The benchwarmers

[Fred Ziffel]

I'd argue giving Sylvia a game before he earns it is far closer to what we've been doing these past 18 years than leaving him in the WAFL out of principle is.

The counter call is , it could have won us the Hawthorn and Sydney games.

I think we are playing a dangerous game with Sylvia not unlike what we did to Jack Anthony , Principled with no winners.

 

[blue shark]

The club has made two mistakes in my opinion, Sylvia should of played against the Dons, even as the sub, then dropping Simpson from the
Sydney game. We are lacking skills that both players add to the team.
Sylvia as the sub still delivers that message, that he wont be a starter without great effort, against Sydney our kicking, disposal was poor, and
we didn't replace Walters. What happens if there are more injuries?
How do we improve from last year?
The list is looking bare of genuine midfield depth, quality to take us to the next level.

 

[pokerspiv]

Sylvia should have played against Hawthorn imo. Simpson should not have been dropped last week. Hannath should never have played ahead of Clarke. Taberner should not have been subbed off against Sydney. Lachie Neale should have started on the ground in the GF. The list of selection errors we've made lately is as long as Sandilands' arm.

The players in the twos must be rightly thinking that they will only get a game in case of injury or suspension. Because the senior players in the team seem undroppable regardless of form.

 

[manpurple]

Could Duffy be a bit of a dark horse selection? Seems a good like for like replacement for Ballas to me.

Could have and IMHO would have been a good replacement. Was starting to hit his straps with Peel until he did his shoulder. Not sure he is fit enough yet.

Yeah, he's a senior player, that's the point. Runs on the board? Debateable.
Kids only get a game if the seniors aren't available. This is the same criticism levelled at Lyon by St Kilda supporters.

A few people have made this comment but I have to say that the evidence is not so conclusive. Say they are recovering still or whatever but Sutty has held his spot against all comers this season. Whilst Sutty was in Ibbo played for peel as did C Pearce, Suban missed, Silvagni was dropped, Colin has not played, Mora is over 22 and so it goes.

Sylvia should have played against Hawthorn imo. Simpson should not have been dropped last week. Hannath should never have played ahead of Clarke. Taberner should not have been subbed off against Sydney. Lachie Neale should have started on the ground in the GF. The list of selection errors we've made lately is as long as Sandilands' arm.

The players in the twos must be rightly thinking that they will only get a game in case of injury or suspension. Because the senior players in the team seem undroppable regardless of form.

Simpson - agreed.
Sylvia - possibly.
Clarke - not reality, he wasn't fit at the start of the year
Tabs - maybe. It just shows that despite all comments to the contrary our KP stocks are at best lacking experience and worst not up to it. We need Gumby back (wow never thought I would say that)
Neale - I have no problem with him starting on the bench in GF but I think that a different sub should have been made.

 

[pokerspiv]

A few people have made this comment but I have to say that the evidence is not so conclusive. Say they are recovering still or whatever but Sutty has held his spot against all comers this season. Whilst Sutty was in Ibbo played for peel as did C Pearce, Suban missed, Silvagni was dropped, Colin has not played, Mora is over 22 and so it goes.

Ibbo and Clancee were returning from long-term injury and were back in the side as soon as they were deemed fit - at the expense of Sheridan.

Suban missed only because he was suspended. He's played every game that he's been available for.

Sylvia is also deemed not yet fit enough by conditioning staff.

Lyon has said Morabito won't be available until about round 8 (not sure why but that's the story).

The only fit, available guy not getting a game really is Silvagni. And that's because he's really only capable of playing one position.

 

[manpurple]

Ibbo and Clancee were returning from long-term injury and were back in the side as soon as they were deemed fit - at the expense of Sheridan.

Suban missed only because he was suspended. He's played every game that he's been available for.

Sylvia is also deemed not yet fit enough by conditioning staff.

Lyon has said Morabito won't be available until about round 8 (not sure why but that's the story).

The only fit, available guy not getting a game really is Silvagni. And that's because he's really only capable of playing one position.

Maybe my point wasn't clear.

It doesn't matter what the reason is, Sutty hasn't missed a match since somewhere in the middle of last year. Despite most people, at some point, saying they would drop him for player X. He is still there. Against all others, he is still there. Last year Ibbo, Mzungu, and Duffield were all dropped and he remained.
Please don't forget that RTB said something like "you don't run a champ in the country cup". Certainly Mayne, Pav and Fyfe didn't come back via Peel. So it is perfectly reasonable to say that the others who have did because they are not "obviously better" than those on the park.

My point is that no matter what we all think and say Sutty is still in the team. Make any excuse/reason you wish but he is there and others are not. He does not fit the category.

 

[pokerspiv]

I wasn't really talking about Sutty. I am saying that the only guys that get dropped each week are the younger guys, despite them playing quite well and having a few of our older brigade underperforming.

 

[Gekko71]

I wasn't really talking about Sutty. I am saying that the only guys that get dropped each week are the younger guys, despite them playing quite well and having a few of our older brigade underperforming.

I agree it's frustrating - but then again Ross has been coaching at AFL level since 1996 and since coming to Freo has given us a far higher level of consistent success than we have enjoyed at any point over the last 20 years.

If he wants to play the seniors first then so be it, it's a winning strategy - if however he was to start complaining about his 2nd string players lacking experience when the team is hit by injury (like it is now), then I would definitely be raising an eyebrow or two.

 

[blue shark]

I agree it's frustrating - but then again Ross has been coaching at AFL level since 1996 and since coming to Freo has given us a far higher level of consistent success than we have enjoyed at any point over the last 20 years.

If he wants to play the seniors first then so be it, it's a winning strategy - if however he was to start complaining about his 2nd string players lacking experience when the team is hit by injury (like it is now), then I would definitely be raising an eyebrow or two.

Every team wants to improve from last year, where will our improvement come from? We have to use the sub role, and get games into some
of these kids, Suban as the sub?

 

[Gekko71]

In regards to 'who to use as the sub', I think giving all your most promising young kids time on-field on a rotating basis through being picked as the sub is probably the best approach.

Sutty was a super sub often in 2011 and would rack up 10 possession in a quarter - it was his springboard into the team. Sherro also picked up some good game time this way prior to racking up full games, as did Lachie for this matter, and Josh was suppsed to have done the same thing.

What doesn't work IMO is using the sub position as a transition path OUT of the team, as was done with Suban. If Subes wasn't performing well enough to hold his spot as a full time player, then he should be dropped entirely straight away and work his way back just like the young kids. If he can't perform over four quarters due to lack of form, he's not going to be able to condense his full game efforts into performing brilliantly for one - he's just blocking other young players best entry pathway into the team.

As for where our improvement will come from, I don't think it's an accident that we have chosen to draft highly experienced free agents to fill key positions and perform specific roles in the team - training youth takes time, and a fair percentage of a club's youth-picks often just don't have the goods at AFL level.

Frankly I think RTB was really looking to Gumby and Sylvia specifically to provide a bit of a combined spark to the team this year, but with injury, form, fitness and attitude issues to contend with, it just hasn't happened so far.

 

[Freoforever86]

I'd say RTB knows what he's doing selection wise. We don't question him when we're winning.
I've heard that Sylvia got to pre season out of shape as per Freo standards. Melbournes fitness and skin folds weren't up to ours (just what I'm told, who knows) so he's had to do the extra fitness.
I've watched a few Peel games, Morabito was being eased through the first few weeks for sure. Loose man behind the ball stuff. He's missed so much footy, just needed him to get some ball. Now he's being pushed into the middle more. I think he will play v Geelong as the sub in Pavs 300th. Big game, big emotion, definitely a RTB thing to do.
Apeness is close to debut I think. Looks the goods. Bigger than Tabs.

 

[Dockernut]

I'd love him to play but are his skills really up to AFL standards? Appreciate the views from people that have closely watched Peel played. From the televised games I've watched, his skills still seem to rusty.

No. His skills are still very rusty. That said, he still has a mountain of confidence. Gets it, tucks it under and runs. He's also hitting packs (and players) hard. But more importantly he still has freaking huge mits and can roost it a mile. In the current circumstances, with Tabs still looking a fair ways off, I'd like to see Mora come in as a leading forward - against the Roos.

 

[clogged]

The Sylvia issue is a red herring. The real problem is that the structure is wrong. Suban was a poor sub choice and the defensive forward position may have outlived its usefulness.

 

[Wigarus]

The counter call is , it could have won us the Hawthorn and Sydney games.

I think we are playing a dangerous game with Sylvia not unlike what we did to Jack Anthony , Principled with no winners.

You have your wires totally crossed.

Firstly the club did nothing wrong by Anthony, he was recruited for nothing in the PSD and swapped states because he was let go by the Pies and Freo were the only interested party. I don't like the way a lot of supporters seem to treat the players they don't like but if that has any bearing on their on field performance they likely do not have the mental toughness to make it at AFL level anyway.

Secondly, playing a player based on reputation and seniority over young inexperienced players that have been performing creates a culture where young players believe that no matter how well they play they are still behind the first graders. This is the way it was under Harvey and every other coach we have ever had.

 

[theGav56]

Sylvia should have played against Hawthorn imo. Simpson should not have been dropped last week. Hannath should never have played ahead of Clarke. Taberner should not have been subbed off against Sydney. Lachie Neale should have started on the ground in the GF. The list of selection errors we've made lately is as long as Sandilands' arm.

The players in the twos must be rightly thinking that they will only get a game in case of injury or suspension. Because the senior players in the team seem undroppable regardless of form.

Nice list of young players getting games at senior level. Neale the only one who clearly deserves game time in that list, or has any claim to being best 22. The list does not include Sutcliffe or Sheridan who have had significant stints in the big league.

If you really want to win this debate you need to run a comparison with the other top 4 from last season and compare games by young players.

 

[Wigarus]

The Sylvia issue is a red herring. The real problem is that the structure is wrong. Suban was a poor sub choice and the defensive forward position may have outlived its usefulness.

I agree and disagree. Our forward line is dysfunctional but I hardly think it is De Boers fault.

I think its quite simple:
-Mayne is out of form / injured (whatever, we aren't getting a result from him)
-Lack of a second (and now first) crumbing small forward.
-Lack of a second tall target that can reliably impact on the score board.

I think our best possible forward line is two talls, (Pav and Bradley - maybe Gumby), Two smalls (Ballas and Walters) and Mayne as a third tall. All fit and firing I think there is more than enough scoring power there.

None of the replacements for these guys have anywhere near their x - factor. Crozier hasn't fired a shot at AFL level and I don't expect him tothis year at least, Neale isn't a forward, Duffy would probably be the closest but who knows? Clarke, Griffin, Hannath, Taberner, Apeness are all either ruckmen first and forward last or too young and inexperienced to have any real impact.

 

[Wigarus]

Nice list of young players getting games at senior level. Neale the only one who clearly deserves game time in that list, or has any claim to being best 22. The list does not include Sutcliffe or Sheridan who have had significant stints in the big league.

If you really want to win this debate you need to run a comparison with the other top 4 from last season and compare games by young players.

I loved the bit where he said the senior players were undroppable and that his favourite senior player can't get a game.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

You have your wires totally crossed.

Firstly the club did nothing wrong by Anthony, he was recruited for nothing in the PSD and swapped states because he was let go by the Pies and Freo were the only interested party. I don't like the way a lot of supporters seem to treat the players they don't like but if that has any bearing on their on field performance they likely do not have the mental toughness to make it at AFL level anyway.

Secondly, playing a player based on reputation and seniority over young inexperienced players that have been performing creates a culture where young players believe that no matter how well they play they are still behind the first graders. This is the way it was under Harvey and every other coach we have ever had.

No crossed wires at all.

Fremantle needed, exactly, a big bodied tough inside mid in the Hawks game; we had no Fyfe and no Barlow and played two unfit players who should not have been out there, in Mayne and Walters.

We could have and should have played Colin Sylvia in that game and especially on the MCG where he has played more games than the entire Freo side combined. and he wasn't a mug in those day either.
Fremantle stuffed it up but.... but, we were principled. So we were right, but flogged, yes flogged but it is a great concession because we showed principles and stubborn values.
Sometimes you just have to give yourself the best chance of winning. We did not.

 

[E Shed]

No crossed wires at all.

Fremantle needed, exactly, a big bodied tough inside mid in the Hawks game; we had no Fyfe and no Barlow and played two unfit players who should not have been out there, in Mayne and Walters.

We could have and should have played Colin Sylvia in that game and especially on the MCG where he has played more games than the entire Freo side combined. and he wasn't a mug in those day either.
Fremantle stuffed it up but.... but, we were principled. So we were right, but flogged, yes flogged but it is a great concession because we showed principles and stubborn values.
Sometimes you just have to give yourself the best chance of winning. We did not.

I mostly agree with you Fred and I would concede its not a tenable position unless you want to go back to Harvey's Dockers. I was talking about it with a mate at dinner and we both thought Sylvia should have played against the Hawks and that Simpson should have played against Sydney last week. I still think both those things should have happened and I think for the short term at least we'd be better off. But you don't get the RTB discipline and consistency by taking the short way through these things.

 

[Wigarus]

No crossed wires at all.

Fremantle needed, exactly, a big bodied tough inside mid in the Hawks game; we had no Fyfe and no Barlow and played two unfit players who should not have been out there, in Mayne and Walters.

We could have and should have played Colin Sylvia in that game and especially on the MCG where he has played more games than the entire Freo side combined. and he wasn't a mug in those day either.
Fremantle stuffed it up but.... but, we were principled. So we were right, but flogged, yes flogged but it is a great concession because we showed principles and stubborn values.
Sometimes you just have to give yourself the best chance of winning. We did not.

That is an extremely short sighted view. Promote someone to the senior squad that is disobeying team rules and has not performed the way he should have? He wasn't even showing good form in the WAFL.

Or is it his MCG experience that we value so much? Because if it is I'm pretty sure we could get half of the Dee's squad if we traded them Fyfe. He has barely any MCG Experience.

If we went the Ziffel way and won all our round 4 games at the expense of team discipline and couldn't make or win finals I'm pretty sure we would be a bunch of pissed off supporters. You sound exactly like E Shed 2 years ago saying that we should abandon the Walters treatment and just play him because he had X factor. It reeks of weak willed desperation imo.

The coaching staff and leadership group will have a set of KPI's that they expect every player to meet in order to play and if they don't meet them they shouldn't be playing.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

That is an extremely short sighted view. Promote someone to the senior squad that is disobeying team rules and has not performed the way he should have? He wasn't even showing good form in the WAFL.

Or is it his MCG experience that we value so much? Because if it is I'm pretty sure we could get half of the Dee's squad if we traded them Fyfe. He has barely any MCG Experience.

If we went the Ziffel way and won all our round 4 games at the expense of team discipline and couldn't make or win finals I'm pretty sure we would be a bunch of pissed off supporters. You sound exactly like E Shed 2 years ago saying that we should abandon the Walters treatment and just play him because he had X factor. It reeks of weak willed desperation imo.

The coaching staff and leadership group will have a set of KPI's that they expect every player to meet in order to play and if they don't meet them they shouldn't be playing.

Name the team rules that Colin Sylvia was disobeying leading up to the Hawks game.
He gathered 12 possessions in the first qtr for Peel before getting injured in his last outing for them. He had overcome the injury and was fit to go against Hawks.
Barely any MCG experience ? ; Like I said he has played more games there personally than the entire Freo side .
Why go from Sublime to ridiculous by suggesting we could get the entire Dees team for Fyfe. What is that supposed to mean ?
What exactly would we be doing at the expense of team discipline by selecting our best option of winning ?
I'll give you a bunch of pissed off supporters, just keep on losing but in your view that is fine because we can hold our head up high for having disciplines.

Still losing games, we have had experience at that.
Principle only goes so far like Kerry packer said to the ACB " You are really men of principles so name your price and be clever whores ".

 

[E Shed]

If we went the Ziffel way and won all our round 4 games at the expense of team discipline and couldn't make or win finals I'm pretty sure we would be a bunch of pissed off supporters. You sound exactly like E Shed 2 years ago saying that we should abandon the Walters treatment and just play him because he had X factor. It reeks of weak willed desperation imo.

Well Wig if you read my post above you'll notice I'm calling for the long game here but simply acknowledging the temptation of playing the short one.
The thing is we may well lose Simpson and (less likely Sylvia) to any immediate purpose this year.
So does it piss me off that Sylvia/Simpson won't be playing for the immediate future, yes. do I understand why? yes. do I like it? No.

 

[Wigarus]

Well Wig if you read my post above you'll notice I'm calling for the long game here but simply acknowledging the temptation of playing the short one.
The thing is we may well lose Simpson and (less likely Sylvia) to any immediate purpose this year.
So does it piss me off that Sylvia/Simpson won't be playing for the immediate future, yes. do I understand why? yes. do I like it? No.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you. More just pointing out that history has proved Ross to be right in that situation (which is very similar to this one).

 

[Wigarus]

Name the team rules that Colin Sylvia was disobeying leading up to the Hawks game.

You name the team rules first and I'll tell you which ones he broke.

He gathered 12 possessions in the first qtr for Peel before getting injured in his last outing for them. He had overcome the injury and was fit to go against Hawks.

You think 12 possessions in 1 quarter (once) is a good enough performance to be an automatic inclusion?Because Hannath did that 2 weeks ago and Sheridan did it on the weekend. I don't see you bitching about them not being included.

Barely any MCG experience ? ; Like I said he has played more games there personally than the entire Freo side .
Why go from Sublime to ridiculous by suggesting we could get the entire Dees team for Fyfe. What is that supposed to mean ?

I was referring to Fyfe's MCG experience. Basically I'm saying that mcg experience isn't worth a pinch of goat shit. if it was, Melbourne wouldn't be less than a pinch of goat shit.

What exactly would we be doing at the expense of team discipline by selecting our best option of winning ?
I'll give you a bunch of pissed of supporters, just keep on losing but in your view that is fine because we can hold our head up high for having disciplines.

Still losing games, we have had experience at that.
Principle only goes so far like Kerry packer said to the ACB " You are really men of principles so name your price and be clever whores ".

Ross Lyon has broken more records as a coach of this football club than I care to mention. I'm pretty sure he doesn't do things just for the principal of the matter. There is an end game and you are obviously too stupid to see it. I think that if he thinks it is worth staking his reputation as a winning coach on then I will support him and assume that he knows more about the inner workings of the club than Fred Zimple.

 

[E Shed]

I wasn't trying to pick a fight. More just pointing out that history has proved Ross to be right in that situation (which is very similar to this one).

Sure, if you read my post just above yours I actually said:
I think for the short term at least we'd be better off. But you don't get the RTB discipline and consistency by taking the short way through these things.
So yea, I get it. But I don't have to make these decisions, I'm a fan and you know what? I'd much rather see Simpson playing footy this week than Matt DeBoer playing another brilliant coaches game where he checks off all the KPI's and does the team thing and gives great effort and has **** all possessions and kicks no goals.
And yes I understand the futility/hypocrisy of my position because I was one who would have sold my soul to get the consistency of this team over the crazy flakiness of older incarnations of Freo.