The BIGGEST problem in the) AFL that no one is talking about (the lack of success in the industry. One trophy - 19 teams.

[jwikked]

So, how do you explain this:

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

People enjoy going to the football lol. It’s as simple as that. If essendon played north Melbourne and both teams were actually good, they’d get probably more than 57,000 for a normal game.

Port vs the lions would be higher.

All those games are well attended because all those teams were playing good football

 

[Corn Cobbers]

So, how do you explain this:

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

It was a great comp until the 9 point goal and crap experimental rules killed it

Probably died when we lost Waverley which was the comp's natural home

No way back for it now unless the real season is significantly shortened

 

[Scotland]

Can someone pls explain this?

1992 Hawthorn Fitzroy ..................... 49,453 WP
1993 Essendon Richmond ..................75,533 WP
1994 Essendon Adelaide ................... 43,925 WP
1995 North Melbourne Adelaide .......... 39,393 WP*
1996 St Kilda Carlton........................ 66,888 WP
1997 Carlton Geelong ....................... 74,786 MCG
1998 North Melbourne St Kilda ............ 63,760 WP
1999 Hawthorn Port Adelaide............... 49,874 WP
2000 Essendon North Melbourne .......... 56,720 MCG
2001 Port Adelaide Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 AAMI**

V important that someone explains this.

 

[boncer34]

But they didn't get rid of it in 1990. If we're judging things on decades prior then my argument to you is that the AFL never should have got rid of SOO in 1999 because fans were crammed in like sardines in 1986. Nevermind that in 1999 fans had lost interest, players weren't taking it seriously... you know, the reasons the AFL got rid of it.

The last 'real' pre-season cup was 2010. 15 games, ran from 12th Feb to 13th March. GF crowd of 42k, average crowd of 15k. Hardly a runaway success using venues that hold 50,000. I don't know if you noticed, but Opening Round starts March 5th, so you're either pushing the season into October, pushing pre-season into January or getting rid of the break between pre-season and the season proper to fit in just a 15 game knockout. Season is now 25 rounds long plus 5 weeks of finals. Who seriously wants a 35 week program to revive a comp no one cares about?

I'm sure Essendon play a grand final later than 2010.

 

[Scotland]

It was a great comp until the 9 point goal and crap experimental rules killed it

Who remembers the backlash when the AFL used the pre-season comp to trial new rules?

No one? Oh.

 

[Dan26]

People enjoy going to the football lol. It’s as simple as that. If essendon played north Melbourne and both teams were actually good, they’d get probably more than 57,000 for a normal game.

The 2000 crowd was down because the season was moved forward a month because of the Olympics. The Grand Final was played very early

The St.Kilda Carlton crowd of 66,888 was more than those two clubs have ever got for a home and and away game. Can you explain why?

The St.Kilda- North Melbourne crowd of 63,760 was 20,000 more than those two clubs have ever got for a home and away game. Can you explain why?

I can. It's because at the time, the pre-season Cup was something that was worth winning.

What's your explanation. Fans wouldn't turn up if they didn't care.

Port vs the lions would be higher.

Can you explain this:

2001 Pre-season Grand Final: Port Adelaide v Brisbane Lions ......... 35,304 Football park.

Same two clubs seven days later at the same venue in Round 1: 25,948

Why the difference? What's your explanation?

All those games are well attended because all those teams were playing good football

Well done. You're learning.

 

[Dan26]

It was a great comp until the 9 point goal and crap experimental rules killed it

Probably died when we lost Waverley which was the comp's natural home

All good points

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Who remembers the backlash when the AFL used the pre-season comp to trial new rules?

No one? Oh.

You don't for example remember the wonderful "play on if the ball stays in after hitting the goal post" rule?

They turned it into a farce, the backlash was at the gate and it died

 

[Scotland]

You don't for example remember the wonderful "play on if the ball stays in after hitting the goal post" rule?

They turned it into a farce, the backlash was at the gate and it died

I remember it, I just don't remember anyone caring. If they competition was so prestigious surely someone would have said "please don't do this".

 

[Toump Ass]

Who cares if Saints fans liked it.

 

[Dan26]

But they didn't get rid of it in 1990. If we're judging things on decades prior then my argument to you is that the AFL never should have got rid of SOO in 1999 because fans were crammed in like sardines in 1986. Nevermind that in 1999 fans had lost interest, players weren't taking it seriously... you know, the reasons the AFL got rid of it.

The last 'real' pre-season cup was 2010. 15 games, ran from 12th Feb to 13th March. GF crowd of 42k, average crowd of 15k. Hardly a runaway success using venues that hold 50,000. I don't know if you noticed, but Opening Round starts March 5th, so you're either pushing the season into October, pushing pre-season into January or getting rid of the break between pre-season and the season proper to fit in just a 15 game knockout. Season is now 25 rounds long plus 5 weeks of finals. Who seriously wants a 35 week program to revive a comp no one cares about?

At least you've attempted a response this time and put some effort in which is better than that dismissive insulting garbage you posted the first time. Well done.

You've hit on a good point about the length of the season.

I despise Gather Round and think it adds nothing to the comp other than a totally unnecessary 23rd match which was a vanity project from the AFL because the NRL did it first.

The expanded finals series also now has as many as 5 finals being required to win. I've proposed a much better knockout final-10, where no team has to win more than 4 games (and the top teams 3)

This means it used to be a maximum 26-match comp (22 plus a maximum of four finals). Now it's a maximum 28-match comp (23 plus up to 5 finals)

That extra two matches from 26 to 28 might not sound much but it totally imbalances the competition.

There is easily room in 26-match schedule (including finals) to start the first three rounds of a knockout rounds of the pre-season Cup around now and play the semi-final and Grand Final on standalone weekends after the home and away season has started. I did the numbers on it and it works. There would need to be some strong incentives in terms of prize money, but it can fit in the schedule.

Whether you like it is purely opinion, but it can be fitted in.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I remember it, I just don't remember anyone caring. If they competition was so prestigious surely someone would have said "please don't do this".

Well somehow it went from peak crowds of 75000 to ceasing to exist

Maybe it just died of old age

 

[Scotland]

43k to the pre-season GF at Docklands in 2003, the first year of 9 point goals.

45k in 2011, with 9 point goals having been retained for 8 years.

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS?

 

[Scotland]

At least you've attempted a response this time and put some effort in which is better than that dismissive insulting garbage you posted the first time. Well done.

You've hit on a good point about the length of the season.

I despise Gather Round and think it adds nothing to the comp other than a totally unnecessary 23rd match which was a vanity project from the AFL because the NRL did it first.

The expanded finals series also now has as many as 5 finals being required to win. I've proposed a much better knockout final-10, where no team has to win more than 4 games (and the top teams 3)

This means it used to be a maximum 26-match comp (22 plus a maximum of four finals). Now it's a maximum 28-match comp (23 plus up to 5 finals)

That extra two matches from 26 to 28 might not sound much but it totally imbalances the competition.

There is easily room in 26-match schedule (including finals) to start the first three rounds of a knockout rounds of the pre-season Cup around now and play the semi-final and Grand Final on standalone weekends after the home and away season has started. I did the numbers on it and it works. There would need to be some strong incentives in terms of prize money, but it can fit in the schedule.

Whether you like it is purely opinion, but it can be fitted in.

You want the pre-season competition to overlap the H&A season?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yes we should water down the prestige of winning the premiership so that other teams can win lesser competitions. Said no one ever.

Let’s go a step further and give every club a participation award too?

 

[Dan26]

You want the pre-season competition to overlap the H&A season?

It did between 1977 and 1987. The Grand Final used to be played in July on a mid-week Tuesday night.

I'm NOT suggesting that. I'm suggesting starting it in the pre-season and haivng it conclude on two standalone weekends (semi-finals, then the final), that don't interfere with the home and away games.

I mentioned all this in the opening post.

 

[Dan26]

43k to the pre-season GF at Docklands in 2003, the first year of 9 point goals.

45k in 2011, with 9 point goals having been retained for 8 years.

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS?

Absolutely.

2011 was the two biggest Victorian clubs playing off. (Coll and Ess)

Geez, that was easy.

 

[Dan26]

Yes we should water down the prestige of winning the premiership so that other teams can win lesser competitions. Said no one ever.

Winning the various Cup competition in Soccer do not "water down" the prestige of winning the EPL title.

My club winning the pre-season cup in 1993 did not "water down" the AFL premiership 6 months later. Same in the year 2000.

My God some people are absolute dipshits.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

43k to the pre-season GF at Docklands in 2003, the first year of 9 point goals.

45k in 2011, with 9 point goals having been retained for 8 years.

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS?

Those are pretty crappy crowds compared to the 90s when the format was at its peak without the dumbass deviations

It all fits

 

[Scotland]

Well somehow it went from peak crowds of 75000 to ceasing to exist

Maybe it just died of old age

Times change. Melbourne Victory used to move some fixtures to Docklands because AAMI Park/Olympic Park wasn't big enough. That sounds hard to believe in 2026. Remember the tri-series? Warney coming out in a helmet to help Alec Stewart calm the rowdy Bay 13 fans, Michael Bevan hitting Roger Harper for 4 off the last ball... peak 80s/90s Summer entertainment. Well he haven't hosted a tri-series for over a decade. Why? Because it lots its appeal. The cricket calendar is stacked year round and T20 came along and the BBL took off. One dayers were the ACB's meal ticket in the 90s and now they aren't even on FTA TV.

There is so much footy now people just don't have the same appetite. It's great that in 1995 or whenever 60,000 people attended a pre-season GF but 30 years later I can watch 200+ games of footy live in 4K if I want to. You could reorganise the pre-season to something resembling what it was in past years to give all 18 clubs a trophy to play for and the reception would be lukewarm at best. I mean there would be players running around in the AFL who don't even know how the McClelland Trophy is awarded, that's how prestigious anything that isn't winning the flag is.

 

[jwikked]

The St.Kilda Carlton crowd of 66,888 was more than those two clubs have ever got for a home and and away game. Can you explain why?

The St.Kilda- North Melbourne crowd of 63,760 was 20,000 more than those two clubs have ever got for a home and away game. Can you explain why?

Because ever since then, none of those teams have ever been really good at the same time ever again.

Nobody gives a shit about other trophies. Only one matters.

Participation ribbons aren’t the answer

 

[Dan26]

Because ever since then, none of those teams have ever been really good at the same time ever again.

Nobody gives a shit about other trophies. Only one matters.

No one has ever said that the pre-season Cup was even remotely on the level of the main prize. Of couse it isn't.

But to suggest no one cared about the Cup in the 1990's when the Grand Final crowds were massive is a total lie.

You don't get 75,000 to a Game unless people care about it. That's a fact.

It existed from 1977-2013 with its own history separate to that of the main season and had its own memorable moments. Hell, Timmy Watson's most famous individual highlight didn't come in a home and away match or a September final - it came in 1981 when he leapt the pack in the 1981 night Grand Final against Carlton.

To say no one cared about it so arrogantly and dismissively is a total lie. The crowds proved that isn't true. It's not supposed to be compared to the main premiership - a secondary trophy is designed to complement it. It works in other sports and worked well in Aussie Rules for at least the first 25 years of the 37 years period from 1977 - 2013.

 

[jwikked]

No one has ever said that the pre-season Cup was even remotely on the level of the main prize. Of couse it isn't.

But to suggest no one cared about the Cup in the 1990's when the Grand Final crowds were massive is a total lie.

You don't get 75,000 to a Game unless people care about it. That's a fact.

It existed from 1977-2013 with its own history separate to that of the main season and had its own memorable moments. Hell, Timmy Watson's most famous individual highlight didn't come in a home and away match or a September final - it came in 1981 when he leapt the pack in the 1981 night Grand Final against Carlton.

To say no one cared about it so arrogantly and dismissively is a total lie. The crowds proved that isn't true. It's not supposed to be compared to the main premiership - a secondary trophy is designed to complement it. It works in other sports and worked well in Aussie Rules for at least the first 25 years of the 37 years period from 1977 - 2013.

How old are you? I bet you weren’t around when these games were played

 

[Billy ray]

So long as any new competition is guaranteed that nick daicos gets a medal - i am in

 

[Scotland]

Winning the various Cup competition in Soccer do not "water down" the prestige of winning the EPL title.

My club winning the pre-season cup in 1993 did not "water down" the AFL premiership 6 months later. Same in the year 2000.

My God some people are absolute dipshits.

The FA Cup and League Cups are separate competitions to winning any of the divisions of the Football League. Because it's a pyramid system. It's not just the 20 Premier League clubs all playing each other for a bonus trophy because only one team can win the league and it's not fair Man City keep winning it and not Bournemouth - which is what you are proposing. Essendon play in the AFL and (allegedly) compete for the AFL premiership. Why do they need compete for another trophy against the same 17 teams? It's an 18 team and now 10 teams can win the flag. Shit all you need to do to have something to play for in September is be just below average. It's not a first past the post system where 15 teams are out of the race by July.

It did between 1977 and 1987. The Grand Final used to be played in July on a mid-week Tuesday night.

I'm NOT suggesting that. I'm suggesting starting it in the pre-season and haivng it conclude on two standalone weekends (semi-finals, then the final), that don't interfere with the home and away games.

I mentioned all this in the opening post.

What does 1977-1987 have to do with anything? Do you want to bring back the Escort Cup and have Swan Districts in stripes playing Collingwood wearing a yoke jumper? We had the Foxtel Cup and it folded after 4 years due to lack of interest. It would be embarrassing to have any competition where AFL sides competed against VFL/SANFL/WAFL sides as the gulf in talent and professionalism is so large.

There is not a chance in hell the AFL are going to dedicate one standalone weekend let alone two to playing finals of a knock-out comp that started in pre-season. This is fanciful stuff.