The BigFooty Liverpool Army

Status
Not open for further replies.

peternorth

Facts Machine
Joined
May 6, 2005
Posts
82,664
Likes
38,613
AFL Club
Richmond
Moderator #62,476
I'm not sure we can play both Henderson and Can in the same team because they don't possess enough quality on the ball.

The problem is that Henderson is captain, so is going to play just about all the time (when fit), when he really should only be a squad player.
its a tough situation with hendo as captain, although we know it doesnt always mean he's a starter.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Posts
34,989
Likes
68,356
Location
Burn City
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
Henderson is second to Coutinho with his quality on the ball imo. However we need options outside of Can and Henderson that can provide more quality going forward outside of Allen, Lucas et al. More importantly some point of difference like being great at set pieces, long range shooting or genuine pace.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Posts
9,218
Likes
5,946
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
ATV Irdning
Gomez is just a kid. Looks super promising but has done nothing yet. Ings is backup at best. Henderson is decent but not world class. Ill give you Clyne and Sturridge.

Henderson, Lallana, Milner, Allen, Lucas. It's so vanilla. Who out of that lot would you think could grab a game by the scruff of the neck and win it. There is not a goal amongst them either.

We need to do better.
Goals are a problem as I've long said. You can see that with England too as Hendo and Lallana and Clyne in their last match were putting balls in but goals weren't coming. Lallana seems to lack a bit of guile in his finishing and Hendo is scoring less because he's further back the pitch. Clyne's crossing is also not really the inviting type (unlike Smith, where crossing is basically the sole reason he gets first team action).

But I think the description of the team being 'vanilla' is just a bit of, I dunno, like self-racism or something. Because they look like the 'plodders' we so often see in our games or the A-League or whatever they seem boring, whereas someone with a more exotic background seems to have more magic to them. Lallana's footwork when receiving the ball is pretty darn fancy. Of course we'd all like him to take the next step to turn that into beating players, but it so far hasn't looked like happening. Isn't Firmino similar in that regard? Better with goals, but worse with passing? People like Allen now he has long hair and a beard because it's a bit different. They still think Milner is vanilla despite 15 assists or something... It just feels like we always want a 'young gun' or a continental 'gem' as Houllier might have called it. The unfamiliar is more appealing because we don't know them and we think they could therefore be awesome. But so many of those buys fail. We only remember the ones which were awesome. Masch was in the EPL already. Gerrard home-grown.

But, yep, getting some goalscorers would be flippin' awesome so all the pressure isn't on our #9 and #10.
 

Zidane98

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Posts
34,692
Likes
14,228
Location
South End, AAMI Park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Socceroos, Liverpool, Victory
Winning teams in the past have always had plenty of "vanilla" players. Gary Nevillle was the very definition of a "vanilla" player but was consistent and worked his guts out. Ended up being a key member of countless titles.

You put Henderson next to a creative player and you've got the ideal midfield pair IMO.

Some people seem to think you need a team full of superstars to win the league. Leicester showed that isn't the case, hard work and good management with a touch of brilliance & flair on top won it for them. And their vanilla players played a big part.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Joined
Apr 2, 2000
Posts
61,495
Likes
17,883
Location
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Goals are a problem as I've long said. You can see that with England too as Hendo and Lallana and Clyne in their last match were putting balls in but goals weren't coming. Lallana seems to lack a bit of guile in his finishing and Hendo is scoring less because he's further back the pitch. Clyne's crossing is also not really the inviting type (unlike Smith, where crossing is basically the sole reason he gets first team action).

But I think the description of the team being 'vanilla' is just a bit of, I dunno, like self-racism or something. Because they look like the 'plodders' we so often see in our games or the A-League or whatever they seem boring, whereas someone with a more exotic background seems to have more magic to them. Lallana's footwork when receiving the ball is pretty darn fancy. Of course we'd all like him to take the next step to turn that into beating players, but it so far hasn't looked like happening. Isn't Firmino similar in that regard? Better with goals, but worse with passing? People like Allen now he has long hair and a beard because it's a bit different. They still think Milner is vanilla despite 15 assists or something... It just feels like we always want a 'young gun' or a continental 'gem' as Houllier might have called it. The unfamiliar is more appealing because we don't know them and we think they could therefore be awesome. But so many of those buys fail. We only remember the ones which were awesome. Masch was in the EPL already. Gerrard home-grown.

But, yep, getting some goalscorers would be flippin' awesome so all the pressure isn't on our #9 and #10.
So what are you saying? Hendo, Allen, Milner, Lallana are good enough and should stay and play. We finished 8th...

We need more quality in midfield. Much more.
 

Zidane98

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Posts
34,692
Likes
14,228
Location
South End, AAMI Park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Socceroos, Liverpool, Victory
So what are you saying? Hendo, Allen, Milner, Lallana are good enough and should stay and play. We finished 8th...

We need more quality in midfield. Much more.
Hendo out of that lot is the only one good enough to be a starting xi player. The others should be squad options only if we recruit well.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Joined
Apr 2, 2000
Posts
61,495
Likes
17,883
Location
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
SAF had plenty of vanilla players under him during his reign. Plenty were key parts of titles too. Should he have tried to sign superstars in every position?
Im not saying we shouldnt have a couple of vanilla players. It's just we have way too many vanilla players.

We should only have one of Lucas, Allen, Henderson and Milner. Not all four.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
44,236
Likes
21,714
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
SAF had plenty of vanilla players under him during his reign. Plenty were key parts of titles too. Should he have tried to sign superstars in every position?
He constantly splashed big money on big players, he knew that you need players like that to win trophies
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Joined
May 1, 2013
Posts
9,218
Likes
5,946
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
ATV Irdning
So what are you saying? Hendo, Allen, Milner, Lallana are good enough and should stay and play. We finished 8th...

We need more quality in midfield. Much more.
No. It's very clear what I was saying. That people railing against buying from the EPL or 'vanilla' players weren't really being fair. I have no problem keeping all the players you have mentioned. Allen has been great as a squad player, but he unsurprisingly wants first team football so we probably can't afford to keep him just for that. Lallana I think may be the same sort of player, but Klopp clearly likes his hard-work and he has stepped up. If Klopp wants to keep backing him, he can add more goals to his game. He has scored a few. Milner and Hendo have both lost goal-mouth influence by playing further back but both have real quality. I would keep them ahead of the others you have mentioned. I also think you are forgetting how good Ings was looking under Rodgers before his injury.

And BlueBen's idea that people are 'accepting mediocrity' is frankly silly. If we all protest and get FSG kicked out for not getting us the players we want then I think there's a greater chance of us falling further from the top spot than getting closer. Your 'accepting mediocrity' is our 'accepting the existence of big money clubs'. We can compete with all clubs, but there is a lot of big money washing around and statistically and practically that means we will miss out on the top level players until we can make the case on the pitch and make people believe in the 'project'.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Posts
34,989
Likes
68,356
Location
Burn City
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
Yeah, we were a bees dick away from winning the league with Glen Johnson, Mignolet, Jon Flanagan, etc in the first XI. There's a lot more to success than just personnel. I think a proper preseason under Klopp, a good run with injuries and our lack of fixture congestion will go a long way. Squad needs a clean out and fresh blood but the starting XI isn't as far away as you'd think.

Im not saying we shouldnt have a couple of vanilla players. It's just we have way too many vanilla players.

We should only have one of Lucas, Allen, Henderson and Milner. Not all four.
Milner basically won us the game against arguably the best team in the Europa League and put up 15 assists for the year. Change your tune if his name was Milnerinho and he has an undercut?
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Posts
34,989
Likes
68,356
Location
Burn City
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
BTW can we assess where our transfer situation is at /after/ we make the transfers. Mane isn't signed. Chilwell isn't signed. The media pumps out these stories every day to sell papers. Rumblings might be true but as of yet nothing has been indicated by the club.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Posts
9,218
Likes
5,946
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
ATV Irdning
BTW can we assess where our transfer situation is at /after/ we make the transfers. Mane isn't signed. Chilwell isn't signed. The media pumps out these stories every day to sell papers. Rumblings might be true but as of yet nothing has been indicated by the club.
Yep. That Scottish defender thing Cooldude mentioned sounded like they were trying to get LCFC to drop their price on Chilwell. But Klopp clearly knows what he wants and has said so publically when it comes to only wanting players who want to build the club, not be dropped straight into the UCL. We have to let the process plays out and if it all goes crap then the 'transition' to a post-Ayre period will happen even sooner.

We all want a return to the days of success. But we seem to have believed our own press in a way when looking at the trophies. The European nights under Benitez were great, but there was plenty of worry about how the team was back then (remember Kewell started the 05 final and all the gnashing of teeth over him from the fanbase). The point was that Liverpool was defined by backing their team no matter what. I worry that we are losing that. We managed to overcome Hicks and Gillette and have real owners. We've had one pretty good manager in Rodgers and now an on-paper better one who has done great things with unfashionable players.

Back that we have a plan. Back that they will fix problems. Back that there are smart people involved at the club.

We won 05 because we believed we could. We beat Dortmund this year because we believed we could. We dominate against the big teams when the fans are up for it. I see no reason to change this approach to become a nervy fanbase who are about to be world-beaters if we win, or in need of complete squad overhaul if we lose.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
44,236
Likes
21,714
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
We were a bees dick away from winning the league a lot due to Sturridge and Suarez, you need players like that to win the league, it's the top players to make the good ordinary players look better.

As it stands we can't attract those kind of players anymore, so I'd rather we just do the buy kids and develop route (except for our left back position coz we need someone good there now) than keep wasting money down the drain on overpriced players who can never win us the league

If we do anything this season it'd be because Jurgen Klopp is a brilliant manager and coach
 

Zidane98

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Posts
34,692
Likes
14,228
Location
South End, AAMI Park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Socceroos, Liverpool, Victory
Im not saying we shouldnt have a couple of vanilla players. It's just we have way too many vanilla players.

We should only have one of Lucas, Allen, Henderson and Milner. Not all four.
Lucas, Allen & Milner are pretty good squad players to call on. They shouldn't be starting though.

We've got problems if we're relying on any of those 3 for 30 games + per season though.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Posts
34,989
Likes
68,356
Location
Burn City
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
We were a bees dick away from winning the league a lot due to Sturridge and Suarez, you need players like that to win the league, it's the top players to make the good ordinary players look better.

As it stands we can't attract those kind of players anymore, so I'd rather we just do the buy kids and develop route (except for our left back position coz we need someone good there now) than keep wasting money down the drain on overpriced players who can never win us the league

If we do anything this season it'd be because Jurgen Klopp is a brilliant manager and coach
Sturridge was a fringe Chelsea player. Suarez, granted, we should be after more of his ilk. Definitely. But he wasn't the end product he turned out to be until around the time Rodgers came in - from memory his finishing was a massive concern. Amazing how that turned around.

I reckon Firmino was exactly a Suarez type signing. It's come off in spades. But there's still success to be had in buying from PL teams. We just have to be more savvy negotiators.
 

Zidane98

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Posts
34,692
Likes
14,228
Location
South End, AAMI Park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Socceroos, Liverpool, Victory
He constantly splashed big money on big players, he knew that you need players like that to win trophies
He also signed plenty of workhorses that be knew he could rely on.

A team full of stars will not win you the league. Man United post SAF are a pretty clear example of this.
 

simba_

ask me how to use this space for advertising
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Posts
11,731
Likes
6,660
Location
50XX
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, mew2king, Utah Jazz
Attacking Mid Depth:
Phil, Bob, Lallana, Alberto, Ibe, Markovic, Ojo,

Left Back Depth:
Moreno Flannagan Smith

Yet we are splashing $30m on a unproven attacker who realistically hasnt proven himself to be better than any of the above. Yet we are sticking with Moreno who single handedly cost us Europa as well as about 15 other goals throughout the year.
do you think Sadio Mane hasn't proven to the world he's more capable of consistent Premier League footy than Luis Alberto? i don't see those last 4 players as anything. Markovic and Alberto will be sold and Ibe will be extremely lucky to stay.

world class managers don't think like shit managers and i think we've been conditioned by shit managers lately. good managers don't need to see Markovic in 4 preseason games before deciding they're not good enough, they already know what they need in every position to succeed, especially Klopp with his year 0, he knows. that's why we're going for a proven man rather than betting on a few kids.

from what i've gathered world class managers never really gamble, that's why they get players they want in and play the men they trust and ignore kids unless they're freaks. the season is always too important to gamble - the next game is always too important to gamble. having 3 wide maybe players and 0 wide decent players is far too great a gamble to go into a season with.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
44,236
Likes
21,714
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
He also signed plenty of workhorses that be knew he could rely on.

A team full of stars will not win you the league. Man United post SAF are a pretty clear example of this.
Those workhorses he don't sign for big money most times, it usually comes from the academy. And those players only ever look better when carried by the superstars, their plight after he retired shows that once those stars stopped performing or are gone, those players got exposed

Ask City whether they prefer a James Milner or De Bruyne
 

Venkman

All Australian
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Posts
682
Likes
569
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Liverpool FC, Seattle Supersonics
I think Leicester (and us when we came second) shows that you don't need a superstar squad but just a few guys to go to superstar level at the right moment. For us that could be Cout, Firm and Sturra. Perhaps this is where Klopp sees it, he just needs other guys that can do their job.
Agree with the need to a top top CM though. I think we should pay overs for someone in that area - make someone an offer they can't refuse.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
44,236
Likes
21,714
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
Problem with Zielinski is Poland plays him no.10 or third mid, he isn't really a defensive colossus so to speak, and our main problem with midfield is not enough defensive cover

We score enough goals but concede too many leads, so as you say I'd rather splash the cash on a very good mid or LB, improve the defense, and leave someone like Mane
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Posts
34,989
Likes
68,356
Location
Burn City
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
Problem with Zielinski is Poland plays him no.10 or third mid, he isn't really a defensive colossus so to speak, and our main problem with midfield is not enough defensive cover

We score enough goals but concede too many leads, so as you say I'd rather splash the cash on a very good mid or LB, improve the defense, and leave someone like Mane
I still think Can and Henderson at the base of midfield can work and would prefer to buy that third, higher up mid, freeing up Coutinho to play as a cutting in winger where he can use his killer ability to finish or lay off a through ball.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
44,236
Likes
21,714
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
Yeah Can and Hendo in the midfield should be fine, although I'd still like a bit more passing ability, but one of those who can defend and pass don't grow on trees. Problem is one of them has to convert themselves to be more of a shielder, coz Can has this tendency of charging forward even though he is literally the last midfield guy and leave us open for the counter

I just don't wanna see Milner in a midfield two again, he should be roaming as one of the 3 behind
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom