The Better "Fab 4"..

[Prem87]

Geelong: Chapman Selwood Ablett Bartel
Hawthorn: Mitchell Sewell Hodge Burgoyne

Can't wait to see these two go head to head. Now that Chapman is their MVP and now more of a mid I would just take Geelongs over Hawthorns, just.

 

[Prem87]

Yeah I remember that game. I think he kicked 4 goals too.

If you compare the midfields I like the Eagles more.

Cuz, Judd, Kerr, Cox, Embley

Voss, Aka, Black, Power, Lappin

I think the eagles midfielder has more x-factor and are maybe just better to watch. It's hard to compare premierships because the lions had Bradshaw, Lynch and a young J. Brown up forward lol, fair forward line.

The Eagles Fab 4 were more dynamic, explosive and ran rings around them.

 

[skywalker1977]

It has nothing to do with bias, it was based on clearances, a pretty good indication of how good a player is at getting clearances don't you think? (As i said, Mitchell lead the league in clearances)

kouta was the best clearance player for more than 5 years straight its based on fact that he was the best while mitchell was around.

Here is an article from that year, highlighting this:
http://www.nab.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/nab/nab/home/about_us/8/5/22/66

There was also a thread early this year about the 3 best clearance players in the league. Look it up and see what the neutrals think (plenty of clearance stats in there).

hayes and two others
but neither was mitchel

That has no reflection on Hodge's ability (or performance that year), plenty of good players have played in poor sides (Tony Lockett at StKIlda for example)

or dunstall in a struggling hawks outfit

locket was a brownlow medalist 6 time century goalscorer
hodgey didnt perform to the level he is at now

hardly worth noting that he wouldnt be half the player is now if was at the eagles when judd was around.

Think you answered your own point...a team getting thrashed every week is not going to attract brownlow votes, regardless of an individual's quality. When was the last time a bottom four team produced a brownlow medallist? Besides, finishing behind the likes of Cousins and Judd (superstars whose team made the GF) is no shame, especially as a 21 y.o.

yes it will, he is the only one getting votes and stands out in his team
whereas judd and the rest steal votes off one another

This seems like contradictory points. If you're suggesting it is easier to play well/star in a struggling team, I disagree. Most footy followers (especially those that have played) will tell you it easier to play well in a good team than a bad one. Plenty of examples of this (Daniel Kerr being an obvious one).

when u have a team filled with talent its harder to poll votes, most of the teams winning brownlows have usually been out of finals or runners up in comparison to not

First of all, that is irrelevant to the point. Who has the 'better fab 4' now is dependant on current form and out put (not draft number or past performance). Secondly, it is completely false anyway. Luke Hodge will win his 3rd All Australian jumper this year, his 2nd B&F (also top 2 in premiership year) and was arguably the difference between Hawthorn having their 10th flag rather than approaching a 20 year drought. In fact, I would argue tat he has achieved more than nearly every other number 1 pick so far. (Certainly more than Lounder, Gaspar, Johnstone, Fraser, Waterhouse, Banik, Headland, White - the list goes on)

whether he does or doesnt

u have roughy and lance that were the catalyst to the flag been won not hodge

 

[LordJimmy]

I can't believe this is even a thread. The only player in Carlton's 4 that compares to any in Collingwood's 4 is Kruezer, and he's injured at the moment.

 

[skywalker1977]

ha ha imagine Fev in that culture.

I don't think they would have won 4 because the drug culture would have destroyed the dream team you speak of before they had the chance.

Think back to when the eagles contested their first grand final in 2005, if fev was a part of the team from that year, they would have won the game easily, he would only hvae needed 3 goals and given he averages 3 and a bit a game, the following year fev wins the coleman in the wooden spoon side, how many more would he have kicked with the premiership team and given them back to back.
the 2007 grand final decided would have come to fev been the difference given the cats didnt boast a champion full forward and that the battle of the midfields and the supply fev would have got would have been unbelievable.

 

[DarwinRoo]

McCartney, Lennon, Harrison, Starr

/thread

 

[RandB]

McCartney, Lennon, Harrison, Starr

/thread

Ono you didn't!

 

[jcnx]

Wasn't there already a poll on the polls board for the best midfield of the decade which included the lions and eagles along with Geelong and another?

Lions just ahead of eagles for me. Their period of dominance was just something special to watch. 3 brownliw medallists is a testament to that.

I'd be interested to know which midfield kicked more goals if anyone wants to find an appropriate comparison

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

lol u are absolutely riddled with piss and wind arent ya?

ablett and bartel 2 brownlow medallists the rest none as of yet
saints and pies are better

Yeah, saints and pies have.....how many Brownlow medallists?

 

[TigerTime88]

Think back to when the eagles contested their first grand final in 2005, if fev was a part of the team from that year, they would have won the game easily, he would only hvae needed 3 goals and given he averages 3 and a bit a game, the following year fev wins the coleman in the wooden spoon side, how many more would he have kicked with the premiership team and given them back to back.
the 2007 grand final decided would have come to fev been the difference given the cats didnt boast a champion full forward and that the battle of the midfields and the supply fev would have got would have been unbelievable.

Yeah I agree. All I am saying is imagine Fevola in the Eagles party culture...wow recipe for disaster.

 

[skywalker1977]

Yeah, saints and pies have.....how many Brownlow medallists?

the comparison was that saints and pies are better than that of the blues

thats what the comparison was about

at the end of the day the hawks dont boast a brownlow medalist yet they toppled ur hopes and dreams of the hatrick

cant believe u guys are deemed as great, given that u lost to the hawks then just scraped home against the saints in a game that a goal umpire needed his eyes checked.

could very well have been 1 and 2, and to say u have such dominance which would all come to a screeching halt and heartbreaking memory of what might have been if u dont get this years flag.
brownlows wont mean squat, which is why the lions are greater than u could ever be.

 

[skywalker1977]

Yeah I agree. All I am saying is imagine Fevola in the Eagles party culture...wow recipe for disaster.

lol imagine fev and cousins lapping it up at a strip joint or who could piss the longest on a shopping centre window lol

hilarious

 

[Guardian Hawk]

kouta was the best clearance player for more than 5 years straight its based on fact that he was the best while mitchell was around.

Your memory is obviously sketchy! Kouta had suffered two serious knee injuries by the time Mitchell debuted - he was a shadow of his former self. I was not basing my information on opinion, I was suggestng he was one of the better clearance players based on the fact that he lead the league in clearances - an objective statistic (which I provided for you). Even if Kouta was a better clearance player in 2003 ish (which is not true), I was merely arguing that Mitchell was not a poor (or disastorous) player as a youngster as you originally suggested. I provided links to verify this.

hayes and two others
but neither was mitchel

You obviously didn't read the thread, only one post. Mitchell is one of the most mentioned names in the thread and more to the point, I highlighted that there were plenty of clearance stats in the thread (e.g. Mitchell averages the most clearances out of any player from 2004 - 2009 and he lead the league in clearances in 2003)

yes it will, he is the only one getting votes and stands out in his team
whereas judd and the rest steal votes off one another

Logic fail. This is a long espoused fallacy. It is always harder to get votes in a bottom four team than a top four team. Look at most players careers, they get more votes when the team is doing well than when it is doing poorly. The only time this doesn't happen is when a player's team is down the botton when they are 23-28 (a player's peak years). To emphasise my point, look at the Brownlow medal winners and when they're team finished. If it's easier to get votes in a poor team, surely the best players in the poor teams would be winning Brownlow's, not the other way around. Yet:

2000 - Shane Woewodin (Grand Finallist & not many votes when his team struggled)
2001 - Black (Premiers)
2002 - Aker (Premiers)
2003 - Buckley (GF), Goodes (PF), Ricciuto (SF)
2004 - Judd (EF)
2005 - Cousins (GF)
2006 - Goodes (GF)
2007 - Bartel (Premiers)
2008 - Cooney (PF)
2009 - Ablett (Premiers)
2010 - ? Swan is clear favourite (1st on ladder), Ablett second (2nd on ladder)

To reiterate, as you can see, if it easier to get votes in a bottom four team, how come no brownlow medallists EVER come from those teams. In fact, all medallists come from finallists, including some from the same team (Black, Aker, Bartel, Ablett) - kind of ruins the 'stealing votes' argument

hodgey didnt perform to the level he is at now

Even if we assume that's true, that is not the point. You suggested Gibbs/Murphy are better because Hodge's form was 'disastorous' at the same age (22/23 years old). I pointed out he was a Best and Fairest winner and All Australian at 21 (which incidentally, neither Murphy or Gibbs has achieved to date)

hardly worth noting that he wouldnt be half the player is now if was at the eagles when judd was around.

You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that. In fact, look at Kerr (lead the Brownlow count twice when Judd was around, nothing since), Cousins (won brownlow when Judd was around and didn't before that, despite being one of the best players for a long time), Embley (great player and Norm Smith when Judd was around, noweher near that level since he left), Fletcher (AA when Judd was around, fringe player when he left), etc, etc. Hell, even Judd was a better player when he had the Eagles midfield around him rather than Carlton's. Even besides all that, imagine Hodge on a HBF with the Eagles midfield - likely he would have been even more of a superstar, not less.

whether he does or doesnt

u have roughy and lance that were the catalyst to the flag been won not hodge

Hodge won the Norm Smith medal (whilst Frankin and oghie were relatively quiet) - I would say he had a fair influence.

 

[skywalker1977]

Your memory is obviously sketchy! Kouta had suffered two serious knee injuries by the time Mitchell debuted - he was a shadow of his former self. I was not basing my information on opinion, I was suggestng he was one of the better clearance players based on the fact that he lead the league in clearances - an objective statistic (which I provided for you). Even if Kouta was a better clearance player in 2003 ish (which is not true), I was merely arguing that Mitchell was not a poor (or disastorous) player as a youngster as you originally suggested. I provided links to verify this.

I wasnt making out that he was disastrous at all, rather that he at the same age of either gibbs or murphy he wasnt playing in successive finals campaigns whereas the blue duo are.
thats just fact, kouta was injured but even through his injuries waas still the best clearance player in the league, may not have fared with most but was the most effective.

You obviously didn't read the thread, only one post. Mitchell is one of the most mentioned names in the thread and more to the point, I highlighted that there were plenty of clearance stats in the thread (e.g. Mitchell averages the most clearances out of any player from 2004 - 2009 and he lead the league in clearances in 2003)

I did read the post and yes he was with the most averages, but ur post only had an article in there champ

Logic fail.
This is a long espoused fallacy. It is always harder to get votes in a bottom four team than a top four team. Look at most players careers, they get more votes when the team is doing well than when it is doing poorly. The only time this doesn't happen is when a player's team is down the botton when they are 23-28 (a player's peak years). To emphasise my point, look at the Brownlow medal winners and when they're team finished. If it's easier to get votes in a poor team, surely the best players in the poor teams would be winning Brownlow's, not the other way around. Yet:

2000 - Shane Woewodin (Grand Finallist & not many votes when his team struggled)
2001 - Black (Premiers)
2002 - Aker (Premiers)
2003 - Buckley (GF), Goodes (PF), Ricciuto (SF)
2004 - Judd (EF)
2005 - Cousins (GF)
2006 - Goodes (GF)
2007 - Bartel (Premiers)
2008 - Cooney (PF)
2009 - Ablett (Premiers)
2010 - ? Swan is clear favourite (1st on ladder), Ablett second (2nd on ladder)

now look at the alternative and see how ur logic fails

1988 g. healy missed finals
1990 libba missed finals
1991 jim stynes finalists
1992 s wynd prelim final
1994 diesel finalists
1995 p kelly missed finals
1996 voss/hird finals
1998 harvey finals
1999 crawford missed finals
2008 cooney finals
as u can see there are no players there mentioned as making the grand final or premiers in that year
and no standout teams, u would see that those years were dominated by the likes of north, west coast and the hawks.
its easier to stand out winning an all australian or the very least a club best and fairest when u dont have anyone to contend with.
whereas judd cousins kerr, voss aker and black and even luke power and shawn hart may have had to fight for the positions on the squad.
hodge had barely anybody.
after all it was u who mentioned his best and fairest awards and all australian, this is the first mentioning of brownlows till u needed the back up in ur argument.
as a matter of fact the brownlow is more often won by a team not winning the grand final.

To reiterate, as you can see, if it easier to get votes in a bottom four team, how come no brownlow medallists EVER come from those teams. In fact, all medallists come from finallists, including some from the same team (Black, Aker, Bartel, Ablett) - kind of ruins the 'stealing votes' argument

reason thats the case is depending on the dominance of the team in question.
then again let me put it to u like this
why has the games greatest players never won a brownlow
ablett snr
carey
kouta
dunstall
hocking
modra
mcleod
matera
kemp
worsfold
richo
pavlich
riewoldt
dermie
kernahan

Even if we assume that's true, that is not the point. You suggested Gibbs/Murphy are better because Hodge's form was 'disastorous' at the same age (22/23 years old). I pointed out he was a Best and Fairest winner and All Australian at 21 (which incidentally, neither Murphy or Gibbs has achieved to date)

yes because they are faring in a better team than hodge and mitchell did, they wont stand out as much because there is plenty of competition around them.
the team hodge and sammy played in wasnt one where they wouldnt stand out, they were the only shining lights for u.

You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that. In fact, look at Kerr (lead the Brownlow count twice when Judd was around, nothing since),

has aged, has played in 2 grand finals and a premiership, his best is beyond him and is a spent force, also adjusting to life without judd and cousins makes it hard, then again look at lecras 12 goals against the dons. theres proof and evidence for ya.

Cousins (won brownlow when Judd was around and didn't before that, despite being one of the best players for a long time),

in an era that the lions were rising and they had their stars winning flags and brownlows, the lions declined and eagles started to rise,

Embley (great player and Norm Smith when Judd was around, noweher near that level since he left),

the eagles were going to falter and decline sooner or later, it happens, jonathan brown is still firing 7 years after their last flag, theres more evidence for ya.

Fletcher (AA when Judd was around, fringe player when he left), etc, etc. Hell, even Judd was a better player when he had the Eagles midfield around him rather than Carlton's.

debatable, since he has been there the blues were with fev for 2 years, they then got to the finals after 9 years thanks to judd, then fevs gone and its a difficult adjustment.
take franklin out of ur side, ur hodge would struggle.

Even besides all that, imagine Hodge on a HBF with the Eagles midfield - likely he would have been even more of a superstar, not less.

no way, he would have barely made the side, it shows with judd captaining the blues to another finals campaign, funny u would think that in only his 3rd season with the blues has taken them to finals the last 2.
why hodge hasnt done that for u at all.

Hodge won the Norm Smith medal (whilst Frankin and oghie were relatively quiet) - I would say he had a fair influence.

i would say that franklin and roughies 180 goals between them was the main and perhaps only reason u got to the grand final and only that

on the day u had many players worthy of the medal, such as chance batemen and cyril rioli for starters

hodge played well no doubt about it, but there were others that deserved it just as much

 

[Sin City]

This guy is starting to remind me of Blues4000

 

[skywalker1977]

This guy is starting to remind me of Blues4000

who u talking about there?

me or the hawk man

are u sure ur not blues 4000

whats with u carlton supporters anyway, too much crime getting u down out at lygon street?

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

i would say that franklin and roughies 180 goals between them was the main and perhaps only reason u got to the grand final and only that

on the day u had many players worthy of the medal, such as chance batemen and cyril rioli for starters

hodge played well no doubt about it, but there were others that deserved it just as much

"On the day" the only true medal winner was Ablett. He may have been in the losing side but he was head and shoulders best on ground. I though Ellis had a better game than Hodge. Hodge is a superstar though and to compare him to Gibbs/Murphy is hilarious even if he does struggle with taggers.

***************************************************

On the point of the thread, I don't think limiting it to 4 is a fair comparison.


Reality

Collingwood.

Swan, Didak, Pendlebury, Jolly, Thomas, Ball, Wellingham, Beams

V

Carlton

Judd, Kruezer, Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson


Collingwood's midfield is easily better than Carlton's AND it runs both ways. It has more scope for improvement as well.

I think our "fab 4" would be Swan, Didak, Pendlebury, Jolly though. Although Jolly started the season poorly as he got used to our structures, he has been in the best 2 rucks in the comp in the second half of this season.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

"On the day" the only true medal winner was Ablett. He may have been in the losing side but he was head and shoulders best on ground. I though Ellis had a better game than Hodge. Hodge is a superstar though and to compare him to Gibbs/Murphy is hilarious even if he does struggle with taggers.

Hodge nullified 17 of Geelong's inside 50's on that day, and was clearly the best player in that area of the game( as declared by Justin Leppitsch, at a coaching seminar in 2009), as well as racking up 26 possessions and goal.

Ellis turned the ball over far too much for the amount of ball he had. It's not how many times you get the ball, it's how you use it.

 

[DarwinRoo]

Did someone mention the words worsfold, great and brownlow in the same sentence?

LULZ.

 

[Drizt]

None of them even earn the right to use the title "fab 4".

Voss >>>>>> Swan
Akermanis >>>> Didak
Black >>>>> Pendlebury
Lappin >>>> Thomas

3 maybe 4 of those players are retired. Living in the past much ?

 

[The Panther]

Swan (certain AA for the 2nd time), Didak (ditto) & Pendlebury nominated for the AA squad.

Judd, Carlton's only nomination & would be behind Pendlebury for selection in the 22.

Murphy & Gibbs, nowhere to be seen, Daisy a tad unlucky.