The beginnings of a Plan ...

jc67

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#26
Originally posted by gocatsgo
haven't posted in a while, but this is a subject close to my heart.

Ayres stuffed up Geelong good and proper and is doing (if not already has done) the same thing to the Crows.

his recruiting was a disgrace. I think of the five years he coached us only Steven King (who was a priority for us losing Wills and O'Reilly to Freo) and Darren Milburn are the only players remaining on our list that were recruited in this time.

He took over a side that i could have coached into a grand final in 1995 and in 1997 if he hadn't have made an example out of Ablett in the pre-season and played him in the reserves in round one (where he did his knee) we would have gone very very close to the premiership. As it was, we finished second behind Stkilda by about 2%... We all the story from there.

Ayres prematurely ended the careers of Bairstow, Couch, S. Hocking, Brownless and ultimately Ablett, these were our club legends and he made examples of them. Some of these players still haven't returned to the club.

Geelong is only now starting to turn around the Ayres legacy. It's taken Mark Thompson four and a half years to do it.

The situation i fear is very similar in Adelaide.

While he hasn't ended the careers of club legends as yet, he hasn't built for the future. A lot of the club's young players have 10 or so games. Given the club hasn't really been a power side since 1998 (give or take the odd finals appearance) these players should have 40-50 games by now.

I'm delighted it's not Geelong's problem anymore, but from the outside looking in, I don't see you improving with him as coach.
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DaveW

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#27
Re: Re: The beginnings of a Plan ...

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
It would take a lot for them to say to sponsors and supporters we're rubbish, and we're hoping to be good one day soon. there may well be benefits to that, but I can't think that will be acceptable to the corporate stakeholders in the club. We're a big club, and I can't see anyone agreeing to act like a little one.
**** the corporate stakeholders. Let's do what's in the best interests of the club ON-FIELD.

We are a big club, we need to start acting like one. Big clubs hunt, they exploit their advantages, and they look to feed on the weaknesses of the struggling underclass of clubs. Happens all over of the world, let’s be more Yankees than Mets, more Manchester United than City, let’s be aggressive. Enough ‘for the good of the game’, more for the good of the AFC.
Two words: Salary cap.

I surely don't have to tell you that Man U and the Yankees are in competitions where they can exploit their significant financial advantages. So the comparison is meaningless.
 

marvin

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#28
Re: Re: The beginnings of a Plan ...

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
I can distill my view thus:

We are a big club, we need to start acting like one. Big clubs hunt, they exploit their advantages, and they look to feed on the weaknesses of the struggling underclass of clubs. Happens all over of the world, let’s be more Yankees than Mets, more Manchester United than City, let’s be aggressive. Enough ‘for the good of the game’, more for the good of the AFC.

Coaching? untried coaches is little league . Poorer clubs go the untried route because they are looking for bargains, ready to lose them to big clubs. We should choose our guy, for me: Wallace or Eade, and give them free reign to bring in their own staff. Ala Matthews and Graeme Allen. If you are our coach, you coach as best you see fit. John Reid will no longer be in the box, no one will look over you shoulder; that’s the good bit, but we expect results. We will pay you top dollar, and you will deliver the best results possible. Easy to understand, if you fail, you’re out.

As I said my mantra is big thinking, big clubs, big hunting. You can’t have it both ways, if we will not rebuild because we’re not that sort of club, let’s act like it. If we are not prepared to act in the way our status affords, then we should rebuild. I.e. act like a little club. One or the other, none of this hybrid stuff.
Great posting, crow-mosone.

I decided to look at Joe Torre's record in management prior to coming to the Yankees. It makes for interesting reading:

- 15 seasons as manager
- 1 divisional championship (equivalent of minor premiership) and then out in straight sets in the NL championship
- 4 "wooden spoons"
- 47% games winning percentage

Why did the Yankees go for him?

Alex Ferguson had obviously had tremendous sucess at Aberdeen. (In a way, that probably parallels having success for an SANFL club or in the VFL now). In his first 4 years in charge at ManU, no success came (runners up in '88, but down to 11th the next year and flirted with relegation). Some pretty ordinary recruiting was mixed in there (Mickey Phelan, Neil Webb, Danny Wallace...)

Why did ManU stick with him?

What I'm getting at is that these great clubs have one characteristic that has distinguished them. STABILITY. Both the Yankees and ManU were relative basket cases through the 70s/80s as they changed managers more than they changes their socks.

Eventually, something clicked. They worked out who the right man was for them; they were prepared to let him make a few mistakes; but they have stuck with him. (Look at Essendon with Sheedy, Carlton with Parkin - they were prepared to ride some down years and the results came).

Whoever coaches the Crows from the start of 2005, providing they have an appropriate long term plan in place, MUST be given the assurance from the club and from the supporters that they are there for the long haul. Even if he makes some mistakes and unearths some duds to go with the diamonds. Ayres may be responsible for getting Lawrence Angwin to the club, but all successful head coaches have drafting skeletons in the cupboard - Daniel McAllister, Michael Stevens, Murray Vance...). Let's not crucify next year's coach if the kid he drafts doesn't turn into Nick Riewoldt overnight. (I saw Nick Riewoldt's first game and he didn't turn into Nick Riewoldt overmight, either).

A bit rambly, I know, but there's my piece.
 

crowmyzone

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#29
Originally posted by Kristof
Okay - some of this will sound harsh, but it's my thoughts on what the Crows should do.

The first thing is recognize that finishing 9th - 11th is much worse than finishing 14th. And, after recognizing this, we call Ayres into our office, thank him for his efforts, and fire him, effective immediately. We give D Jarman the job, after letting him know that he's not coaching for his future and has been chosen because he won't be trying to take stop-gap measures to protect his job for next year.

Because it's not about a position or two on the ladder this year, it's about answering some questions that will help secure the future of the club.

First thing we do - we relegate Doughty, Mattner, Shirley and Gallagher to the SANFL, where they play out the year. Sorry - we know what you can do, and you're not part of our future. We put any of them on the table at the end of the year, hoping for a pick late in the draft, but assuming we'll have to delist.

We bring in Smart and Mark Stevens into the side, so that there are some veterans for the juniors to have around. True veterans with success, no twenty five year old nobodies. And players who will add their knowledge now, but will be leaving at the end of the year, so the juniors will be able to progress further in 2005 with added responsibility.

We tell Reilly that he is going to be on the wing for the rest of the year. We tell Watts he is going to be at centre half forward, that it's okay to stuff up and make mistakes as long as he's attacking the footy, and he is going to have an orange with Carey at half time each game to hear what he's doing wrong. We tell Perrie that he's going to be at full forward for the rest of the year, and he's going to run and jump at everything. We bring in Krueger when he's fit and we let Bock stay in the back pocket and Henschel in the back half. We give players like Skipworth, Schuback, Bode and Ladhams enough time in their appropriate spot for us to KNOW. Plus we try other options at full-back beside Bassett, to see if we can build that from within or if we need to find that in the offseason.

The season plays out, and we make some hard decisions. We've built up Perrie's value, and we trade him. We delist/retire Burns, Carey, Doughty, Gallagher, Mattner, Shirley, Clarke, Smart and Stevens. A lot, but that's okay. We hopefully have a priority pick - I know, that's hard to stomach - and we're bringing in three quality kids at picks two, four and eighteen (say), plus the pre-season pick for someone who we're stealing away from a Vic team because we have so much salary cap room. We speculate late in the draft, to see if we can come up with a one or two diamonds in the rough. We seriously look at Andrews, Hazell and Parker.

We trade Perrie and Burton, and we seriously look at offers for other players who may have a higher value on the market than they currently have for us. We HAVE to discuss moving McLeod, Goodwin and even Johncock for the right offer - the only player than the club deems untouchable for emotional reasons is Ricciuto. Welsh, Bode and Massie would also be on the table.

We try to put a package together for Ottens - but need to know that we have enough hand to get him preseason if Richmond act like smartarses. We prioritise at least one of the SA draftees from 2002 - players like Schulz, Bell, Faulkner - as it was a disgrace that it could be such a deep and strong year for SA draftees and we let them all (bar Jericho) leave the state.

Who we trade for will be based on a position of knowing better what we really have with our juniors and midlist players. Do we have a full back? Are we okay for wingmen and small forwards? Do we have enough ruck stocks to survive the next couple of years until our pick 4/18 matures, or is that a priority? Do have enough speed?

Finally, we put together the right coaching staff. Carey and Jarman for forwards. Bring in Rehn. Look at the coaching freeagents such as Wallace and see if any are good fits. But start thinking NOW.
GREAT POST
 

DaveW

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#30
Re: Re: Re: The beginnings of a Plan ...

Originally posted by marvin
Eventually, something clicked. They worked out who the right man was for them; they were prepared to let him make a few mistakes; but they have stuck with him. (Look at Essendon with Sheedy, Carlton with Parkin - they were prepared to ride some down years and the results came).
I don't agree with this either.

Parkin got premierships in his first two years at Carlton and was sacked three years later. After his recall, he took the Blues to the GF in his third year back and a premiership in his fifth year.

Sheedy took Essendon to a GF in his third year and premierships in his fourth and fifth.

Sure the clubs were prepared to ride some tough times with these coaches (although not initially with Parkin), but only because these coaches had proven they could deliver success.
 

Crow-mosone

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#31
Re: Re: Re: The beginnings of a Plan ...

Originally posted by DaveW
**** the corporate stakeholders. Let's do what's in the best interests of the club ON-FIELD.

Two words: Salary cap.

I surely don't have to tell you that Man U and the Yankees are in competitions where they can exploit their significant financial advantages. So the comparison is meaningless.
Dave,

no less than I would expect.

1. corporate sponsors and stakeholders? - you tell em. would you like the phone number?

2. salary cap - thanks for reminding me, I didn't realise with the potential retirements, no major contract renewals and the possibility of trading large cap contracts, that there would not room.
thanks for your incisive understanding of the issues involved.
 

DaveW

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#32
Re: Re: Re: Re: The beginnings of a Plan ...

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Dave,

no less than I would expect.

1. corporate sponsors and stakeholders? - you tell em. would you like the phone number?

2. salary cap - thanks for reminding me, I didn't realise with the potential retirements, no major contract renewals and the possibility of trading large cap contracts, that there would not room.
thanks for your incisive understanding of the issues involved.
1. We're not going to lose sponsors because of a few bad years. We have significant other advantages. (i.e. We're the most supported team in a big football town.) I don't understand why you even mentioned it.

2. That doesn't give us carte blanche on the players we can go after; as with MU and NYY.
 

Crow-mosone

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#33
Dave,

it's a culture thing, corporate cash is a bandwagon. Some will go the long haul, but who do you think is in the luxury boxes during rebuilding phases? the AFC has a corp culture, and expectations of what is acceptable.

As for salary cap, unlike the NBA, we do not need to take back salary. In the same way Melbourne traded Woewoedin and his huge contract for a draft pick, it's all about the strategy you employ. we have options if we choose to use them.

Now I am NOT suggesting we do this, or this would happen. but as an example, if we traded a Mcleod for a jared Brennan say, the space that clears would then allow us to pursue another free agent if we so chose.
We are not constrained in the ways we dump salary.
 

DaveW

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#34
If keeping hold of sponsors and corporate fans is the clubs number one concern, then I would say they need to get their priorities straight.

How about trying to figure out how we're going to win another premiership?
 

conVINCEd

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#35
Crow-mosone, I know your proposed trade was only an example, but just for the record I never want to see Jarad Brennan in a Crows guernsey.

I agree with Dave on this, why the hell should we bend over backwards for the sponsors and be a middle-of-the-road team? As a club we surely have one goal - to win a premiership, and then when we win one, to win another one, etc.

If that means playing more kids rather than filling our list with guys in their mid-20's who will never improve, then so be it, and bring it on.
 

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Crow-mosone

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#37
Originally posted by McLeod23
Crow-mosone, I know your proposed trade was only an example, but just for the record I never want to see Jarad Brennan in a Crows guernsey.

I agree with Dave on this, why the hell should we bend over backwards for the sponsors and be a middle-of-the-road team? As a club we surely have one goal - to win a premiership, and then when we win one, to win another one, etc.

If that means playing more kids rather than filling our list with guys in their mid-20's who will never improve, then so be it, and bring it on.
brennan was a name of the top of my head, that's all.

I am not saying that we don't care about winning, supporters etc. But that we are a big club with many stakeholders who will not accept rebuilding lightly. these include corporate interests, and the expectations of the public at large.

Big clubs, act like big clubs, not little ones.
 

Stiffy_18

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#38
Re: Re: Re: The beginnings of a Plan ...

Originally posted by DaveW
1. **** the corporate stakeholders. Let's do what's in the best interests of the club ON-FIELD.

2. Two words: Salary cap.

I surely don't have to tell you that Man U and the Yankees are in competitions where they can exploit their significant financial advantages. So the comparison is meaningless.
1. The only way a club will be strong on-field is if they are strong off-field.

2. Substitue Man Utd with LA Lakers. NBA also has salary cap but it doesn't stop Lakers from being the mst successful franchise in the NBA.

Environments might be different but the principle is the same.
 

conVINCEd

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#39
Originally posted by jc67
Who the hell are you talking about??????????? Huddo?
Not Huddo.

More refering to guys like Doughty, Gallagher, Ladhams, Shirley - not saying we should dump all of them, just that I don't want to continually trade picks for guys like these.
 

Stiffy_18

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#40
Originally posted by McLeod23
Not Huddo.

More refering to guys like Doughty, Gallagher, Ladhams, Shirley - not saying we should dump all of them, just that I don't want to continually trade picks for guys like these.
We haven't traded picks for those players :confused:

Doughty and Gallagher were Rookies who were elevated tot he senior list. Ladhams was picked up in the pre-season draft after Essendon reluctantly delisted him because he wanted to come back home and Shirley was pick 67. Hell, for a pick 67 in a weak draft I reckon Shirley was a good pick up.
 

jc67

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#41
Originally posted by McLeod23
Not Huddo.

More refering to guys like Doughty, Gallagher, Ladhams, Shirley - not saying we should dump all of them, just that I don't want to continually trade picks for guys like these.
all of these guys are very good "depth" players.
I do think that we havent seent the best of gallagher though, he might still make it.
the others well....... if we could get something in a trade:rolleyes: :cool:
but you did say something like a team of them.
 

conVINCEd

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#42
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
We haven't traded picks for those players :confused:

Doughty and Gallagher were Rookies who were elevated tot he senior list. Ladhams was picked up in the pre-season draft after Essendon reluctantly delisted him because he wanted to come back home and Shirley was pick 67. Hell, for a pick 67 in a weak draft I reckon Shirley was a good pick up.
I know Stiffy. I simply meant that I don't want to mortgage our future by taking the Carlton road of continually recycling players, and never rebuilding. Obviously we won't be using the St. Kilda method, rather an Essendon-style rebuild on the run.
 

Stiffy_18

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#47
Sheedy is the master of "rebuilding" on the run. He introduces 2-3 youngsters into his 22 every year and trades away decent players for draft picks or youngsters from another club. Essendons recruiting over the years has been top notch.

You have to have a good base to do rebuilding on the run. We have players approaching the end of their careers so we will have to hit rock bottom eventually for a couple of years before we can do rebuilding on the run.
 

conVINCEd

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#48
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Sheedy is the master of "rebuilding" on the run. He introduces 2-3 youngsters into his 22 every year and trades away decent players for draft picks or youngsters from another club. Essendons recruiting over the years has been top notch.

You have to have a good base to do rebuilding on the run. We have players approaching the end of their careers so we will have to hit rock bottom eventually for a couple of years before we can do rebuilding on the run.
Sheeds is the best in the business at building with bargain buys. (nice alliteration:) ).

Cupido and McPhee are two prime examples. I wouldn't mind a McPhee clone in our team. Can play tall, runs like a midfielder, tough as they come, great skills, doesn't mind the rough stuff.

Anyway, I don't think we have to hit rock bottom. Roo, Macca and Goody will still be around for another 3-4 years, and we have Johncock, Reilly and Schuback coming through, as well as Stinger. Obviously we need another couple of future draftees to step up but we should be alright.

As far as our talls, if Stevo can stay fit, he will be a huge help in developing our spine. We have McGregor as a rock, and need to develop two of Watts, Bock, Rutten, Hentschel, Parker and anyone else I've forgotten (just remembered Freddy) into class KPP. We'll probably need to draft another quality one, which we have time to do. Throw in the likes of Begley, Massie, Jericho, Torney, Hart and Edwards as flankers. Trade Burton.

Doesn't look hopeless. I think we will be a sound, if not high quality team quicker than a lot of people think. From there, we can only go up.
 

macca23

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#49
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Sheedy is the master of "rebuilding" on the run. He introduces 2-3 youngsters into his 22 every year and trades away decent players for draft picks or youngsters from another club. Essendons recruiting over the years has been top notch.

You have to have a good base to do rebuilding on the run. We have players approaching the end of their careers so we will have to hit rock bottom eventually for a couple of years before we can do rebuilding on the run.
Correct about Sheedy Stiffy. He's the master of it IMO.

Interestingly enough, most of the players he trades look like good players at Essendon, but are pretty ordinary with their new clubs.
 

Stiffy_18

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#50
Originally posted by macca23
Interestingly enough, most of the players he trades look like good players at Essendon, but are pretty ordinary with their new clubs.
Thats because he is a master that plays those players in appropriate roles and gets the best out of them, builds up their value and is more than happy to trade them fro some quality youngsters or good draft picks.

Take Jacobs for example. He had Jacobs play a role in a rock solid Bombers backline to perfection. This role made Jacobs look better than he really is. Jacobs puts together 2 good seasons playing that role and is still reasonably young. In the mean time Sheeds sings his praises. Come trade period Sheedy is more than happy to trade him and in the process gets a top draft pick.

And so it goes in circles. The real good players that Sheed uncovers, he keeps, the ones that look good but are not as good as they appear he trades for something better.
 
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