten, Bock). THIS HASN'T WORKED. We have TOO MANY midlist players of limited quality and class, and it is cowardice such as what you're proposing - keeping players on the list that have given clear evidence that they're not up to standard - that will keep us in the bottom half for a decade.

I proposed cutting FOUR players who have shown they can't cut it - Mattner, Shirley, Gallagher and Doughty - all players that will be played if we're focussing on shortterm gain, and maintaining enough mediocrity for people to keep their job. There's still a whole raft of players who I was proposing keeping for the vaunted "list depth" - Bode, Ladhams, Skipworth, Stenglein, Begly, Massie, Bock, Rutten, Torney, etc etc. The others are retirees. Frankly, I would rather replace these guys with later picks that offer some possibility for improvement.

Secondly - Topline? Perrie and Burton? End of career players such as Goodwin and McLeod? Good to see you're willing to make the hard decisions. The idea is to trade to a side that thinks its close to getting over the top and is willing to make a trade that sacrifices a kid or two for immediate gain - you know, like say WE DID TWO YEARS AGO. We are two-three years away, and players that won't be a part of that should be considered tradeable. Sorry if that is harsh.

List changes can't be that dramatic if the aim is to rebuild. It's stupid, incompetent and that is why you would never be a senior coach.
Sides that have rebuilt in the last decade - St Kilda, Collingwood, Brisbane - have all used dramatic rebuilding strategies. Collingwood is having a tough year this year - but compare the ages of the sides out there last night. They have four or five topline players out, AND THEY BEAT US WITH YOUTH.

Thanks for your stupid and incompetent comment, d1ckhead - the point I was making was use this year to answer questions about our list, so we can rebuild - and it is rebuilding, not evolving - form a base of knowledge, not "we'll be alright". And recognise that we aren't only a couple of players away from being a great side. That should be clear to anyone, even someone like you with blinders on.

We are mediocre. Surely you recognise that.
 

spindoctor

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#5
I am not wearing blinders, I am just realistic. I never called Perrie or Burton topliners - I said also SECOND TIER players, which those are.

The rebuilding programmes of the sides you mentioned are nowhere near as drastic as you have suggested.

We are mediocre, but again, if you look at the sides you suggested, their rebuilding took years and years, not one foul swoop like you are suggesting for us.
 

Stiffy_18

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#6
Firstly, sacking a coach mid-season does more damage than good and I am not for it.

Secondly, youngsters need experience around then if they are to develop into top liners that know how to win. Compare the difference between St. Kilda and Geelong. Saints were smart enough to keep some experience and also recruit some experience to complement talented youngsters.

Geelong on the other hand kept very little experienced players and they are struggling despite having some real talent on that list. Blind Freddy can see the difference between the 2 clubs


Getting rid of someone like McLeod really achieves nothing in the long run. The best you will get for him is a 1st round draft pick and that guarantees nothing. Also the only way we can gewt out of this mess is through draft. What we have to offer trade wise is mostly something we can't afford to lose.

Every young team needs experienced campaigners around to guide them if they arew to really develop into top line players.
 

jc67

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#7
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Firstly, sacking a coach mid-season does more damage than good and I am not for it.
history sugests otherwise (most recent is roos).
it's like people who stay married for the sake of the kids. They really do a lot of damage to the kids by staying in something that will never work.
if it's good for the club in 6 months time then it's great for the team now.
 

Stiffy_18

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#8
Originally posted by jc67
history sugests otherwise (most recent is roos).
For every success story I can give you 2 failures. Roos made an imidiate impact. Lets go back a little bit. Did sacking Damian Drum midseason make the dockers a different side for the rest of the year?????? Did sacking Malcolm Blight after round 7 make St. Kilda a better side fro the rest of the year??????

For every success story, there are 2 failures. sacking Ayres mid-season achieves absolutely nothing. We won't make the 8 who ever the coach is. Ayres is hell bent on playing youngsters so it shows a bit of character from a bloke who is putting a club before himself.

Let him serve his contract and see what happens at the end of the year. Sacking him mid-season is pointless and pretty stupid IMHO.
 

jc67

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#9
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Sacking him mid-season is pointless and pretty stupid IMHO.
No body I know argues with playing youth, but not at all costs.
I may be a terminal optimist but I truly believe we CAN play finals! (Collingwood only had 3 wins this time last year).


It would help greatly if the personality issues were removed from the operational group (coaches and players) AND wouldn’t we all love a strategist in the box on match days??
 

Stiffy_18

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#10
Originally posted by jc67
1. No body I know argues with playing youth, but not at all costs.
I may be a terminal optimist but I truly believe we CAN play finals! (Collingwood only had 3 wins this time last year).


2. It would help greatly if the personality issues were removed from the operational group (coaches and players) AND wouldn’t we all love a strategist in the box on match days??
1. There is no way in hell we will play finals this year. Even Reidy said its mathematically possible but extremely difficult. No coach will get us into finals from this position. Compare our draw to Collingwoods who play 18 of their games in melbourne and never went to Perth, got a lot of friday night games (which players and coaches love). No chance that we will make the finals and we SHOULD play youth at all costs.

2. Yes we would love all that but there is no point in making changes mid-season. It achieves nothing what so ever except creating more expenses to the footy club.
 

jc67

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#11
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
1. There is no way in hell we will play finals this year. Even Reidy said its mathematically possible but extremely difficult.
2, No coach will get us into finals from this position.
3, Compare our draw to Collingwoods who play 18 of their games in melbourne and never went to Perth, got a lot of friday night games (which players and coaches love).
4, No chance that we will make the finals and we SHOULD play youth at all costs.

5. Yes we would love all that but there is no point in making changes mid-season.
6, It achieves nothing what so ever except creating more expenses to the footy club.
1, difficult is not imposable (Sh1t we are STILL only at worst 3 games out)
2, Ayres wont thats for sure
3, we have 8 home games coming (1 less than collingwood last year)
4, refer to point 1 AND who the bloody hell is left to play? apart from the couple that we agree on?
5, if it's going to happen at the end of the season then it is MUCH better to happen now!
6a, it achieves (at the minimum) first hand knowlage for the new coach come trade time.
6b, a new leaf and therefore a better attitude from a lot of players.
 

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#12
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
For every success story I can give you 2 failures. Roos made an imidiate impact. Lets go back a little bit. Did sacking Damian Drum midseason make the dockers a different side for the rest of the year?????? Did sacking Malcolm Blight after round 7 make St. Kilda a better side fro the rest of the year??????

For every success story, there are 2 failures. sacking Ayres mid-season achieves absolutely nothing. We won't make the 8 who ever the coach is. Ayres is hell bent on playing youngsters so it shows a bit of character from a bloke who is putting a club before himself.

Let him serve his contract and see what happens at the end of the year. Sacking him mid-season is pointless and pretty stupid IMHO.
On this subject, I'm in complete agreement.
Ayres is a person with great personal values, who has given this club his all.
The least he deserves is the same respect back.
 
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#13
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
2. Yes we would love all that but there is no point in making changes mid-season. It achieves nothing what so ever except creating more expenses to the footy club.
The only way you would consider changing coaches mid-season, is if the coach has lost his players.
No evidence at all that this is the case.
 

Stiffy_18

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#14
Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The only way you would consider changing coaches mid-season, is if the coach has lost his players.
No evidence at all that this is the case.
And even then you would seriously consider it. As I said in the other thread blaming coach is the easier ting. Fact is he can't kick, mark, tackle or chase for players. I know the buck stops with the coach but this is really becoming a joke.
 

macca23

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#15
Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The only way you would consider changing coaches mid-season, is if the coach has lost his players.
No evidence at all that this is the case.
I'm not so sure about this.

I think he has lost a fair hunk of the players quite frankly. The enthusiasm level is very low, and surely that is a sign that the coach has lost the players.

Look at when Huddo scores his 1st AFL goal. Not one player congratulated him.

Or when Macca goaled with 50 seconds to play and a chance still to win. How many players went up to him??

One. The skipper.

Having said that I still wouldn't sack the coach mid-season.

But I sure as hell wouldn't reappoint him either.
 

jc67

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#16
Originally posted by macca23
I'm not so sure about this.

I think he has lost a fair hunk of the players quite frankly. The enthusiasm level is very low, and surely that is a sign that the coach has lost the players.

Look at when Huddo scores his 1st AFL goal. Not one player congratulated him.

Or when Macca goaled with 50 seconds to play and a chance still to win. How many players went up to him??

One. The skipper.

Having said that I still wouldn't sack the coach mid-season.

But I sure as hell wouldn't reappoint him either.
it sure looked like he's lost/losing them on tv, maybe not.
the things that get up my nose are the controlables, poor match ups and inflexable positoin manouveres,lack of plan b,c,d.
this is nothing new for me but fridays game put me over the edge, the game was there the entire time all that was needed was to make some moves (any bloody moves). sure he cant kick,tackle or mark from the box but he can put the right people inb the right places to do that for the team.

if kenny were moved on tarrent at 3/4 time we would have won that game. Still not pretty(scrappy as buggery) but we would have won!
And that is something the players are NOT responsable for.

You know I would be happy if Ayres could be dropped back to the SANFL to find some form.
 

jc67

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#17
Someone is coaching the coach!!!
in his interview on the Sunday footy show he only said cretainly 3 times and 1 obviously!!!!!!!
amazing. maybe you can teach an old hawk new tricks???
Now for the gameplan?

1 more certainly,,,,,, this is starting to look like a job interview:confused:
 

dicko

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#18
Time to go Gary

The man has had 5 years at the helm, and like all things left in the one place to long they get stale.

Gary is no leigh mathews, or sheedy, so its time for some new blood good or bad. The players seem disinterested, and this is the coaches fault. After all that is what he is payed for, to motivate and train them, if he cant achieve that then the battle is lost.

He has had some good years, and this is a bad one, but at the end of it all if the players are not playing with passion for him, then something has to change and you are not going to get rid of the whole team.

I would not sack him, but as others have said, tell him he will not be there next year, and if he wishes to leave early thats his call.

Coaches are like pollies, if they dont have the confidence of the those under them they get voted out of office
 
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#19
A couple of points.

1. Coaches like all of us get better at their job with age and experience.

2. If I was a senior player, and I entered this season believing we were a premiership chance, only to lose early games and enter an obvious rebuilding phase - I would be flat as well.
 

Stiffy_18

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#20
Originally posted by Wayne's-World
A couple of points.

1. Coaches like all of us get better at their job with age and experience.

2. If I was a senior player, and I entered this season believing we were a premiership chance, only to lose early games and enter an obvious rebuilding phase - I would be flat as well.
Spot on and just on 2nd point, no coach would be able to motivate you once you realise that the goal that you set in not achievable.
 
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#21
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Spot on and just on 2nd point, no coach would be able to motivate you once you realise that the goal that you set in not achievable.
It's not as likely to affect Roo, who knows as captain he has to show leadership. Carey wants to go out on a good note.
But the other experienced guys would be finding it a little difficult to motivate themselves.

That feeling in the last qtr on Friday, was as flat an experience I have ever experienced of a side only 3 points down.
 

Stiffy_18

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#22
Originally posted by Wayne's-World
It's not as likely to affect Roo, who knows as captain he has to show leadership. Carey wants to go out on a good note.
But the other experienced guys would be finding it a little difficult to motivate themselves.

That feeling in the last qtr on Friday, was as flat an experience I have ever experienced of a side only 3 points down.
My point exactly. Roo is a leader and he no mattner what the situation he would feel obliged to lead from the front.

Carey wants to go out on a high. All the other senior players are naturally feeling flat.

I think Kenny has been very good as well. BTW, did he provide more run out of defence on friday?:p
 
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#23
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I think Kenny has been very good as well. BTW, did he provide more run out of defence on friday?:p
Look to be honest I probably watched the youngsters more closely, but my overall impression was there was really no-one who caught my eyes as an obviously good player.
Begley did some good things which as you know sometimes you don't pick up on TV.

Kenny spent sometime at FB, didn't do much wrong, but I think he just strikes me as one of those stop-gap players, who are real handy, but not game winners, or capable of breaking a game open.

Look he could end up doing the type of role, done by M.Stevens.
 

Crow-mosone

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#24
Originally posted by Kristof
Okay - some of this will sound harsh, but it's my thoughts on what the Crows should do.

The first thing is recognize that finishing 9th - 11th is much worse than finishing 14th. And, after recognizing this, we call Ayres into our office, thank him for his efforts, and fire him, effective immediately. We give D Jarman the job, after letting him know that he's not coaching for his future and has been chosen because he won't be trying to take stop-gap measures to protect his job for next year.

Because it's not about a position or two on the ladder this year, it's about answering some questions that will help secure the future of the club.

First thing we do - we relegate Doughty, Mattner, Shirley and Gallagher to the SANFL, where they play out the year. Sorry - we know what you can do, and you're not part of our future. We put any of them on the table at the end of the year, hoping for a pick late in the draft, but assuming we'll have to delist.

We bring in Smart and Mark Stevens into the side, so that there are some veterans for the juniors to have around. True veterans with success, no twenty five year old nobodies. And players who will add their knowledge now, but will be leaving at the end of the year, so the juniors will be able to progress further in 2005 with added responsibility.

We tell Reilly that he is going to be on the wing for the rest of the year. We tell Watts he is going to be at centre half forward, that it's okay to stuff up and make mistakes as long as he's attacking the footy, and he is going to have an orange with Carey at half time each game to hear what he's doing wrong. We tell Perrie that he's going to be at full forward for the rest of the year, and he's going to run and jump at everything. We bring in Krueger when he's fit and we let Bock stay in the back pocket and Henschel in the back half. We give players like Skipworth, Schuback, Bode and Ladhams enough time in their appropriate spot for us to KNOW. Plus we try other options at full-back beside Bassett, to see if we can build that from within or if we need to find that in the offseason.

The season plays out, and we make some hard decisions. We've built up Perrie's value, and we trade him. We delist/retire Burns, Carey, Doughty, Gallagher, Mattner, Shirley, Clarke, Smart and Stevens. A lot, but that's okay. We hopefully have a priority pick - I know, that's hard to stomach - and we're bringing in three quality kids at picks two, four and eighteen (say), plus the pre-season pick for someone who we're stealing away from a Vic team because we have so much salary cap room. We speculate late in the draft, to see if we can come up with a one or two diamonds in the rough. We seriously look at Andrews, Hazell and Parker.

We trade Perrie and Burton, and we seriously look at offers for other players who may have a higher value on the market than they currently have for us. We HAVE to discuss moving McLeod, Goodwin and even Johncock for the right offer - the only player than the club deems untouchable for emotional reasons is Ricciuto. Welsh, Bode and Massie would also be on the table.

We try to put a package together for Ottens - but need to know that we have enough hand to get him preseason if Richmond act like smartarses. We prioritise at least one of the SA draftees from 2002 - players like Schulz, Bell, Faulkner - as it was a disgrace that it could be such a deep and strong year for SA draftees and we let them all (bar Jericho) leave the state.

Who we trade for will be based on a position of knowing better what we really have with our juniors and midlist players. Do we have a full back? Are we okay for wingmen and small forwards? Do we have enough ruck stocks to survive the next couple of years until our pick 4/18 matures, or is that a priority? Do have enough speed?

Finally, we put together the right coaching staff. Carey and Jarman for forwards. Bring in Rehn. Look at the coaching freeagents such as Wallace and see if any are good fits. But start thinking NOW.

I like the thinking, in that ‘stop bitching, what are we going to do about it' way, but I can’t see the crash and burn strategy working as it is too negative; the club won't sack Ayres as this not the culture they are trying to engender. It would take a lot for them to say to sponsors and supporters we're rubbish, and we're hoping to be good one day soon. there may well be benefits to that, but I can't think that will be acceptable to the corporate stakeholders in the club. We're a big club, and I can't see anyone agreeing to act like a little one.

I do agree about using the rest of the year for good and not evil. A couple of those players are evil. I think we need bargaining chips, more so than draft picks. Though in practice they are the same thing. Fatten up some players, get their values as high as possible see what comes of it. Put yourself in poll position, by having strong draft picks, and trade leverage through the PSD
I am all for trading Reilly while people still think he is a good player, how much is enough? he's no dud, but he's not shown he's a star either, right now his value is higher than perhaps it should be.

I don't think there is that much wrong with us, but we are team structured to get drive from the midfield, and we are not getting it. We have a class ruckman, and we win clearances, but there is no run. We have 2 midfielders of class at the moment and one of them certainly is not playing like it’s a contract year. Last year we moved the ball into the 50 and squandered it, this year we're not getting that.

I would want no.1 pick in the pre-season draft, leverage Ottens in a good trade, and use the pick on Lenny Hayes, really make StK work their salary cap squeeze. Overpay, for the 1 player who might make a difference. Let StK, know what it's like to have THEIR list hunted. Don't even know if Hayes is out of contract, but the point remains.

I would also scrap the only SA player policy, obviously, interstate players become bargaining chips if they want to go back home - It's not a disaster it's a payday.
I think we look beyond our normal confines and comfort zone, and start going for it. Trade Mcleod? – no, he is our 1 genuine champion who can break a game open in 5 minutes. However I say that now, mid season. We can’t afford him on our list if he is going through the motions. We should explain the situation to him, that if there is no noticeable improvement we might have to look at trading him. He would still bring a hefty price from a contending team, that wants just such a player. Maybe the change of scenery would do him good, and that’s something we need to look at. Who amongst our players might benefit from new surroundings and who over the border might that be true of also.

I can distill my view thus:

We are a big club, we need to start acting like one. Big clubs hunt, they exploit their advantages, and they look to feed on the weaknesses of the struggling underclass of clubs. Happens all over of the world, let’s be more Yankees than Mets, more Manchester United than City, let’s be aggressive. Enough ‘for the good of the game’, more for the good of the AFC.

Coaching? untried coaches is little league . Poorer clubs go the untried route because they are looking for bargains, ready to lose them to big clubs. We should choose our guy, for me: Wallace or Eade, and give them free reign to bring in their own staff. Ala Matthews and Graeme Allen. If you are our coach, you coach as best you see fit. John Reid will no longer be in the box, no one will look over you shoulder; that’s the good bit, but we expect results. We will pay you top dollar, and you will deliver the best results possible. Easy to understand, if you fail, you’re out.

As I said my mantra is big thinking, big clubs, big hunting. You can’t have it both ways, if we will not rebuild because we’re not that sort of club, let’s act like it. If we are not prepared to act in the way our status affords, then we should rebuild. I.e. act like a little club. One or the other, none of this hybrid stuff.
 
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