Religion The Bible: Literal, figurative, bulldust?

[Gethelred]

To clearly delineate conversation between threads, this thread is for specifically bible talk; if you're debating biblical historicity or lack of it, if you're talking interpretation, this is the thread for you.

Standard board rules apply. Go nuts.

 

[Vdubs]

I get what you believe.

Why the Christian God, and not one of the millions of other Gods?

Does he tell you he's the Christian one and not the Islamic one a the Hindu one, or the Jewish one or Odin or Zeuss?

Like, you 'feel' a God. How do you know which God it is?

My simple understanding is that there is only one God who always was and created all things.
Undefinable, omni all things.
Is that Christian?
Billions of people believe there is God.
Christ is a secondary issue- happy to leave that aside.
You either believe in God or not.
It is even more difficult to believe Christ is who He said He was. That I do is not arguable.
I have heard atheists swear at the workplace- "GOD!!" Why does God and the Bible promote so much discussion? Because there is no way knowing for sure in this life.
What do Christians lose by following Jesus?
And if it turns out to be untrue, so be it- it has not adversely affected my life or those associated with me.

 

[Total Power]

My simple understanding is that there is only one God who always was and created all things.\

You are. wrong. Before the Babylonian captivity, Jehovah was a tribal God, only became universal after interaction with Mazda worshippers

Entering the conversation without any preconceptions is much easier imo. The God of the bible was originally part of a pantheon, the other gods were edited out, and the trinity attempts to retroactively explain away the few mentions of other godlike entities that remained.

In my experience the most sophisticated Christians are quite aware that the trinity doesn't make sense. The Church doesn't care that it doesn't make sense. They simply declare that it is a 'mystery' and orthodoxy. Basically any attempt to rationalize the trinity is explicit heresy.

From a Christian page:

"Minds that are not fully docile to the faith have, in greater or less measure, resisted the unquestioning acceptance of the Trinity. From apostolic times to the present, they have struggled with themselves and in their misguided effort to "explain" the mystery have only rationalized their own ideas of what the mystery should be." - Father John Hardon


What do Muslims lose by following Allah? what do Hindus lose by following Shiva? It's easy to dismiss your argument cause you have the same opinion as me on other religions, i just go one step further and apply the same to your belief as well.

 

[Malifice]

My simple understanding is that there is only one God who always was and created all things.

Yeah, but which God?

It's important. If you pick the wrong one, you're in for an eternity of damnation.

For example, if the Muslims or Jews or Hindus or any of the other Gods is the God you feel, then you're destined for a bad time in the afterlife.

Billions of people believe there is God.

And most of them think it's a different God to the one you think it is.

And if it turns out to be untrue, so be it- it has not adversely affected my life or those associated with me.

Pascals wager eh?

For sure dude, you can believe in whatever you want to believe. That's your call.

It's just, self-evidently, none of it's true.

 

[peetoo]

Christ wouldn’t be the only ‘human’ executed for claiming to be god. There would be dozens I reckon

 

[Vdubs]

Yeah, but which God?

It's important. If you pick the wrong one, you're in for an eternity of damnation.

For example, if the Muslims or Jews or Hindus or any of the other Gods is the God you feel, then you're destined for a bad time in the afterlife.


And most of them think it's a different God to the one you think it is.


Pascals wager eh?

For sure dude, you can believe in whatever you want to believe. That's your call.

It's just, self-evidently, none of it's true.

One GOD. It’s not impossible to be true or to believe. Nobody can say for sure it’s not true. I can and do live with that premise

 

[Roylion]

One GOD. Nobody can say for sure it’s not true.

Nobody can say for sure it is true.

 

[Malifice]

One GOD.

Yeah, but which God?

They all have different rules to follow if you want to enter the afterlife.

 

[Malifice]

Nobody can say for sure it is true.

Nobody can say for sure it’s not true.

Which is why the only logical position to take is Agnosticism.

'I cant know anything for sure either way (or indeed any way).'

Cogito ergo sum and all that.

 

[Vdubs]

Which is why the only logical position to take is Agnosticism.

'I cant know anything for sure either way (or indeed any way).'

Cogito ergo sum and all that.

So Christians can be essentially Agnostics with hope?

 

[Total Power]

One GOD. It’s not impossible to be true or to believe. Nobody can say for sure it’s not true. I can and do live with that premise

Read up on how trinity came by. Christians were scratching their heads on polytheism till then. If you read the history of the Bible, it's evident. None of what you asset is true.

Do you think Allah and Jesus are the same God? so how on earth could you make such a statement?

 

[Vdubs]

Read up on how trinity came by. Christians were scratching their heads on polytheism till then. If you read the history of the Bible, it's evident. None of what you asset is true.

Do you think Allah and Jesus are the same God? so how on earth could you make such a statement?

Can you look back to the very beginning of existence? Of course not. GOD the Creator predates everything and anything we can conceive. I believe. It is beyond description and understanding, hence the need for faith. The Bible and other books are mere attempts to bring God to our limited understanding.
Nobody can define God and nobody can say what He did or what He should have done. Nobody is above God. It is absolute arrogance and folly to suggest otherwise.

 

[Malifice]

So Christians can be essentially Agnostics with hope?

No, if you're a Christian, you must believe JC was the literal Son of God and messiah (as prophesized in the Hebrew bible), that he died on the cross to absolve Humanity of 'original sin' and was raised from the dead to ascend into Heaven.

That's the bare minimum.

After that, depending on the denomination you follow, you likely have to also believe in a whole lot of other weirdness (the trinity, the existence of Limbo and Purgatory, only 144000 getting into heaven, the rapture etc) and also likely have to actually go along with the rituals of your denomination (conformation, baptism etc) and you also have to not sin (or if you do, you have to repent them) like 'being Gay' or 'having sex outside of marriage' and so forth.

In my office, I work with a Muslim girl, a gay Buddhist (sinning every day with his partner), me (an agnostic, who sins every day with his girlfriend, and is totally unrepentant), an atheist, and a Christian.

Only the Christian gets into heaven; the rest of us are destined for the fires of Hell. Unless the Muslim girl is right, in which case only she gets into Paradise, and the rest of us all go to Hell.

Or maybe the Buddhist is right, and we all get reincarnated (this happens to us all regardless of what we believe).

Or maybe the Athiest is right, and when you're dead, you're just dead, regardless of what you believe.

From where I (an Agnostic) sit, maybe one of them is right (or maybe none of them are). Cant know for sure either way.

 

[Vdubs]

No, if you're a Christian, you must believe JC was the literal Son of God and messiah (as prophesized in the Hebrew bible), that he died on the cross to absolve Humanity of 'original sin' and was raised from the dead to ascend into Heaven.

That's the bare minimum.

After that, depending on the denomination you follow, you likely have to also believe in a whole lot of other weirdness (the trinity, the existence of Limbo and Purgatory, only 144000 getting into heaven, the rapture etc) and also likely have to actually go along with the rituals of your denomination (conformation, baptism etc) and you also have to not sin (or if you do, you have to repent them) like 'being Gay' or 'having sex outside of marriage' and so forth.

In my office, I work with a Muslim girl, a gay Buddhist (sinning every day with his partner), me (an agnostic, who sins every day with his girlfriend, and is totally unrepentant), an atheist, and a Christian.

Only the Christian gets into heaven; the rest of us are destined for the fires of Hell. Unless the Muslim girl is right, in which case only she gets into Paradise, and the rest of us all go to Hell.

Or maybe the Buddhist is right, and we all get reincarnated (this happens to us all regardless of what we believe).

Or maybe the Athiest is right, and when you're dead, you're just dead, regardless of what you believe.

From where I (an Agnostic) sit, maybe one of them is right (or maybe none of them are). Cant know for sure either way.

Would make a great TV series , your office.

 

[Total Power]

Can you look back to the very beginning of existence? Of course not. GOD the Creator predates everything and anything we can conceive. I believe. It is beyond description and understanding, hence the need for faith. The Bible and other books are mere attempts to bring God to our limited understanding.
Nobody can define God and nobody can say what He did or what He should have done. Nobody is above God. It is absolute arrogance and folly to suggest otherwise.

Here we go again. I am not arguing FOR or AGAINST God. i am arguing against the religious version of God. Why can't there be more than 1 God? for vast majority of human existence we have believed in more than one god. The Bible also portray mulltiple Gods. To counter this, Mr Agusitine came up with Trinity.

OT mentions other Gods as well. I am just simply saying that there is nothing in you religion which states that there is 'One god'. The trinity you guys keep going on about is NOT a concept that Jesus was aware of, came a LOT LATER.

 

[Vdubs]

No, if you're a Christian, you must believe JC was the literal Son of God and messiah (as prophesized in the Hebrew bible), that he died on the cross to absolve Humanity of 'original sin' and was raised from the dead to ascend into Heaven.

That's the bare minimum.

After that, depending on the denomination you follow, you likely have to also believe in a whole lot of other weirdness (the trinity, the existence of Limbo and Purgatory, only 144000 getting into heaven, the rapture etc) and also likely have to actually go along with the rituals of your denomination (conformation, baptism etc) and you also have to not sin (or if you do, you have to repent them) like 'being Gay' or 'having sex outside of marriage' and so forth.

In my office, I work with a Muslim girl, a gay Buddhist (sinning every day with his partner), me (an agnostic, who sins every day with his girlfriend, and is totally unrepentant), an atheist, and a Christian.

Only the Christian gets into heaven; the rest of us are destined for the fires of Hell. Unless the Muslim girl is right, in which case only she gets into Paradise, and the rest of us all go to Hell.

Or maybe the Buddhist is right, and we all get reincarnated (this happens to us all regardless of what we believe).

Or maybe the Athiest is right, and when you're dead, you're just dead, regardless of what you believe.

From where I (an Agnostic) sit, maybe one of them is right (or maybe none of them are). Cant know for sure either way.

By definition, we are ALL agnostic- how can we KNOW for sure. Yet when, as Christians, we explain what we know after personal redemptive experiences with God, by Jesus, we are shot down as foolish and puerile.
So that is it. By faith we know what we know, but try and explain that to someone who is searching, agnostic, or atheistic, and it's a real vicious cycle.

 

[Total Power]

By definition, we are ALL agnostic- how can we KNOW for sure. Yet when, as Christians, we explain what we know after personal redemptive experiences with God, by Jesus, we are shot down as foolish and puerile.

Logically agnosticism is the correct position, but atheism is pretty logical when you come up against the God of religion. When your book make stupid comments on scientific issues, moral issues, issues in relation to genders (all things that take us forward not backward), then it's easy to say these are all human inventions.

So that is it. By faith we know what we know, but try and explain that to someone who is searching, agnostic, or atheistic, and it's a real vicious cycle.

Why can't you just say 'i don't know'? no one knows, this is a simple fact.

 

[Vdubs]

Here we go again. I am not arguing FOR or AGAINST God. i am arguing against the religious version of God. Why can't there be more than 1 God? for vast majority of human existence we have believed in more than one god. The Bible also portray mulltiple Gods. To counter this, Mr Agusitine came up with Trinity.

OT mentions other Gods as well. I am just simply saying that there is nothing in you religion which states that there is 'One god'. The trinity you guys keep going on about is NOT a concept that Jesus was aware of, came a LOT LATER.

OK- I have formed my very own unique belief system where there is and was and always will be ONLY ONE GOD. The rest is immaterial. Jesus is relevant to those who believe God sent a human version of Himself for our benefit.

 

[Vdubs]

Logically agnosticism is the correct position, but atheism is pretty logical when you come up against the God of religion. When your book make stupid comments on scientific issues, moral issues, issues in relation to genders (all things that take us forward not backward), then it's easy to say these are all human inventions.



Why can't you just say 'i don't know'? no one knows, this is a simple fact.

Did I not just say that?

 

[Total Power]

OK- I have formed my very own unique belief system where there is and was and always will be ONLY ONE GOD. The rest is immaterial. Jesus is relevant to those who believe God sent a human version of Himself for our benefit.

Now that's better, you have the right to believe what you wish to. But you are a Christian, if you look at the origins of Christianity, there's nothing in the Bible which supports your assertion. Trinity being the most important concept in the Bible, was mentioned how many times exactly? cause it's a late addition to solve the issue of polytheism. It's humans who invented Trinity.

 

[Total Power]

Did I not just say that?

You keep saying there is ONE god (that even in caps), as if you are shouting. I asked, how would you know this? FIRST you need to establish there is a God(s). This may not be the case. Life maybe is just a simulation. Maybe we are here by accident. Who can tell?

now If there is a god imagine if there are multiverses or parallel universes or different parts of this massive universe, why can't there be different gods for that? or even for different galaxies or solar systems. How can you assert there is one god based on a hunch? that's a massive statement to make. The likelihood of God of religion existing is literally non existent. I told you why above.

 

[Roylion]

The Bible and other books are mere attempts to bring God to our limited understanding.

Poor attempts to the point of merely being a product of the human imagination. In the same way other civilizations had a collection of what we would now called myths.

Nobody can define God and nobody can say what He did or what He should have done.

So anything written about 'God' including various religious tracts, such as the varuous books of the Bible are virtually worthless in 'knowing God'.

Nobody is above God. It is absolute arrogance and folly to suggest otherwise.

Yet 'God' may not even exist.

 

[Malifice]

By definition, we are ALL agnostic- how can we KNOW for sure. Yet when, we as Christians...

You're not a Christian.

You don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the literal Son of God (and prophesized Jewish Messiah, of the God Yahweh), died on the cross for humanities original Sin, and was resurrected to live eternally in heaven with his Father (Yahweh).

If you dont believe that, then you're not a Christian.

 

[peetoo]

You're not a Christian.

You don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the literal Son of God (and prophesized Jewish Messiah, of the God Yahweh), died on the cross for humanities original Sin, and was resurrected to live eternally in heaven with his Father (Yahweh).

If you dont believe that, then you're not a Christian.

There it is? How many steps from burning folk?

 

[Vdubs]

You're not a Christian.

You don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the literal Son of God (and prophesized Jewish Messiah, of the God Yahweh), died on the cross for humanities original Sin, and was resurrected to live eternally in heaven with his Father (Yahweh).

If you dont believe that, then you're not a Christian.

Sorry Mal, I certainly do believe all that, that's what faith is about, and I think I know it. But believing and knowing are not synonymous.

 

[Vdubs]

Poor attempts to the point of merely being a product of the human imagination. In the same way other civilizations had a collection of what we would now called myths.


So anything written about 'God' including various religious tracts, such as the varuous books of the Bible are virtually worthless in 'knowing God'.


Yet 'God' may not even exist.

Not to us who have had our eyes opened and hearts softened. We see the Bible as God's word for all of us, but those who try and read it like a text book, or a history book will be disappointed and continue to criticise it mercilessly