The BIGGEST problem in the) AFL that no one is talking about (the lack of success in the industry. One trophy - 19 teams.

[Dan26]

The biggest problem in the AFL right now that no one is talking about is the lack of success in the industry

When I was growing up, it was a 12-team league with two trophies to win - the mid-season Cup, which later became the pre-season Cup (the minor trophy) and, of course the premiership in September (the major trophy)

Since then, we have increased the amount of teams by 50% (12 to 18) and decreased the amount of trophies by 50% from 2 to 1, which on the face of it seems ridiculous.

The Cup competition ran over 37 years from 1977 -2013 and had established its own separate history. I believe there has been a re-writing of history with the pre-season Cup - an incorrect narrative that no one cared about it. Sure, it became irrelevant towards the end when the AFL started to introduce gimmicks like 9-point goals and those silly 6-quarter matches featuring three teams. If the AFL were going to treat it with contempt then the fans would turn away.

But in the 1990's at its peak, the Cup competition was a good secondary trophy to win with some massive Grand Final crowds that far outstripped what those teams would get for a home and away game. And there weren't gimmicks either. They were just normal, regular-length games with no altered rules. Just look at these Grand Final crowds in the 1990's

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

* same 2 clubs met at the MCG in round one a week later, and crowd was only 24,882

** same two clubs met at same venue in round one a week later, and crowd was only 25,948

Those who remember the St.Kilda premiership in 1996 would testify that it meant a great deal to them. The scenes and emotion were amazing that night.

In English Soccer the main premiership is complemented by two Cup competitions - the FA Cup and Carabao Cup, which both complement the Premier League beautifully. Last year, Crystal Palace finished 12th in the title race, but won the FA Cup, giving their fans a chance to win a trophy which they would otherwise have almost no chance of doing. There is zero opportunity for something like that in the AFL

With a soon to be 19 (and maybe 20) team league on the horizon, this is only going to get worse. And I don't think the average fan truly understands the mathematics of it. Sure, superficially they do - we all know with 19 teams gives you a 1 in 19 chance. But, if you ask the average fan they still think their team can build via the draft and maybe contend to win a couple of flags in the coming years and that naive mindset persists whether it be 16 teams or 20. Their brain understands superficially, but they don't truly understand the mathematical reality of what more teams truly means.

The reality is, in a theoretically even league, if you miss your chance once every 19 years (say you lose a narrow Prelim) then a 19-year drought becomes 38 years. If you miss your chance again, then 38 years becomes 57 years and by then you're dead. A mere TWO missed windows every 19 years becomes a 57 drought very easily, when there is only one trophy to win.

The easier solution that requires no more additional games is to give more recognition to top spot. I'd do the following:

1. $50,000 to every player and coach of the team list who finishes top at a cost of 2.5 million. If the players care, the fans will care. The players must be on board
2. A newly designed elaborate trophy (I'd do a shield to differentiate it from the AFL premiership trophy, so that it has a different look)
3. Award the shield on the ground after the match in which top spot is secured
4. Don't use the word "minor-premiership". Call it something else. eg, the Ron Barassi shield, or something akin to that.

As for the Cup, a 19-team league would require 5 knockout rounds. Six teams in the first round to get down to the last 16, then it reverts to the 4-round 16-team knockout Cup. A possible way to do it would be have the first 3 rounds in the pre-season, doubling as pre-season games like it used to be from 1988 to 2013. Then, the Semi-Finals are played on a standalone weekend in between round 3 and 4. Then the Grand Final is played on a standalone weekend in between round 7 and 8. So, rounds 3 and 4 of the home and away season would be a fortnight apart, as would rounds 7 and 8. I'd also award substantial prizemoney to get buy-in from the players

So, as you can see, there is a way to introduce at most, two more trophies. If the AFL continue to increase the amount of teams, whilst simultaneously reducing the amount of things to win, you will get a situation where most fans will never experience any sort of success.

I think another one, or two secondary trophies (like in Soccer) to complement the main premiership is essential.

Do you agree? How would you do it? What are your solutions? Do you agree with me that the average footy fan doesn't truly understand the mathematics of it? In that, as the competition has expanded they still think their team is just as likely to win a premiership, when this factually isn't true?

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I love my footy but personally find the season too long as it is so not in favour of any secondary comp.

Starting rounds on March 5 is just ridiculous when we have a late September finish.

 

[Dan26]

I love my footy but personally find the season too long as it is so not in favour of any secondary comp.

Starting rounds on March 5 is just ridiculous when we have a late September finish.

We have practice games (which used to be pre-season cup games) that have already started under the current format THIS year)

 

[Mags98]

there are at least currently at least 5 trophies a club could win, cheers

 

[Dan26]

there are at least currently at least 5 trophies a club could win, cheers

No there's not. The womens comp is a separate thing not related to the mens. The McClelleand trophy which combines the mesn and womens comp is also meaningless because it combines two competitions, and hence has no relevance.

I am talking about a proper mens trophy that can be won by the mens AFL teams in addition to the main premiership. Like the old pre-season cup used to be. LIke how te mens English Soccer teams can win additional trophies other than just the Premier League title.

Currently there is just the one. And it needs to change.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Well it is being talked about, by the players no less. Articles on the topic were published last year (and a subsequent thread on here).

The easiest implementation of a midseason cup with a championship game in say a 20-team comp: the first 9 rounds of the season would have two groups of 10, with teams in the same group all playing each other once for premiership points.

R10 would then be a bye for all teams, except for the leader of each group who play each other for the midseason cup (replacing their matchup fixtured later in the season).

No need for additional H&A games, and practice matches can remain practice matches.

 

[Obeanie1]

No there's not. The womens comp is a separate thing not related to the mens. The McClelleand trophy which combines the mesn and womens comp is also meaningless because it combines two competitions, and hence has no relevance.

I am talking about a proper mens trophy that can be won by the mens AFL teams in addition to the main premiership. Like the old pre-season cup used to be. LIke how te mens English Soccer teams can win additional trophies other than just the Premier League title.

Currently there is just the one. And it needs to change.

Not correct.

Clubs play for other trophies throughout the season.

Western Derby is one.

NSW and Qld derbies the same.

Swans and Eagles play for the HMAS Sydney Cup close to ANZAC Day.

I recall other teams also play each other for cups. Historical rivals etc. Pies v Essendon ANZAC Cup.

Not sure if the minor premiers get anything.

 

[Robroy22]

The McClellend trophy could be jazzed up and given more appreciation than it has been afforded in the past.

In the 50's-60's (and maybe even the early '70's) the then VFL used to run a "night competition" for teams that finished outside the then top 4. So the bottom 8 teams played at least one match each (winners progressed) over a 3-4 week timeslot leading up to the VFL Grand Final.

those night series held at the Lake Oval (Sth Melb) were well attended and hard fought matches in very dim light! they allowed many teams to get a bit of success and for their players to be given a little more exposure than the fledgling TV programs did usually.

It was always fun listening to footy on the radio at night or getting to a night match in person.

 

[Purple Suit]

No there's not. The womens comp is a separate thing not related to the mens. The McClelleand trophy which combines the mesn and womens comp is also meaningless because it combines two competitions, and hence has no relevance.

I am talking about a proper mens trophy that can be won by the mens AFL teams in addition to the main premiership. Like the old pre-season cup used to be. LIke how te mens English Soccer teams can win additional trophies other than just the Premier League title.

Currently there is just the one. And it needs to change.

There are other trophies but society has shifted and no one cares about anything but the Premiership Cup. Footy is a long, endurance based game, it's too hard to take on the format of other competitions without losing it's soul.

 

[Dan26]

There are other trophies

No there aren't. Trophies between two teams in head-to-head contests don't count. Obviously. I am talking about trophies that all 18 teams can win.

but society has shifted and no one cares about anything but the Premiership Cup

I hate this argument. Of course no one cares about anything else. There is nothing else to win!!

The crowds for the pre-season Cup in the 1990's prove without doubt that people did care about winning it. It was a good secondary trophy. I went to the 1993 match between Essendon and Richmond and there were 75,000 people there. Don't tell me St.Kilda fans didn't care in 1996. Look at the emotion.



There needs to be a secondary trophy as a priority. It worked for 25 years from 1977 until the early 2000's before the AFL ruined it with gimmicks.

 

[Dan26]

The McClellend trophy could be jazzed up and given more appreciation than it has been afforded in the past.

In the 50's-60's (and maybe even the early '70's) the then VFL used to run a "night competition" for teams that finished outside the then top 4. So the bottom 8 teams played at least one match each (winners progressed) over a 3-4 week timeslot leading up to the VFL Grand Final.

those night series held at the Lake Oval (Sth Melb) were well attended and hard fought matches in very dim light! they allowed many teams to get a bit of success and for their players to be given a little more exposure than the fledgling TV programs did usually.

It was always fun listening to footy on the radio at night or getting to a night match in person.

Did you go to this game? 50,000 people at VFL Park to watch the Grand Final decided after the siren.

 

[Dan26]

Not correct.

Clubs play for other trophies throughout the season.

Western Derby is one.

NSW and Qld derbies the same.

Swans and Eagles play for the HMAS Sydney Cup close to ANZAC Day.

I recall other teams also play each other for cups. Historical rivals etc. Pies v Essendon ANZAC Cup.

Not sure if the minor premiers get anything.

Give me a break. I am talking about proper trophies that all 18 clubs are competing for, not head-to-head rubbish trophies. Did you even read the opening post, and the comparison with English Soccer?

Anzac Cup, lol.

 

[Robroy22]

Did you go to this game? 50,000 people at VFL Park to watch the Grand Final decided after the siren.

Nup, didn't go to that one. Waverley was the other side of the universe in those days and the carparks were death traps....you would literally be in there for hours after a game finished.

The Kerry Good goal was long after the siren though eh?

 

[Mr Meow]

there are at least currently at least 5 trophies a club could win, cheers

At least currently at least?

What about:

There are at least currently at least 5 trophies at least a club could at least win?

 

[Mr Meow]

No there aren't. Trophies between two teams in head-to-head contests don't count. Obviously. I am talking about trophies that all 18 teams can win.



I hate this argument. Of course no one cares about anything else. There is nothing else to win!!

The crowds for the pre-season Cup in the 1990's prove without doubt that people did care about winning it. It was a good secondary trophy. I went to the 1993 match between Essendon and Richmond and there were 75,000 people there. Don't tell me St.Kilda fans didn't care in 1996. Look at the emotion.



There needs to be a secondary trophy as a priority. It worked for 25 years from 1977 until the early 2000's before the AFL ruined it with gimmicks.

The crazy thing is people say St Kilda haven't won anything in recent times.

I guess people don't really count pre-season cups so they are pointless (unlike the FA Cup in England, for example).

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I agree there should be some sort of in-season "Cup" competition, by adding something meaningful to the prize, for example a mid-First Round Draft Pick allocated to the winner it will mean something immediately and, over time, mean something emotionally and from a competition perspective. Could give an opportunity for middling and rebuilding sides to strive for - and focus on, particularly those young teams on the edge of a breakout that may perform well in a limited-series "Cup" format, but who don't have the ability to grind it out and win a premiership.

I would do a simple single elimination knock out, and have all fixtures within the regular home and away season.

19 teams makes its complicated, but assuming we start this when we have 20 teams, it would go as follows.

20 Teams > 10 Teams > 5 Teams > 5 Team Round Robin > Cup Final

You would need to maintain some fixturing flexibility to ensure you can fixture Cup Games, but if you release fixtures in 5-week blocks you can likely secure the games relatively easily across the season.

Hardest part to fixture would be the "5 Team Round Robin", the alternative is to cut this down to 4 teams, and cut a team based on percentage or something.

 

[Dan26]

The crazy thing is people say St Kilda haven't won anything in recent times.

I guess people don't really count pre-season cups so they are pointless (unlike the FA Cup in England, for example).

They havn't won a September AFL premiership in recent times. Obviously they've won the lesser cup competition, and plenty of people enjoyed it. It's not meant to be as good as the big premiership. It's meant to be a secondary tophy. That's the whole point.

And plenty of people did enjoy it.

The below is NOT a picture of the stands in 1996. It is people who ran on the ground after the match in jubilation.








There has been a re-writing of history in regards to the pre-season cup. At it's peak in the 1990's it was a good SECONDARY trophy to win that was supported with big Grand Final crowds.

 

[Colonial]

Not correct.

Clubs play for other trophies throughout the season.

Western Derby is one.

NSW and Qld derbies the same.

Swans and Eagles play for the HMAS Sydney Cup close to ANZAC Day.

I recall other teams also play each other for cups. Historical rivals etc. Pies v Essendon ANZAC Cup.

Not sure if the minor premiers get anything.

The most important one being The Expansion Cup.!

 

[Dan26]

I agree there should be some sort of in-season "Cup" competition, by adding something meaningful to the prize, for example a mid-First Round Draft Pick allocated to the winner it will mean something immediately and, over time, mean something emotionally and from a competition perspective. Could give an opportunity for middling and rebuilding sides to strive for - and focus on, particularly those young teams on the edge of a breakout that may perform well in a limited-series "Cup" format, but who don't have the ability to grind it out and win a premiership.

I would do a simple single elimination knock out, and have all fixtures within the regular home and away season.

19 teams makes its complicated, but assuming we start this when we have 20 teams, it would go as follows.

20 Teams > 10 Teams > 5 Teams > 5 Team Round Robin > Cup Final

You would need to maintain some fixturing flexibility to ensure you can fixture Cup Games, but if you release fixtures in 5-week blocks you can likely secure the games relatively easily across the season.

Hardest part to fixture would be the "5 Team Round Robin", the alternative is to cut this down to 4 teams, and cut a team based on percentage or something.

I covered this in my opening post FlowersbyIrene.


"As for the Cup, a 19-team league would require 5 knockout rounds. Six teams (3 matches) in the first round to get down to the last 16, then it reverts to the 4-round 16-team knockout Cup. A possible way to do it would be have the first 3 rounds in the pre-season, doubling as pre-season games like it used to be from 1988 to 2013. Then, the Semi-Finals are played on a standalone weekend in between round 3 and 4. Then the Grand Final is played on a standalone weekend in between round 7 and 8. So, rounds 3 and 4 of the home and away season would be a fortnight apart, as would rounds 7 and 8. I'd also award substantial prizemoney to get buy-in from the players"

Under that scenario, the first three rounds of the Cup competition would be starting about now, no different to when the practice games have started.

 

[Mr Meow]

They havn't won a September AFL premiership in recent times. Obviously they've won the lesser cup competition, and plenty of people enjoyed it. It's not meant to be as good as the big premiership. It's meant to be a secondary tophy. That's the whole point.

And plenty of people did enjoy it.

The below is NOT a picture of the stands in 1996. It is people who ran on the ground after the match in jubilation.

View attachment 2530941



View attachment 2530942


There has been a re-writing of history in regards to the pre-season cup. At it's peak in the 1990's it was a good SECONDARY trophy to win that was supported with big Grand Final crowds.

Did they really enjoy it though? Are they cherished memories? I won't tag a stack of St Kilda supporters but maybe they can enlighten us.

FA Cup wins have always been celebrated much, much more. At their absolute best, the pre-season tournaments give you 5% more reason to care before the real stuff begins. A bit like the Charity Shield/community cup or whatever in England before the season starts.

 

[Toump Ass]

This is what 20+ years of no finals wins does to a bloke, very sad.

 

[Dan26]

Did they really enjoy it though? Are they cherished memories? I won't tag a stack of St Kilda supporters but maybe they can enlighten us.

FA Cup wins have always been celebrated much, much more. At their absolute best, the pre-season tournaments give you 5% more reason to care before the real stuff begins. A bit like the Charity Shield/community cup or whatever in England before the season starts.

There are two Cup Competitions in English soccer for the top clubs to win. The FA Cup featuring both professional and amateurs and the Carabao Cup featuring just the 92 professional teams. Arsenal is playing Man City later this month in the Carabao Cup final. This is more in line with the prestige of the former pre-season Cup in the AFL.

And yes, St.Kilda fans did enjoy it as evidenced by the footage. What kind of silly question is that Mr Meow "Did they enjoy it? " No, I'm sure they hated winning something, as evidenced by their utter jubilation. I've seen 5 pre-season Cups and enjoyed them all. Why wouldn't I? You've got two options: Win something or don't win something. Some trophies are more prestigious than others. That's fine.






No, not much enjoyment from the Saints fans. Did they enjoy it? Seriously.....

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I covered this in my opening post FlowersbyIrene.


"As for the Cup, a 19-team league would require 5 knockout rounds. Six teams (3 matches) in the first round to get down to the last 16, then it reverts to the 4-round 16-team knockout Cup. A possible way to do it would be have the first 3 rounds in the pre-season, doubling as pre-season games like it used to be from 1988 to 2013. Then, the Semi-Finals are played on a standalone weekend in between round 3 and 4. Then the Grand Final is played on a standalone weekend in between round 7 and 8. So, rounds 3 and 4 of the home and away season would be a fortnight apart, as would rounds 7 and 8. I'd also award substantial prizemoney to get buy-in from the players"

Under that scenario, the first three rounds of the Cup competition would be starting about now, no different to when the practice games have started.

Right so could do:

Announce Round 1 Fixture:

Round 1: 10v10, 6 losing teams with the best percentage get a second chance.

Announce Round 2 - 8 Fixtures after Round 1, with the 16 remaining cup sides split into sides of 8, playing each other only across the next 7 weeks so that Cup Matches can be made.

Round 2: 8v8, 8 teams advancing.

Round 3 through 8: 4v4, 4 teams advancing.

Announce Round 9-24 Fixtures after Round 8, with the semi-finals of the Cup in Round 9, and then the final whenever those two winning teams are due to play each other, likely by Round 12 as you know who the 4 potential teams are, so you can set their games across 2 weeks easily.

I think it could be successful, particularly if something substantive like a draft pick is given as a prize, rather than just cash. The fixturing would be slightly annoying, but at the moment they only announce about half the season anyway, so this would almost be the opposite, with limited fixture information available up front, but the entire season fixtured by Round 9, and it may even be able to occur earlier, im not sure if the full 7 weeks are needed for those matches to cut it from 16 down to 8, i the math may require less.

 

[Dan26]

This is what 20+ years of no finals wins does to a bloke, very sad.

It's not about me, you deranged lunatic. I've seen my team win 4 premierships. It's about the structure of the current 18 team competition and the fact that the AFL has increased the number of teams by 50% and decreased the amount of trophies by 50%, which is a relevant discussion point, which you didn't bother to even try to contribute to.

Idiot.

 

[jwikked]

Doesn’t matter how many different cups soccer teams can win. Only one cup matters in Aussie rules - the Premiership cup.

Having in season competitions, pre-season competitions and any other type of competition to win a cup that isn’t the Premiership cup is just silly.
And nobody would ever take it seriously.

Winning a plastic cup that nobody cares about isn’t a substitution for winning the Grand Final.