The Big Issue - Has the club misread the football climate again?

[carlton2dabone]

My biggest question is why players would choose to go to a club like Essendon with all there dramas of cheating etc, rather than come to our club.

If we can’t even attract players against a club like Essendon with their recent history, how were we ever going to get the FA required for the op’s possible scenario.

 

[DangerousD]

The other issue is with a seriously super draft looming do we go the Hawks model as signposted earlier and get a Omeara and Mitchell which would require sacrificing many high picks and thus missing out on the top end of the super draft or do we continue with the current youth path and perhaps even try and get another early pick? Imagine if we could get Rankine and Walsh.

Mitchell only cost pick 14 if i remember correctly which in hindsight is peanuts. We could find a pick like that for a player without losing our original pick in the draft.

I seem to be only replying to your posts, its not on purpose, its a good thread.

 

[DangerousD]

My biggest question is why players would choose to go to a club like Essendon with all there dramas of cheating etc, rather than come to our club.

If we can’t even attract players against a club like Essendon with their recent history, how were we ever going to get the FA required for the op’s possible scenario.

The Bombers have an experienced premiership coach at the helm
They have fantastic facilities
They have a huge supporter base and draw big crowds
They played finals last year

 

[TeeJay Blue]

From here on out I just hope we don't miss out on FA players because we're not willing to overspend.

Instead of overspending on quality, we're throwing salary down the drain by paying out contacts and bringing in guys like Mullet, O'Shea, Lobbe.

And overspending on quality is a risk in itself. It stinks of the old Carlton (and the current women's team).

It's not about attracting stars, but building a cohesive team of strong, admirable performers.

 

[rampar]

I reckon rice, although a crap player, chose st idiots over us. Says a lot.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

The club took a back step to go forward when releasing Gibbs. Couldn't possibly have foreseen Docherty going down. Essentially the almost-equivelent of taking Martin and Rance out of Richmonds lineup.

Its probably a simplistic view but I see it as Carltons central issue for its current woes this season - Two elite players in a team crying out for talent, leadership and depth just can't be covered like it can with other more established teams.

The change of tact essentially occurred before Bolton arrived. The blue print for any good rebuild seems to be cleanout, draft, get mature players in. Bolton hasn't reached that third stage yet, it would seem and should probably be seen as the reference point for how Carlton are judged going forward.

Blues are certainly playing the long game but in my view are already ahead of a host of teams in chasing down a flag.
Its also worth noting Carlton are coming in off a long run compared to other teams who are rebuilding - the missed generation of draft picks during and before the malthouse era can't be understated.

Another year of development, another free agent and a couple of top ender draft picks can change things rapidly.

Its going to get worse before it gets better.

Keep the faith fellas.

Top post mate.

 

[Jimmae]

My biggest question is why players would choose to go to a club like Essendon with all there dramas of cheating etc, rather than come to our club.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Been a basketcase since 2002 and won't be changing any year soon.

The club doesn't have members/supporters trust and they don't deserve it.

I think ur wrong, supporters as a majority have been calling for this club to do what it’s currently doing. There will always be those that are disillusioned.

SOS needs to start getting in some mature age quality as free agents, a Gaff and Jetta double will do me nicely as both won’t cost the earth but fill some glaring deficiencies in depth that we have.

 

[Bluandblublu]

Its very easy to draw a conclusion based on history. That doesnt make it so. The hawks have a lot of experience still, and players like sicily were developing nicely n the reserves before being given a senior chance. They had a good base of experience to relaunch from. They targeted their obvious need ie midfielders and didnt muck around..
We had many holes to fill . Mids and key position players, its v ry hard to fill all those voids in 3 drafts..

We have come a long way ijn a very short time, and i am hopefull that by the end of 2018 , we will be very certain which players are keepers and which can be moved on. I see that we can be far more targeted at the end of the year. Midfield class and pressure should be our priority. If we are in a position to take Rankine, then we should take him over lukiosis, simply because that is what we desperately need. If we can slot rankine and another a grade mid from free agency , then our midfield looks well balanced and set for a while. I think this is doable as we certainly have the salary cap, and it looks as though we will have the draft pick. . We also have 2 second rounders, and if those picks can net us a zac fisher type, then we start to look really competitive.

Who thinks that we have recruited too many introverts? Don’t we need a few more extroverts and mongrels?

Kruezer, Murphy, Cripps, sps, weiters and many others are introverts.

Ok, introverts can play good football but in a developing team when a lot of talk is required we seem to be lacking leaders.

Hawthorn, under Clarkson had a cache of extroverts and mongrels and, of course, they have a little mongrel of a coach. It worked for them.

On 3aw today one of the commentators said that they had spoken to some Carlton players and the consensus was that Docherty, not Cripps, will be the next captain because Doc is more of a vocal leader. Cripps was described as “quiet” by the unnamed Carlton players.

 

[rampar]

Extrovert introvert who gives a s**t. Competitive spirit is whats required and cripps has it in spades

 

[thylacine60]

 

[Chookaradley]

Extrovert introvert who gives a s**t. Competitive spirit is whats required and cripps has it in spades

He sure has it in spades, but does he have what it takes to bring his teamates along with him?. Can he drive the standards, be vocal, and direct his team mates on game day?.I love the bloke but the clubs got to decide whether we get the best out of him by just letting him play.

 

[gbatman]

It's been all about getting the age of the list right to give us time. We've started from so far back it's going to take us that long to get to a point where we can start improving the list.

Don't forget it took Hardwick 7 years and we are just 3 years in.

I don't think those mentioned names would improve us to a finals team.

We need to explore all avenues. We haven't explored free agency yet. This must happen soon, but maybe we can't attract free agents? Maybe we have been building a cheap/young list to go hard at them this year.

We're back where we started but younger and that's fine. Gives us time. Lets just not do something stupide.

I'd rather build a premiership side that can sustain it like perennial sides Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney etc have than build a team that finishes 5th then bombs.

Before getting good, all the good sides at least built up to being middle of the road or bottom 4 finals team through the draft before topping up with mature talent.

Our next challenge is to get there.

Yes we might get one or two young stars coming in but Simpson, Murphy, Kreuzer. Do we need to replace them too with equivalent talent too? When does it end!

This is why we must hit up some genuine stars from free agency, just so we can get ahead and get past this replacement phase and start our improvement and rebuilding phase.

 

[KohPhi]

My biggest question is why players would choose to go to a club like Essendon with all there dramas of cheating etc, rather than come to our club.

If we can’t even attract players against a club like Essendon with their recent history, how were we ever going to get the FA required for the op’s possible scenario.

Most players couldn't give 2 shits about the past I would think. It's more the football public that hold these thoughts.
Why would they choose Essendon?
- new state of the art facility
- money
- a better list (at this stage)
- probability of finals quicker than us

 

[thylacine60]

hysterical posting becoming historical - what a difference a day makes....

 

[KohPhi]

I think ur wrong, supporters as a majority have been calling for this club to do what it’s currently doing. There will always be those that are disillusioned.

SOS needs to start getting in some mature age quality as free agents, a Gaff and Jetta double will do me nicely as both won’t cost the earth but fill some glaring deficiencies in depth that we have.

I reckon Gaff will cost a bit as we will be competing with 2 or 3 other clubs for his services. Which is fine as he is exactly what we need in my opinion.

 

[BlueAbroad]

Great discussion. The loss of Gibbs (and subsequently, Docherty) is obviously hurting us from a senior player standpoint.

Are there any volunteers who'd like to talk about this on my podcast?

Would love to share your thoughts.

 

[Bluandblublu]

It's been all about getting the age of the list right to give us time. We've started from so far back it's going to take us that long to get to a point where we can start improving the list.

Don't forget it took Hardwick 7 years and we are just 3 years in.

I don't think those mentioned names would improve us to a finals team.

We need to explore all avenues. We haven't explored free agency yet. This must happen soon, but maybe we can't attract free agents? Maybe we have been building a cheap/young list to go hard at them this year.

We're back where we started but younger and that's fine. Gives us time. Lets just not do something stupide.

I'd rather build a premiership side that can sustain it like perennial sides Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney etc have than build a team that finishes 5th then bombs.

Before getting good, all the good sides at least built up to being middle of the road or bottom 4 finals team through the draft before topping up with mature talent.

Our next challenge is to get there.

Yes we might get one or two young stars coming in but Simpson, Murphy, Kreuzer. Do we need to replace them too with equivalent talent too? When does it end!

This is why we must hit up some genuine stars from free agency, just so we can get ahead and get past this replacement phase and start our improvement and rebuilding phase.

Good analysis.
Now that horror of the last two weeks has started to recede rational thinking can arise.

We have to stay the course with the club and suck up the hardships this year will produce.

Let’s just hope that some talented free agents can see into the future and join us.

 

[Bluandblublu]

hysterical posting becoming historical - what a difference a day makes....

And thank god for each new day!

 

[LanceRomance]

Tigers and dogs won flags but they weren't convincing like Hawks, swans, and cats.

Can't see the tigers winning another with that list but am interested to see if the dogs get their stuff together again.

 

[Teagueeee15]

Ahhh here we go. I was wondering how long Carlton fans could hang on before we enter doomsday mode.

We forget how poor our list was before Bolton and SOS. There was consensusbwithin the club and the broader football community that we needed to initiate a total rebuild. Last night we had the likes of Cripps (23), Fisher (20) Kennedy (21) SPS (20?) Dow (19) plus Murphy and Curnow going up against Pendlebury, Treloar, Adams and Sidebottom. What do we really expect? They simply can't run as hard for as long as these guys.

We can't jump at shadows here. This will take time but in the long run it will hopefully lead to sustained success. I agree we probably need to recruit some mature aged body midfielders who are quality to help out, but why would an A grader want to come to a rebuilding club?

I was born in 1989 so for the vast majority of my football viewing life we have been a bottom club. I missed out on the glory days and I hurt each and every time we lose. However, I also recognise that there is simply no such thing as a quick fix when you are building sustainable success. We have a bunch of young blokes not only learning to play AFL, but also learning to play with one another. In time this adversity will pay off but it the meantime it suits no one to start becoming impatient, calling for the coaches head or bringing into question the list strategy as we had no choice post Malthouse.

As bad as things seem now, it can and will turn around. I have full confidence in the current hierarchy to continue with a long term vision for the club and will not let losing games like the way we are right now detract away from that.

Yep, as Jeff Bezos the Amazon chief says, “if we have a good quarter, it is based on what we did 4-5 years ago, not what we did this quarter”. I think the same ethos applies to our performance in 2018 and the lag effect of SOS correcting two decades of terrible recruiting and list management. We may be in for a tough year this year, but in 1-2 years we will start to see the results of the 2015 66 game rebuild.

 

[1shay]

In my opinion, we dont need FA’s now at all.

Hawks showed how to deal with FA’s, you build a highly competitive team, let them develop and mature and create some sustained success, then when the level has peaked and begins to taper off, then pursue FA’s - this turns a one crack at a title in to 3 or 4.

The success in itself makes it attractive for prospective FA’s.

I cant understand why anyone would be concerned why bombers are attracting some players - there isnt one of them that has gone there in recent years outside of the draft, that id want to take on. Usually flakey types or basket cases themselves....

 

[gbatman]

We need to get past the point where we replace all of the 2015 best 22 with equivalent or better. We haven't done that yet. When we do, then we can start improving the quality of the list.

If our 2015 list was a young list then we could have started building from then.

But the list was old, poor quality and had cultural problems.

It's been a decent effort to make a team that is the same quality, just young.

We've got years ahead to make our current best 22, top finals quality.

That's the problem with rebuilding a side where most of the players need to be replaced.

When your Hawthorn and Geelong and you replace old players with players of equivalent quality you get back to being a top side pretty quick.

Terrible old poorly cultured list 2015 > Finish replacing old players with young ones and get the list young, not necessarily improve quality 2019-2020 > Start gradually replacing existing best 22 with better players. Young players matre and become better 2020 onwards = Top 4 2021

Hope this team matures into something good. Hope we can improve on many of these players. Draft well, nail some free agents, get games and maturity into this team. It'll take a few years but we will get there.

B: Plowman Macreadie Marchbank
HB: Docherty Weitering Williamson
C: O'Brien Cripps SPS
HF: Silvagni McKay Pickett
F: Garlett Curnow Fisher
OB: DeKoning Dow ????
IC: Kennedy Lang Cuningham Byrne

 

[Stamos]

One thing you note which I forgot to mention was how Hawks went out and got Omeara and Mitchell. Seems to be a wise investment. We've seemingly gone the opposite route getting rid of Gibbs.

Can't compare us to Hawthorn, a team that still has a stack of Premiership players, players that have developed in a club that was winning multiple Premierships, and had some very clear gaps (ie midfield), without the same necessary age restrictions that we have and were therefore able to have 2 very clear targets. One of which (O'Meara was a massive risk that we simply could not afford to take). And it is still very unclear whether this strategy will be successful or not.


As for the OP, Dogs and Tigers were largely built through the draft, and were then topped up with mature recruits once they were in contention. I don't agree with the premise that we are not going about it the right way. Also, you can't include what happened prior to Silvagni/Bolton as part of the current list/rebuild strategy. And that strategy has been exemplary. That's not to say that every decision has been perfect, every list manager/recruiter makes mistakes, but the strategy is right.

 

[Bluandblublu]

Tigers and dogs won flags but they weren't convincing like Hawks, swans, and cats.

Can't see the tigers winning another with that list but am interested to see if the dogs get their stuff together again.

Well. At this point in time the Tigers beat the hawks. And the dogs beat ESSENDON.

So much for abstract thoughts!