The BIGGEST problem in the) AFL that no one is talking about (the lack of success in the industry. One trophy - 19 teams.

[Billy ray]

the use of brackets in the thread title intrigues me

as for the content, nah.
i just want a 19 team, 18 game regular season, play everyone once, flip home and away each year.
then a final 8.
less, is more

 

[Mr Meow]

There are two Cup Competitions in English soccer for the top clubs to win. The FA Cup featuring both professional and amateurs and the Carabao Cup featuring just the 92 professional teams. Arsenal is playing Man City later this month in the Carabao Cup final. This is more in line with the prestige of the former pre-season Cup in the AFL.

And yes, St.Kilda fans did enjoy it as evidenced by the footage. What kind of silly question is that Mr Meow "Did they enjoy it? " No, I'm sure they hated winning something, as evidenced by their utter jubilation. I've seen 5 pre-season Cups and enjoyed them all. Why wouldn't I? You've got two options: Win something or don't win something. Some trophies are more prestigious than others. That's fine.


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No, not much enjoyment from the Saints fans. Did they enjoy it? Seriously.....

I don't need a history lesson on England. I've lived in both Australia and England many years conversing with fans of both sports and think I have a solid read on how they feel.

The Wizard/Ansett Cup just was not in the same stratosphere of legitimacy, importance or general interest as the FA Cup. The League Cup is a little closer but that's only because the FA Cup already exists. The huge, important history and window it opens to leagues below the PL are two reasons why. It runs through the season too. Pre-season will only ever feel like pre-season.

The Community Shield is the best example to compare this to and nobody here in England cares about it. People in Australia are generally not going to get excited by a pre-season cup returning. A few outliers like you maybe.

 

[T2B_]

Doesn’t matter how many different cups soccer teams can win. Only one cup matters in Aussie rules - the Premiership cup.

Having in season competitions, pre-season competitions and any other type of competition to win a cup that isn’t the Premiership cup is just silly.
And nobody would ever take it seriously.

Winning a plastic cup that nobody cares about isn’t a substitution for winning the Grand Final.

Indeed. If it wasn't brought up for trolling/amusement about our lack of overall success, would anyone even remember that Carlton won that Wizard Cup thing?

 

[Dan26]

I don't need a history lesson on England. I've lived in both Australia and England many years conversing with fans of both sports and think I have a solid read on how they feel.

The Wizard/Ansett Cup just was not in the same stratosphere of legitimacy, importance or general interest as the FA Cup. The League Cup is a little closer but that's only because the FA Cup already exists.

The Community Shield is the best example and nobody here cares about it. People in Australia are generally not going to get excited by a pre-season cup returning. A few outliers like you maybe.

The community shield doesn't count. It's not a Cup. It's just between two teams and is just a token charity trophy. I am talking about a proper trophy that all 18 teams can win as a legitimate secondary trophy.

The crowds for the pre-season comp in the 1990's BEFORE the AFL started introducing gimmicks were good crowds and cannot just be dismissed with a wave of the hand.

The question really is.... why were these crowds so big? What was the reason?

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

* same 2 clubs met at the MCG in round one a week later, and crowd was only 24,882

** same two clubs met at same venue in round one a week later, and crowd was only 25,948

 

[Mr Meow]

The community shield doesn't count. It's not a Cup. It's just between two teams and is just a token charity trophy. I am talking about a proper trophy that all 18 teams can win as a legitimate secondary trophy.

The crowds for the pre-season comp in the 1990's BEFORE the AFL started introducing gimmicks were good crowds and cannot just be dismissed with a wave of the hand.

The question really is.... why were these crowds so big? What was the reason?

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

* same 2 clubs met at the MCG in round one a week later, and crowd was only 24,882

** same two clubs met at same venue in round one a week later, and crowd was only 25,948

It ain't happening and for good reason. They aren't legitimate trophies. The FA Cup is.

 

[Dan26]

Indeed. If it wasn't brought up for trolling/amusement about our lack of overall success, would anyone even remember that Carlton won that Wizard Cup thing?

1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG

The Cup began to lose it's lustre in the early 2000's when the AFL started introducing gimmicks.

Up until around 2001, the Grand Final was a decent event. I went to a few of them

 

[Colonial]

the use of brackets in the thread title intrigues me

as for the content, nah.
i just want a 19 team, 18 game regular season, play everyone once, flip home and away each year.
then a final 8.
less, is more

20 team, gotta get rid of the capital from my club so Giants can be full time WS.

 

[Dan26]

They aren't legitimate trophies.

Rubbish. Just because something is secondary in importance to the main premiership doesn't make it "illegitmate"

What does that even mean, "illegimate".., Was the pre-season cup won by fraud and deception or something?

The question, which you didn't answer, was why were the crowds so big in the 1990's? Why did people turn up to the Grand Final year after year in big numbers? Do you have an explanation?

 

[Mr Meow]

1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG

The Cup began to lose it's lustre in the early 2000's when the AFL started introducing gimmicks.

Up until around 2001, the Grand Final was a decent event. I went to a few of them

Geelong won it in 2006 and then missed finals. I take your point that there were a few big games and crowds in the 90s, but it will never get back to that. It died.

I have a feeling SOO coming back got you hopeful about this idea but it's comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Mr Meow]

Rubbish. Just because something is secondary in importance to the main premiership doesn't make it "illegitmate"

What does that even mean, "illegimate".., Was the pre-season cup won by fraud and deception or something?

The question, which you didn't answer, was why were the crowds so big in the 1990's? Why did people turn up to the Grand Final year after year in big numbers? Do you have an explanation?

Forgive my poor phrasing. English is my 4th language.

Unimportant and irrelevant was more what I meant. To the point where supporters and opposition mock those who won PS cups without real season success. The FA Cup has never been thought of that way, and could never be tossed aside with people failing to give a shit.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Doesn’t matter how many different cups soccer teams can win. Only one cup matters in Aussie rules - the Premiership cup.

Having in season competitions, pre-season competitions and any other type of competition to win a cup that isn’t the Premiership cup is just silly.
And nobody would ever take it seriously.

Winning a plastic cup that nobody cares about isn’t a substitution for winning the Grand Final.

What if it came with a prize of a mid-First Round Draft Pick.

I.e Pick 10?

 

[jwikked]

What if it came with a prize of a mid-First Round Draft Pick.

I.e Pick 10?

The draft order is to help the teams that need it most, rewarding a team for winning a competition by gifting them a good draft pick goes against it

 

[Scotland]

What a bizarre thread. Of all the problems facing the AFL, only having one trophy to play for is not one of them.

No one gave a shit about the pre-season comp which is why the AFL got rid of it. IMO the main reason it died in the arse is the AFL got greedy and tried to make it bigger than a straight knockout (which was a lot easier with 16 teams). Who the hell cares about some 44 game pre-season comp format straight out of BASEketball?

Just because something was popular in the 80s doesn't mean it is prestigious and should be brought back. There's a reason SOO wasn't played for 25 years...

 

[FlowersByIrene]

The draft order is to help the teams that need it most, rewarding a team for winning a competition by gifting them a good draft pick goes against it

Haha, if that was the case there wouldn't be bat-shit crazy free agency compensation given out like candy, or priority picks given to expansion teams while historic teams get given access to bums from the state leagues.

 

[Toump Ass]

How is this iconic image not on the first page of this dumpster fire.

"Jubilation"

 

[Dan26]

What a bizarre thread. Of all the problems facing the AFL, only having one trophy to play for is not one of them.

It's a huge problem. The lack of opportunities for success in the industry is a massive sleeper issue.

No one gave a shit about the pre-season comp

Wrong. Explain these crowds then.

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

... which is why the AFL got rid of it. IMO the main reason it died in the arse is the AFL got greedy and tried to make it bigger than a straight knockout (which was a lot easier with 16 teams). Who the hell cares about some 44 game pre-season comp format straight out of BASEketball?

They got rid of it because:

a.) the stuffed up with gimmicks and stupid rules that the fans didn't want. If the AFL aren';t going to take it seriously, then the fans won't

b.) It changed from the knockout format to round-robin because it became logistically harder to schedule it after the comp expanded beyond 16 teams.

At its peak in the 1990 it was popular as proven by the big crowds. It's a total re-writing of history to say it wasn't.

Just because something was popular in the 80s doesn't mean it is prestigious and should be brought back.

It worked for 36 years. the first 25 or so it worked quite well, before the gimmicks.

Now that we are heading towards 19 teams, it is more important than ever to have a secondary trophy. I'd go for more recognition for top-spot myself but there needs to be something. It's a massive sleeper issue.

With one trophy to win, you miss your window once, then 19 years become 38 years. You miss it twice then 38 becomes 57 years.

In fact when I hear responses like yours, it makes my opinion below even stronger:


...I don't think the average fan truly understands the mathematics of it. Sure, superficially they do - we all know with 19 teams gives you a 1 in 19 chance. But, if you ask the average fan they still think their team can build via the draft and maybe contend to win a couple of flags in the coming years and that naive mindset persists whether it be 16 teams or 20. Their brain understands superficially, but they don't truly understand the mathematical reality of what more teams truly means....."

 

[Dan26]

How is this iconic image not on the first page of this dumpster fire.

"Jubilation"

And how about this in 1996, when the Saints hadn't won ANYTHING in the previous 30 years? Have you erased this from history? There is nothing wrong with a secondary trophy to win as the comeptition has got bigger and the opportunities for success have massively decreased.

 

[Scotland]

It's a huge problem. The lack of opportunities for success in the industry is a massive sleeper issue.



Wrong. Explain these crowds then.

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**





They got rid of it because:

a.) the stuffed up with gimmicks and stupid rules that the fans didn't want. If the AFL aren';t going to take it seriously, then the fans won't

b.) It changed from the knockout format to round-robin because it became logistically harder to schedule it after the comp expanded beyond 16 teams.

At its peak in the 1990 it was popular as proven by the big crowds. It's a total re-writing of history to say it wasn't.




It worked for 36 years. the first 25 or so it worked quite well, before the gimmicks.

Now that we are heading towards 19 teams, it is more important than ever to have a secondary trophy. I'd go for more recognition for top-spot myself but there needs to be something. It's a massive sleeper issue.

With one trophy to win, you miss your window once, then 19 years become 38 years. You miss it twice then 38 becomes 57 years.

In fact when I hear responses like yours, it makes my opinion below even stronger:


...I don't think the average fan truly understands the mathematics of it. Sure, superficially they do - we all know with 19 teams gives you a 1 in 19 chance. But, if you ask the average fan they still think their team can build via the draft and maybe contend to win a couple of flags in the coming years and that naive mindset persists whether it be 16 teams or 20. Their brain understands superficially, but they don't truly understand the mathematical reality of what more teams truly means....."

Seek help.

 

[Dee Train]

It's not about me, you deranged lunatic. I've seen my team win 4 premierships. It's about the structure of the current 18 team competition and the fact that the AFL has increased the number of teams by 50% and decreased the amount of trophies by 50%, which is a relevant discussion point, which you didn't bother to even try to contribute to.

Idiot.

Jeez calm down mate….Essendon will win a final one day. I think…

 

[Dan26]

Seek help.

Pathetic. How about an attempt to counter anything I said, which you completely failed to do.

 

[boncer34]

It's a huge problem. The lack of opportunities for success in the industry is a massive sleeper issue.



Wrong. Explain these crowds then.

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**





They got rid of it because:

a.) the stuffed up with gimmicks and stupid rules that the fans didn't want. If the AFL aren';t going to take it seriously, then the fans won't

b.) It changed from the knockout format to round-robin because it became logistically harder to schedule it after the comp expanded beyond 16 teams.

At its peak in the 1990 it was popular as proven by the big crowds. It's a total re-writing of history to say it wasn't.




It worked for 36 years. the first 25 or so it worked quite well, before the gimmicks.

Now that we are heading towards 19 teams, it is more important than ever to have a secondary trophy. I'd go for more recognition for top-spot myself but there needs to be something. It's a massive sleeper issue.

With one trophy to win, you miss your window once, then 19 years become 38 years. You miss it twice then 38 becomes 57 years.

In fact when I hear responses like yours, it makes my opinion below even stronger:


...I don't think the average fan truly understands the mathematics of it. Sure, superficially they do - we all know with 19 teams gives you a 1 in 19 chance. But, if you ask the average fan they still think their team can build via the draft and maybe contend to win a couple of flags in the coming years and that naive mindset persists whether it be 16 teams or 20. Their brain understands superficially, but they don't truly understand the mathematical reality of what more teams truly means....."

It wasnt the gimmicks.

Clubs stopped giving a shit because they became fully professional and started managing minutes.

When they stopped taking it seriously so did the fans.

Simple.

 

[Dan26]

Doesn’t matter how many different cups soccer teams can win. Only one cup matters in Aussie rules - the Premiership cup.

Having in season competitions, pre-season competitions and any other type of competition to win a cup that isn’t the Premiership cup is just silly.
And nobody would ever take it seriously.

So, how do you explain this:

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

Winning a plastic cup that nobody cares about isn’t a substitution for winning the Grand Final.

I despise this comment. It's like you failed to read anything I've written. Who said winning a secondary trophy is a substitution for winning the main one? You're allowed to win both you know? Jesus Christ.

 

[Dan26]

It wasnt the gimmicks.

Clubs stopped giving a shit because they became fully professional and started managing minutes.

When they stopped taking it seriously so did the fans.

Simple.

There is some truth in this, but I think the gimmicks were more important in its demise. Managing minutes (which they do in Soccer) doesn't mean that Cup competitions just automatically cease to exist. They are part of the landscape.

Some substantial prize money for the players (and for finishing on top too) is always a good incentive.

 

[boncer34]

There is some truth in this, but I think the gimmicks were more important in its demise. Managing minutes (which they do in Soccer) doesn't mean that Cup competitions just automatically cease to exist. They are part of the landscape.

Some substantial prize money for the players (and for finishing on top too) is always a good incentive.

I didnt say that meant they automatically cease to exist.

The lack of interest did that.

 

[Scotland]

At its peak in the 1990 it was popular as proven by the big crowds. It's a total re-writing of history to say it wasn't.

But they didn't get rid of it in 1990. If we're judging things on decades prior then my argument to you is that the AFL never should have got rid of SOO in 1999 because fans were crammed in like sardines in 1986. Nevermind that in 1999 fans had lost interest, players weren't taking it seriously... you know, the reasons the AFL got rid of it.

The last 'real' pre-season cup was 2010. 15 games, ran from 12th Feb to 13th March. GF crowd of 42k, average crowd of 15k. Hardly a runaway success using venues that hold 50,000. I don't know if you noticed, but Opening Round starts March 5th, so you're either pushing the season into October, pushing pre-season into January or getting rid of the break between pre-season and the season proper to fit in just a 15 game knockout. Season is now 25 rounds long plus 5 weeks of finals. Who seriously wants a 35 week program to revive a comp no one cares about?