The Big Footy Liverpool Army

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moomba

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Cooldude said:
305 games (29 as a sub) in 110 goals in all comps (I'm talking about career overall, so don't selectively pick just league goals).
Cup goals rarely give you a good indication of a strikers quality, there are just too many easy goals to be got against lower league opposition. As for his 110 total career goals you have to take into account that over 40% of them were scored in the lower divisions for Coventry and Norwich, or in Scotland for Celtic. Add in the goals he scored in domestic cup comps, and the Intertoto Cup and UEFA Cup against low ranking sides and it sheds a bit more light on things.

That's 276 starts with 110 goals, that's not bad. Sub appearrances normally invole a 10-15 minute spell, which is unfair to be put amongst starts to judge a striker on
Seeing as we don't have goals per minute played stats we can only go on his total appearances. You can ignore his sub appearances if it makes you happier, to me he had 29 opportunities to score goals.

His rate in his past 3 seasons or so are just shy of one in two, that's not bad.
A fair bit shy of 1 in 2, and even that is boosted by goals for Celtic and in the cups. I suspect he won't have the Intertoto and UEFA cups this season to pump up his goal figures.

Don't know how many times you actually saw Blackburn play last season, but Blackburn last season ain't exactly your exhibition of total football, in fact, at times they made Bolton look like Barca
I saw a heap of them, and while they weren't always pretty they were constantly looking to get forward. Liverpool IMO, didn't always have the same attitude.
 

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moomba

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MrAaron said:
1997-98 13 goals
1998-99 17 goals

that's the only 2 seasons he has hit double figures :thumbsu:
Thanks for that, both times in the Coke Leagues. So four and a half years in the premier league, and has hit double figures in the league only once. Personally I think he'll do it again this season (injuries permitting) but I wouldn't expect a while lot more than that.
 

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moomba said:
Cup goals rarely give you a good indication of a strikers quality, there are just too many easy goals to be got against lower league opposition. As for his 110 total career goals you have to take into account that over 40% of them were scored in the lower divisions for Coventry and Norwich, or in Scotland for Celtic. Add in the goals he scored in domestic cup comps, and the Intertoto Cup and UEFA Cup against low ranking sides and it sheds a bit more light on things.
Hey, goals are goals. Whether you like it or not.

moomba said:
Seeing as we don't have goals per minute played stats we can only go on his total appearances. You can ignore his sub appearances if it makes you happier, to me he had 29 opportunities to score goals.
Hey, can't help it if you're twisting stats to prove your point. A striker's expected to score goals when he get starts, which is vastly different to coming on as a sub on many different circumstances. Coming on with 3, 5, 10, 15 minutes left, if you call those genuine opportunities then it's a little bit stupid IMO, of course

Unreliable stats like that should never be counted unless you're obsessed to prove a point. It's like judging a bowler on not being able to take wickets when he's only been given 2 overs per innings. A striker should be judged on the amount of goals he's scored based on the amount of starts, that's only logical

moomba said:
A fair bit shy of 1 in 2, and even that is boosted by goals for Celtic and in the cups. I suspect he won't have the Intertoto and UEFA cups this season to pump up his goal figures.
Hey, goals are goals, whether you like it or not.

moomba said:
I saw a heap of them, and while they weren't always pretty they were constantly looking to get forward. Liverpool IMO, didn't always have the same attitude.
Then IMO you don't know what the hell you're watching, as you've proven most of the time with your opinion anyway.

No one has said they expected Bellamy to hit 20 goals a season anyway, if he hits 15, he's done his job. 6 mil for a good player who offers a different dimension and can get goals, pretty good signing in my eyes without being ground breaking. We can't splash 15 mil on a 25 goals a season forward, and besides, the teams Rafa have managed throughout his career have never based goalscoring on any particularly individual.
 

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The past matters little. It's what he does in the future. I think he has the talent and he will never have had better service than he will now with Gonzalez, Riise, Kewell, Alonso, Garcia and Gerrard supplying him. He will score a lot of goals for us and IMO lead our goalscoring next season. He wont be the next Fowler, Rush or Owen but he will be well worth the 6 we paid for him IMO. Better than overpaying for Defoe or Bent IMO.
 

moomba

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Cooldude said:
Hey, goals are goals. Whether you like it or not.
Doesn't really bother me, I just don't use goals in cups, usually against poor opposition as a basis to form judgements on players. You do, so good luck to you.

Hey, can't help it if you're twisting stats to prove your point. A striker's expected to score goals when he get starts, which is vastly different to coming on as a sub on many different circumstances. Coming on with 3, 5, 10, 15 minutes left, if you call those genuine opportunities then it's a little bit stupid IMO, of course
Twisting stats, how exactly? If you go by your theory Bradley Wright-Phillips is a 2 goals a game man in the premier league. That shows the stupidity of your argument, IMO of course.

Unreliable stats like that should never be counted unless you're obsessed to prove a point. It's like judging a bowler on not being able to take wickets when he's only been given 2 overs per innings. A striker should be judged on the amount of goals he's scored based on the amount of starts, that's only logical
A striker could get a start and go off injured in the 1st minute. His replacement could play the remaining 89 (plus added time). If you are going to be really accurate you would go on goals per minute played. If not you take into account every appearance a player makes. Often a sub appearance agaisnt tired opponents, once the game has opened up a bit is a great opportunity for a striker to score.

Hey, goals are goals, whether you like it or not.
I'm surprised you weren't in the market for Chris Sutton or John Hatson then. After all, goals are goals as you say.

Then IMO you don't know what the hell you're watching, as you've proven most of the time with your opinion anyway.
The thing I love about discussing football with you is that you just can't handle someone having an opinion thats different than yours. Even after I have said that I think Bellamy will be valuable to Liverpool this season, and that IMO he will finish in double figures for the second time in his career (as far as the premier league goes) you still can't help yourself.
 

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moomba said:
Doesn't really bother me, I just don't use goals in cups, usually against poor opposition as a basis to form judgements on players. You do, so good luck to you.
Goals are goals, whether you like it or not, you must be the type to say Pele's not as good as he suggests because of all those exhibition matches goals counted towards his overall tally?

moomba said:
Twisting stats, how exactly? If you go by your theory Bradley Wright-Phillips is a 2 goals a game man in the premier league. That shows the stupidity of your argument, IMO of course.
That is absolutely idiotic to use BWeeP as an example for a bloke who's made absolutely minimal starts and a million sub appearances (Meaning primarily a bench player). To even make such a moronic comparsion shows how selective you are

One is a striker with seasons and seasons under his belt and the other is a young bloke making his way, one has had a fairly distinguish career and the other basicly doesn't even have half a career. That is how you're twisting your stats, with no logic and just silly nitpicking

moomba said:
A striker could get a start and go off injured in the 1st minute. His replacement could play the remaining 89 (plus added time). If you are going to be really accurate you would go on goals per minute played. If not you take into account every appearance a player makes. Often a sub appearance agaisnt tired opponents, once the game has opened up a bit is a great opportunity for a striker to score.
A player naturally makes more starts than sub appearances, if he gets injured in the 5th minute, then it's an occurance that happens infinitely less than a player having a very short cameo off the bench. You will get one 5th minute sub from one every 70 odd starts while you'd frequently get 10 minute stints as a sub (Which happens the majority of the time)

Not even worth mentioning such a very remote possibility

A sub appearance when your manager gets desperately in hope of a goal with your side ultimately failing to create anything, or a sub made when sides are 2-0+ down (Which happens frequently with the clubs he's played in) in a hopeless situation. They all count, of course

moomba said:
The thing I love about discussing football with you is that you just can't handle someone having an opinion thats different than yours. Even after I have said that I think Bellamy will be valuable to Liverpool this season, and that IMO he will finish in double figures for the second time in his career (as far as the premier league goes) you still can't help yourself.
Correction

I can't handle someone with moronic opinions

That is of course, my opinion on your footballing knowledge

And btw, I never even disagreed with you on your assessment on Bellamy's worth to us, but some of the points you made were IMO, stupid.

There are plenty who has a different opinion to mine, but yours has always been so far off the mark. It's a bit self centred of you to ever consider you as my only target of debate, of course.
 

Cooldude

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You, on the contrary, is a bit dull and boring :D How many times do you have to be wrong about things for you to admit it? :D And here you are wondering why people are disagreeing with your opinion?

Going off topic from the debate, it's also one of your trademarks, too.
 

moomba

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Cooldude said:
You, on the contrary, is a bit dull and boring :D How many times do you have to be wrong about things for you to admit it? :D And here you are wondering why people are disagreeing with your opinion?
You do realise that when it comes to differing opinions, one doesn't necessarily have to the correct one and one the incorrect one don't you?
 

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Peter Crouch mainly, and then there's Liverpool not being a top four side, while we just comfortably finished in the top 3 last season.

Of course, you'd go to temporary anmesia and not remember all of them, or simply make up some long-winded boring logic-twisting bull**** to somehow "defend" your point
 

moomba

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Cooldude said:
Peter Crouch mainly, and then there's Liverpool not being a top four side, while we just comfortably finished in the top 3 last season.
Peter Crouch - I wasn't wrong. For £7m I'd expect more than an average of less than a shot (on or off target) a game, which was what he average in his first 22 games for the club. When he improved in that regard I said so.

On Liverpool being a top four side I never said that they wouldn't be, in fact I predicted that they would be a top four side. You have made this claim several times now, with no basis whatsoever.
 

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Cooldude

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moomba said:
Peter Crouch - I wasn't wrong. For £7m I'd expect more than an average of less than a shot (on or off target) a game, which was what he average in his first 22 games for the club. When he improved in that regard I said so.
Long winded, damn, can't tick that. Logic-twisting bull****, tick

Peter Crouch improved our overall play dramaticly and one of the many reasons why we moved from a abysmal 5th to a 20+ points improvement to 3rd. End of story

moomba said:
On Liverpool being a top four side I never said that they wouldn't be, in fact I predicted that they would be a top four side. You have made this claim several times now, with no basis whatsoever.
Temporary Amnesia, tick
 

moomba

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Cooldude said:
Long winded, damn, can't tick that. Logic-twisting bull****, tick

Peter Crouch improved our overall play dramaticly and one of the many reasons why we moved from a abysmal 5th to a 20+ points improvement to 3rd. End of story
So we have a difference of opinion. It's not against the law you know.

Temporary Amnesia, tick
2004/05 - http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126225&highlight=predictions

1. Chelsea
2. Arsenal
3. Man United
4. Liverpool
2005/06 - http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188262&page=2&highlight=guarantee

I wasn't talking about a most probable top 4. And if I was it would have been the same probable top 4 as I chose last year.
Oops, seems my memory is going along OK. Not so sure about yours though.
 

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Your arguments are more boring than watching Ukraine, guys.

You have differing opinions. Neither of you are right. Build a bridge....

IRWT. :D
 

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Just admit your dislike to Peter Crouch, and say that you think he's ****, more direct and certainly more honest, rather than pretending to give a impartial opinion and incorrect assessment of his value and ability.

And if I can be bothered searching through one year old ****, I can certainly find your load of **** about Liverpool not really a top four side and are at the same level of Newcastle and Boro, btw, could you give me last year's table and see where those two clubs finished and where we finished?

Edit: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3678733&postcount=28 ah there it is, now where's that table again?
 

moomba

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Cooldude said:
Just admit your dislike to Peter Crouch, and say that you think he's ****, more direct and certainly more honest, rather than pretending to give a impartial opinion and incorrect assessment of his value and ability.
I don't dislike Crouch. I believe he is a blue, and he seems a decent enough bloke. In the past I have doubted his ability but that turned around during his Southampton years and I said as much.

I don't think he is worth £7m, but that is just my opinion and I've certainly got no problems if he proves he is worth it. You probably won't note that my criticisms abuot Crouch were all about Liverpool expecting more, that to me suggests that he had more to give than he was giving. IMO he proved that by his performances in the middle of the year, although I would rate his season overall as "just OK". My opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

And if I can be bothered searching through one year old ****, I can certainly find your load of **** about Liverpool not really a top four side and are at the same level of Newcastle and Boro, btw, could you give me last year's table and see where those two clubs finished and where we finished?
I wonder if West Ham fans have been in a year long strop because I tipped them for relegation. Any Spurs fans still angry with me because I tipped them to finish outside a European spot. It's a prediction thread FFS, not every prediction comes true you know. If it helps you get over it I can humbly say that I drastically over-rated both Boro and Newcastle. I beg your forgiveness, and I'll certainly be much more careful in next season predictions for fear of offending any sensitive souls.

Simple fact though, is that I tipped Liverpool for a top four spot last season.
 

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moomba said:
I'm tipping you to miss this year too. Just can't bring myself to do any different. :D
How can you make a prediction before most of the transfers go through. Im still waiting on what Man Utd do before I decide the top 4.
 

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Well i doubt many of the big teams had seen a lot of Xabi Alonso as if they had, then why had they not signed him. To me he was a bargain when compared to the fees forked out for English players.

Heskey you are right is proven - it has been proven that he cannot score many goals in the Premier league.

I think the Champions League victory campaign in 05 proved that Rafa can get the most out of his squad and improve players.

I don't care if people hate Liverpool as that is their choice but i do get annoyed when people knock Rafa as he is one of the best going around.

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JLC said:
Well i doubt many of the big teams had seen a lot of Xabi Alonso as if they had, then why had they not signed him. To me he was a bargain when compared to the fees forked out for English players.
several clubs were after him, united among them. I believe he went to pool because he had the best rapport with the manager or something, and also the trifling matter of a bigger contract than anyone else was offering
 

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Moomba still doesn't have the balls to just say he thinks Peter Crouch is a tall lanky unco mofo who ain't any better than Darius Vassell, kinda like the majority. All the long-winded bull**** you spout about his ability are kinda pointless, ya know, when you could've just said that. Hmmm...

Overrated Newcastle and Boro? What about underrating us? But then again you've always been a spin doctor.

BTW, Xabi Alonso went to Liverpool coz Real were in for him, but pulled out coz they thought they've gotten Vieira instead (Which they didn't), and Alonso at that stage have decided to leave, in which case we were the only offer at the time
 
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