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Leiviathan

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We gain plenty. With him gone, presumably we buy someone else who would you know, score and create goals.

Lallana is dead set average and adds nothing to the team. Lovely lad and it's not his fault we bought him and bought him for so much. But he simply isnt up to it.

We cant accept mediocrity at Liverpool, which seemingly we have been doing for years. Hopefully Klopp shakes us up. He wont accept being shit.

Such a different mentality. Under Rodgers, he talked about improving and a project and finishing in the top four. Klopp speaks of winning titles.
Like Dylan said, in his current form, at his age, you are recouping $7m. For $7m you are getting more youth with potential which everyone here agrees is not what we need more of. Yes his is in a yuk vain of form. So is 90% of the squad. Confidence and momentum is a big factor. Rather than not being up to it, it is more than likely him playing well below his best. Therefore it makes more sense to persist with him as, at least, a squad player. At 29, theoretically it will be at his peak (discounting form) for 2 more years. We gain nothing by ditching him at his lowest value point.

This is not Football Manager guys.
 

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Cooldude

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Doesn't anyone find it a bit odd that with all this talk of the entire squad needing to be made-over and Klopp being the one to clean out deadwood, that he himself has said they won't look to buy anyone?
“They all come back. Buying players is not too easy.

“We don’t have too many striking options that is true.

“It is the same with the centre-halves. Martin (Skrtel) will be a few weeks still. Dejan (Lovren), not fit. Mama (Sakho), problems. Kolo (Toure)? Experience. Very experienced! But he is great.

“So then we had to do something. We are always watching the offensive ends for what we can do. Probably, maybe or never. Then we have to make decisions about where we want to go.”


He basically conceded he needs to look at options at attacking players the past week, so not true that he isn't looking to buy anyone.

And dunno why people are so sure that Lallana will only fetch 7 mil when we're looking at a market where Jonjo Shelvey is 14 million and Naismith is 8.5 mil
 

RossFC

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I reckon we could get about 15mil for Lallana, maybe 10mil for Milner, 10mil for Allen.

35mil would be about right for Gotze to replace Lallana. Markovic comes back from loan to replace Milner. Grujic could replace Allen.

As for strikers, Benteke out, Lacazette in with no money gained or lost sounds fine.
 

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Would be lucky to get anything for Milner, no other club would be willing to take on his massive contract

He's a good honest player so he'll be serviceable within the squad but it's a lot to pay per year for him
 

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Would be lucky to get anything for Milner, no other club would be willing to take on his massive contract

He's a good honest player so he'll be serviceable within the squad but it's a lot to pay per year for him
Man City did offer 15k more per week than what we did.

Arsenal probs offered something around what we did, But did not guarantee him a starting spot like us.
 

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I'm happy to have Milner - he's still good value on a free. And he's good on the bench as he'll come on and play a number of roles. Still if someone did give me 10 mil and he agreed to go, I'd definitely cash in.
It will be interesting to see whether Klopp goes with wholesale changes or just tweaks a bit. I think he's talking it down a bit at the moment in order to avoid destabilizing things. Benteke has to go, if only for his own sake - paying 35 mil for a guy to sit on the bench on then come on late to tap in a few headers is lunacy. Interesting that Lacazette is now talked of in that 20 mil range - would have taken twice that last year. At the moment Aubemeyang would cost a packet. It's why I really don't like getting 'flavour of the month' types. Getting Vardy, for example, wouldn't be value imo.
 

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Man City did offer 15k more per week than what we did.

Arsenal probs offered something around what we did, But did not guarantee him a starting spot like us.
City can afford to pay those wages to anyone to just sit on the bench

Arsenal would probably tell themselves they've dodged a bullet considering they have Walcott on 120k already

If Milner leaves it'd have to be a downward step for him and none of those clubs would pay those wages for him

And I hope Benteke can work himself into a chance before season's end and get into some form, coz otherwise I fear for him if Jurg keeps not playing him even though we have no other strikers.
 

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The Punter

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What we have to rail against is a "middle-tier club" mentality when it comes to signings.

We lost a world-class player when we lost Suarez and we're yet to replace him. Personally I would like to see some ambition.

I think Klopp likes Lallana, but he doesn't hit the scoresheet enough. Ibe's improving, but still lacks the final touch. Coutinho is a waste out wide. Firmino is certainly worth persevering with. Can and Henderson will make a great midfield duo.
 

RossFC

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If Milner leaves it'd have to be a downward step for him and none of those clubs would pay those wages for him
Yep I agree with you on that. I don't think a team like West Ham, Southampton or Watford would do a 10mil bid + the 150k a week.

And I hope Benteke can work himself into a chance before season's end and get into some form, coz otherwise I fear for him if Jurg keeps not playing him even though we have no other strikers.
Benteke is best used as a big man that comes off the bench. as Venkman said "paying 35 mil for a guy to sit on the bench on then come on late to tap in a few headers is lunacy".

I reckon we need to target Sturridge, Lacazette, Remy and Aubemeyang types and not Benteke, Carroll, Balotelli or Crouch types.
 
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“They all come back. Buying players is not too easy.

“We don’t have too many striking options that is true.

“It is the same with the centre-halves. Martin (Skrtel) will be a few weeks still. Dejan (Lovren), not fit. Mama (Sakho), problems. Kolo (Toure)? Experience. Very experienced! But he is great.

“So then we had to do something. We are always watching the offensive ends for what we can do. Probably, maybe or never. Then we have to make decisions about where we want to go.”


He basically conceded he needs to look at options at attacking players the past week, so not true that he isn't looking to buy anyone.

And dunno why people are so sure that Lallana will only fetch 7 mil when we're looking at a market where Jonjo Shelvey is 14 million and Naismith is 8.5 mil
Sounds to me like Klopp said that injured players will come back but given the current situation they got Caulker and have been looking at options up top. That's very different to the wholesale squad changes some expected and for which a new manager often has the prerogative to do.

Naismith is a good get for Norwich. Long I think of as a faster, but smaller Ings. I don't know if he's more profligate; similar things were said of Ings.

And in the battle versus subjectivity and confirmation bias, here's a table of what players have contributed in terms of goals+assists this season:

lfc1516.jpg


I added the total goals/assists in red and consequent per minute figure (plus the red crosses for injured players). So you can argue Lallana is the least consistent of our top attacking contributers, but not by much. Last season he had 9 goals/assists, ahead of Lambert (8) and Balotelli (7), but well behind Sterling (18), Hendo (17), Gerrard and Coutinho (both 13). He averaged at 320mins per gl/asst which could be accounted for by his injuries. I still see him as a midfielder who has been put further forward because he does know how to score, while Allen/Lucas miss way too much and Can is still learning. But his goal return isn't top notch. We were so good with Sterling and Coutinho in the middle because we could dribble past players to cause the panic/space for the forwards. Lallana can dribble, but overall he just seems too slow.

EDIT: Note that the strikers have understandably better per minute records and all are pretty good. We do score. This is my repeated motif, but I still can't help feeling it is the fragile confidence around the club that is the major problem. Mignolet has one of the best clean sheet records but is widely derided. When Sturridge plays we often score bags of goals and both Ings and Origi have looked like they could be speedy finishers that fit well with the rest of the team (we're yet to see Firmino score using speed, he looks more like the upgrade on Lallana, even if he does have a Kewell-like ability to lose the ball easily due to how often he is trying a lower-percentage options). The team is overwhelmingly young and like Spurs should get better with time, but in my opinion they have a higher ceiling because we are Liverpool and they are Spurs.
 
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BlueBen

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If Lallana is worth over £10m then there are posters posting on this board who are worth at least £5m.

Wouldn't mind keeping Milner around as a squad player. The squad lacks "winners" and he at least has experience when it comes to winning things. He is still useful in certain types of game but should not be starting for Liverpool every week.
 

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Milner would look alright next to a very good striker and another good wide option. The problem is there are too many players similar to James Milner on the pitch and that he is a 1 in 10 man

Benteke is best used as a big man that comes off the bench. as Venkman said "paying 35 mil for a guy to sit on the bench on then come on late to tap in a few headers is lunacy".

I reckon we need to target Sturridge, Lacazette, Remy and Aubemeyang types and not Benteke, Carroll, Balotelli or Crouch types.
Yeah that's why we're better off probably just selling Tekers, I can't think of many target man that can be converted into playing a different game. And if we have 3 lads who run the channels and they all get injured and the 4th one is the square peg, then might as well sell the 4th one and buy another one who runs the channels. If all 4 get injured then gg
 
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RossFC

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"Mignolet, Randall, Brannagan, Brad Smith & Benteke are set to start tomorrow against Exeter. (Paul Joyce)"

If true, Why is Mignolet playing instead of Ward? Surely Ward deserves a chance...

...Unless Mignolet has been dropped in the prem for Ward? It seems unlikely given he just re-signed.
 

Cooldude

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"Mignolet, Randall, Brannagan, Brad Smith & Benteke are set to start tomorrow against Exeter. (Paul Joyce)"

If true, Why is Mignolet playing instead of Ward? Surely Ward deserves a chance...

...Unless Mignolet has been dropped in the prem for Ward? It seems unlikely given he just re-signed.
I think it's just an important tie and Jurg wants the first choice keeper playing instead of taking a punt on WArd
 

Zidane98

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If Lallana is worth over £10m then there are posters posting on this board who are worth at least £5m.

Wouldn't mind keeping Milner around as a squad player. The squad lacks "winners" and he at least has experience when it comes to winning things. He is still useful in certain types of game but should not be starting for Liverpool every week.
Transfermarkt values him at 15m pounds. He's an England international, was very good for us in our winning streak last season. Ridiculous to suggest he's worth less than £10m when Naismith goes for 8.5, Borini 10m & Shelvey for 12m.
 

Cooldude

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Sounds to me like Klopp said that injured players will come back but given the current situation they got Caulker and have been looking at options up top. That's very different to the wholesale squad changes some expected and for which a new manager often has the prerogative to do.

Naismith is a good get for Norwich. Long I think of as a faster, but smaller Ings. I don't know if he's more profligate; similar things were said of Ings.

And in the battle versus subjectivity and confirmation bias, here's a table of what players have contributed in terms of goals+assists this season:

View attachment 208173

I added the total goals/assists in red and consequent per minute figure (plus the red crosses for injured players). So you can argue Lallana is the least consistent of our top attacking contributers, but not by much. Last season he had 9 goals/assists, ahead of Lambert (8) and Balotelli (7), but well behind Sterling (18), Hendo (17), Gerrard and Coutinho (both 13). He averaged at 320mins per gl/asst which could be accounted for by his injuries. I still see him as a midfielder who has been put further forward because he does know how to score, while Allen/Lucas miss way too much and Can is still learning. But his goal return isn't top notch. We were so good with Sterling and Coutinho in the middle because we could dribble past players to cause the panic/space for the forwards. Lallana can dribble, but overall he just seems too slow.

EDIT: Note that the strikers have understandably better per minute records and all are pretty good. We do score. This is my repeated motif, but I still can't help feeling it is the fragile confidence around the club that is the major problem. Mignolet has one of the best clean sheet records but is widely derided. When Sturridge plays we often score bags of goals and both Ings and Origi have looked like they could be speedy finishers that fit well with the rest of the team (we're yet to see Firmino score using speed, he looks more like the upgrade on Lallana, even if he does have a Kewell-like ability to lose the ball easily due to how often he is trying a lower-percentage options). The team is overwhelmingly young and like Spurs should get better with time, but in my opinion they have a higher ceiling because we are Liverpool and they are Spurs.
Actually Jurg said a long time ago it's up to the players to prove their worth between now and the summer so he hasn't exactly been foolproofing them. Of course he'd back his squad in public, he has never been one to throw people under the bus even at Dortmund, but he also axed loads in Dortmund when he needed to.

Those stats actually make our creativity look even more deplorable. I know you love to say everyone else who doesn't have the same point of view as you as having "confirmation bias" but it is something that at least goes both ways, at least with the interpretation of stats is concerned. First of all if you look at the time per goal, it actually makes for depressing reading, those are absolutely horrific numbers. But if you're gonna muddle it by doing goals+assist per min, which is a bit of an unreliable stat especially when someone has an assist means someone else has a goal, too, it's harder to interpret it with any clear confidence. Better off isolating both assist and goals per min and look at both stats separately to come into a clear judgment

At any rate, if we are really into this goals+assist per min, then it still looks bad, since too many of the players aren't involved in a goal in anyway between 3-6 matches and loads of them are first teamers. If you want a team that's able to finish in the top 4 you need to average closer to 2 goals a game and those stats have us at a goal per game at best which is very poor. It's a damning indictment on a lot of the players

And you can use stats to make anyone, even Stewart Downing and Adam look good, coz Comolli basically justified signing them on a spread sheet, coz they are amongst the highest in the league for chances created or crosses and other things. Mignolet has the most clean sheets if you look at the stats, but anyone who watches the game sees his howlers, sees the way his mistakes cost the team and also his very inconsistent shotstopping and know there's a problem. 12 out of 15 games we've conceded in the league this season, we've conceded with the first shot on target at our goal. Even on Sunday against the Mancs, he for some reason dropped to his knees for Rooney's chance, he just crumbled. It's Brad Jones territory of bad with him sometimes and the stats cannot pad that up.

I suspect if you isolate the stats to just league games which is the important bit it'd look even worse, we've had 25 goals in 22 league games this season, lowest of any Liverpool side ever at this stage. There's a reason why. You can hope by some magic some of these players will somehow come good, but the fact is this side is short on at the very least the wide areas and need more goalscorers on the pitch. This attack will definitely need a lot of rejig to get it to a standard where it's good enough to get into the top 4
 
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Those stats actually make our creativity look even more deplorable. I know you love to say everyone else who doesn't have the same point of view as you as having "confirmation bias" but it is something that at least goes both ways, at least with the interpretation of stats is concerned. First of all if you look at the time per goal, it actually makes for depressing reading, those are absolutely horrific numbers. But if you're gonna muddle it by doing goals+assist per min, which is a bit of an unreliable stat especially when someone has an assist means someone else has a goal, too, it's harder to interpret it with any clear confidence. Better off isolating both assist and goals per min and look at both stats separately to come into a clear judgment
Yeah, nah. It's pretty obvious that goals per minute stats make players who assist more look unreasonably bad; and there's nothing 'muddled' or "unreliable" in combining goals and assists. That shows an individual's direct contribution to the final score. The only way your interpretation makes sense is if I was suggesting the whole stats table shows that the team is scoring enough goals. Which I didn't say and which no-one is saying.

But feel free to consider those stats "deplorable", "horrific", "depressing" and a "damning indictment"... And in order to provide the stats you claim are missing, you can very easily use a calculator and divide "match time (mins)" by assists. Plus by following the link I provided in the OP to the Anfield Online stats page you can see who scored which goals in which competition. It's really that easy!

However, I'm not sure how you can say that putting 6 past Southampton in the League Cup doesn't really count... why wouldn't that be reasonably analogous to a PL game? Why aren't Lallana's goals in our two 1-1 results in the Europa League relevant to assessing his skills? All our cup results have been draws or one-goal wins except for that Southampton win, so the contributions seem important to me.
 
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Cooldude

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Yeah, nah. It's pretty obvious that goals per minute stats make players who assist more look unreasonably bad; and there's nothing 'muddled' or "unreliable" in combining goals and assists. That shows an individual's direct contribution to the final score. The only way your interpretation makes sense is if I was suggesting the whole stats table shows that the team is scoring enough goals. Which I didn't say and which no-one is saying.

But feel free to consider those stats "deplorable", "horrific", "depressing" and a "damning indictment"... And in order to provide the stats you claim are missing, you can very easily use a calculator and divide "match time (mins)" by assists. Plus by following the link I provided in the OP to the Anfield Online stats page you can see who scored which goals in which competition. It's really that easy!

However, I'm not sure how you can say that putting 6 past Southampton in the League Cup doesn't really count... why wouldn't that be reasonably analogous to a PL game? Why aren't Lallana's goals in our two 1-1 results in the Europa League relevant to assessing his skills?
Wow I thought you were learning to have a normal conversation then you go your full obnoxious patronizing tone, well done

Really you think goals per min make people who assist look bad and that's your reason for using goals + assist? That doesn't even make any sense but I guess it'd probably do in your world. I already explained why separating goals and assist per min makes more sense but I know from past experience with you that you won't have a bar of it even if you're completely wrong so go ahead

But you really think the majority of the players being involved in a goal every 3-6 matches isn't deplorable? Okay I guess your standards are more aligned with clubs like Sunderland then

Oh wait you didn't even compile those stats yourself, you just pulled it from some website and regurgitated it in some poor fashion, now that explains why you can't even interpret it properly

Actually I didn't say the league cup goals don't really count, I'm saying the league is the most important competition and therefore if you just look at the stats in the league, where it matters most, it'd actually look even worse. But feel free to put words in people's mouths

EDIT: Actually Sunderland's scored more league goals than us, so even that standard's a bit too high
 
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Given I'm arguing that our squad is good, here is my ideal game next season if we make no other signings, with starters in bold and back-up for injuries not. And yes, I have an extra player in midfield/attack. That's to reflect the wide/compact/two-up-top options needed depending on the opposition.

——— Sturridge/Benteke — Ings/Origi
——————— Firmino/Lallana
Ibe/Markovic — Coutinho/Allen — Hendo/Milner
————————— Lucas/Can
Flanagan —— Sakho —— Gomez —— Clyne
Moreno ——— Lovren —— Skrtel —— Flanagan
——————— Mignolet/Ward

Subbed on: Grujic, Ojo, Allan and if JK could make one each at 55', 65' and 75', then that'd be tops.

Flanno is on there twice, because if he's needed on the right then Smith can go in LB.

Transfers: Any talented recruit is welcomed as there is basically one player in every position still aiming to prove themselves, but first I'd aim to get a speedier (in thought and foot) player than Lallana, who could play in Coutinho and Firmino's roles. Maybe that will be Allan, but could we enquire after that Raheem Sterling lad? I also want a world-class replacement for Sturridge, since Benteke is a Plan B rather than a direct swap.

Lallana is 28 by the end of the season, and Can should eventually oust Lucas (29) with Grujic looking like a back-up. Other recruitments can therefore replace the ageing Milner (30) and Skrtel (31). Everyone else is young with Lovren and Sturridge born in '89 and everyone else the 1990s. Migs is the one exception, being 28 in March, but GK's obviously don't have to be young, and if he shows signs of losing reaction speed then I know a few people who would welcome a replacement. Until then I don't mind footage like this at all:

migSnolo.gif
 
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