The Bolton-Silvagni Alliance

blueblooded

Club Legend
Feb 10, 2007
1,174
778
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Celtics, AC Milan
The only measure is premierships in 20 years time no one will know who was second.
GWS will have multiple premierships by the time this generation is finished. Bookmark that. They’ve built nicely, learnt adversity early, lost big finals which will make them hungrier. They’ll be thereabouts for at least another 5 to 6 seasons.

As hard as this is at the moment and it’s hard to watch this season and I’m not sure where a win is coming from in the first half of the year now.... we must stay the course over the next few years. We are here now. Kids must play.

Play the kids and stay the course we have no choice
 

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blueblooded

Club Legend
Feb 10, 2007
1,174
778
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Celtics, AC Milan
I saw an interesting comparison with the Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA. Not too disimilar to us. A basket case since Alen Iverson left in the mid 00s. A proud basketball history from the 60s, 70s and 80s but largely irrelevant since then sans a few AI inspired years in the early 00s. Could not attract a free agent to save themselves, literally a nothing irrelevant franchise.

4 or 5 years ago they got an inexperienced coach (Brett brown) they told their supporters they will rebuild the foundation of the club (the only way they could being such an irrelevant and unattractive franchise - through the draft) and they asked everyone players, supporters and all to trust the process. It would be hard, not many wins early while the talent was assembled, learnt and played. The third year of the rebuild they had the worst record of the first three seasons under brown and the worst winning percentage in franchise history just 10 wins in an 82 game season. (Seasons 1 and 2 were 19 wins and 18 wins).

In year 4 as the kids started to mature a bit they won 28 games.

In year 5 (this season) the process has delivered a winning record and the first playoff series win in 7 seasons for the franchise. Not only that they have the best young player in the NBA in Ben Simmons with another two absolute guns in Joel Embiid and Fulltze and a much deeper roster. Many believe the process will now deliver a dynasty to Philadelphia.

Sound familiar??
Trust SOS Bolts and the process, it’s hard but as you can see year 3 is hardest. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
 

teagueyubeauty

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,335
6,392
Somewhere there
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Liverpool, Yankees
Similarities are there no doubt, but it’s a lot different to rebuild when you have a starting 18 instead of a starting 5.

That’s diluted somewhat by the fact we kept a senior core over 3 trade periods diluting it slowly but I think everyone that is a Carlton supporter/member needs to remember after taking the list back to ground zero.
 

blueblooded

Club Legend
Feb 10, 2007
1,174
778
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Celtics, AC Milan
Similarities are there no doubt, but it’s a lot different to rebuild when you have a starting 18 instead of a starting 5.

That’s diluted somewhat by the fact we kept a senior core over 3 trade periods diluting it slowly but I think everyone that is a Carlton supporter/member needs to remember after taking the list back to ground zero.
Agree it is a bit harder and that 2
Or 3 players can change a basketball team whereas you need 10 or so real quality players in a footy team. Concept is a similar where drafts and salary caps are involved (I use salary cap loosely in NBA terms)

This article is interesting it mentions the 76ers theory of recognising certain players might make you competitive but lack the ability to make you great- and ripping it back and starting again. Silvagni has clearly done this with us and we are right now at the beginning of phase 2 (the climb) - injuries haven’t helped and I just have a feeling that these extra games we are getting into Dow and obrien types because of it will be a blessing in disguise in a year or two. It’s going to get a bit harder over the next month or so with the draw but we are here now

 

Warsaw

Leviathan
Mar 26, 2008
14,930
7,512
Fight Club
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
76ers, Storm, Broad St.
I saw an interesting comparison with the Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA. Not too disimilar to us. A basket case since Alen Iverson left in the mid 00s. A proud basketball history from the 60s, 70s and 80s but largely irrelevant since then sans a few AI inspired years in the early 00s. Could not attract a free agent to save themselves, literally a nothing irrelevant franchise.

4 or 5 years ago they got an inexperienced coach (Brett brown) they told their supporters they will rebuild the foundation of the club (the only way they could being such an irrelevant and unattractive franchise - through the draft) and they asked everyone players, supporters and all to trust the process. It would be hard, not many wins early while the talent was assembled, learnt and played. The third year of the rebuild they had the worst record of the first three seasons under brown and the worst winning percentage in franchise history just 10 wins in an 82 game season. (Seasons 1 and 2 were 19 wins and 18 wins).

In year 4 as the kids started to mature a bit they won 28 games.

In year 5 (this season) the process has delivered a winning record and the first playoff series win in 7 seasons for the franchise. Not only that they have the best young player in the NBA in Ben Simmons with another two absolute guns in Joel Embiid and Fulltze and a much deeper roster. Many believe the process will now deliver a dynasty to Philadelphia.

Sound familiar??
Trust SOS Bolts and the process, it’s hard but as you can see year 3 is hardest. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
No, don't do this. There is no correlation between the Sixers rebuild and Carlton's rebuild.

The entire premise was based on finding generational players which they did with Embiid and then Simmons, because that's what you need to succeed in the NBA.

The Sixers aren't winning games now because their players matured and developed - only 3 players from the 10 win season are still on the roster, and that was only two seasons ago - but because their top end talent were finally healthy and able to take the court (Year 4 marked the rookie seasons of Embiid and Saric).

This season they were able to add Simmons and supplemented their roster with key role players in specific areas of need by overpaying and sheer circumstance.

There is no blueprint in the AFL for a team having repeat multiple top draft picks - aside from expansion sides and Carlton 05-07 - and succeeding. Sure, we can say 'well not yet', and I'm not even arguing that this isn't the path that we should be taking, but the Sixers strategy worked because the NBA is a superstar driven league and their superstars happened to achieve such status by their rookie years.

There were also misses in the draft too - see Jahlil Okafor - but because just finding one superstar can turn the fortunes of a franchise around, it hasn't put a dent in their trajectory. Consider the implications if Carlton were to whiff badly on a top 3 pick.

If Carlton were to actually follow the Sixers process, it would take 7 or 8 years, not 3, and that's assuming you can actually satisfy player morale and maintain the 'trust' from fans. It's unrealistic.
 

Monkey King

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 31, 2007
24,654
10,076
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
The only measure is premierships in 20 years time no one will know who was second.
I don’t subscribe to dichotomous thinking. If being second best is the same for you as being worst, I’d say you’re in for a life full of disappointment.

It’s been nearly 20 years since Carlton contested a GF and I assure you it’s still remembered by many. Might be worth revisiting the merits of your belief.
 

teknodeejay

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 14, 2004
6,738
8,808
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Dallas Cowboys, Arsenal
Pretty sure I’ve heard all the comparisons now... to Hawthorn multiple times... Geelong.. now the 76ers...
None of which is relevant to the situation at Carlton.
Maybe a Leicester City comparison is the best hope.
 

Mr_Plow

That name again...
May 18, 2008
12,003
35,205
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
76ers & Red Wings
Pretty sure I’ve heard all the comparisons now... to Hawthorn multiple times... Geelong.. now the 76ers...
None of which is relevant to the situation at Carlton.
Maybe a Leicester City comparison is the best hope.
Allow me to suggest Nottingham Forest FC?
 

95bluemember

Club Legend
Nov 2, 2015
1,160
1,172
AFL Club
Carlton
I saw an interesting comparison with the Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA. Not too disimilar to us. A basket case since Alen Iverson left in the mid 00s. A proud basketball history from the 60s, 70s and 80s but largely irrelevant since then sans a few AI inspired years in the early 00s. Could not attract a free agent to save themselves, literally a nothing irrelevant franchise.

4 or 5 years ago they got an inexperienced coach (Brett brown) they told their supporters they will rebuild the foundation of the club (the only way they could being such an irrelevant and unattractive franchise - through the draft) and they asked everyone players, supporters and all to trust the process. It would be hard, not many wins early while the talent was assembled, learnt and played. The third year of the rebuild they had the worst record of the first three seasons under brown and the worst winning percentage in franchise history just 10 wins in an 82 game season. (Seasons 1 and 2 were 19 wins and 18 wins).

In year 4 as the kids started to mature a bit they won 28 games.

In year 5 (this season) the process has delivered a winning record and the first playoff series win in 7 seasons for the franchise. Not only that they have the best young player in the NBA in Ben Simmons with another two absolute guns in Joel Embiid and Fulltze and a much deeper roster. Many believe the process will now deliver a dynasty to Philadelphia.

Sound familiar??
Trust SOS Bolts and the process, it’s hard but as you can see year 3 is hardest. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
Not even close in really, in Basketball you only have 5 guys on the court.
Ben will probably become one of the all time greats like Jordan, that doesn't happen very often.
 

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Moody Blue

Premiership Player
May 21, 2012
3,033
3,155
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
I saw an interesting comparison with the Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA. Not too disimilar to us. A basket case since Alen Iverson left in the mid 00s. A proud basketball history from the 60s, 70s and 80s but largely irrelevant since then sans a few AI inspired years in the early 00s. Could not attract a free agent to save themselves, literally a nothing irrelevant franchise.

4 or 5 years ago they got an inexperienced coach (Brett brown) they told their supporters they will rebuild the foundation of the club (the only way they could being such an irrelevant and unattractive franchise - through the draft) and they asked everyone players, supporters and all to trust the process. It would be hard, not many wins early while the talent was assembled, learnt and played. The third year of the rebuild they had the worst record of the first three seasons under brown and the worst winning percentage in franchise history just 10 wins in an 82 game season. (Seasons 1 and 2 were 19 wins and 18 wins).

In year 4 as the kids started to mature a bit they won 28 games.

In year 5 (this season) the process has delivered a winning record and the first playoff series win in 7 seasons for the franchise. Not only that they have the best young player in the NBA in Ben Simmons with another two absolute guns in Joel Embiid and Fulltze and a much deeper roster. Many believe the process will now deliver a dynasty to Philadelphia.

Sound familiar??
Trust SOS Bolts and the process, it’s hard but as you can see year 3 is hardest. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
Basketball has 6 players? AFL 22 players and is a contact game. Apples & Apples.
 

LouderNowBlue

Senior List
Dec 21, 2010
235
381
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
I saw an interesting comparison with the Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA. Not too disimilar to us. A basket case since Alen Iverson left in the mid 00s. A proud basketball history from the 60s, 70s and 80s but largely irrelevant since then sans a few AI inspired years in the early 00s. Could not attract a free agent to save themselves, literally a nothing irrelevant franchise.

4 or 5 years ago they got an inexperienced coach (Brett brown) they told their supporters they will rebuild the foundation of the club (the only way they could being such an irrelevant and unattractive franchise - through the draft) and they asked everyone players, supporters and all to trust the process. It would be hard, not many wins early while the talent was assembled, learnt and played. The third year of the rebuild they had the worst record of the first three seasons under brown and the worst winning percentage in franchise history just 10 wins in an 82 game season. (Seasons 1 and 2 were 19 wins and 18 wins).

In year 4 as the kids started to mature a bit they won 28 games.

In year 5 (this season) the process has delivered a winning record and the first playoff series win in 7 seasons for the franchise. Not only that they have the best young player in the NBA in Ben Simmons with another two absolute guns in Joel Embiid and Fulltze and a much deeper roster. Many believe the process will now deliver a dynasty to Philadelphia.

Sound familiar??
Trust SOS Bolts and the process, it’s hard but as you can see year 3 is hardest. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
I love your passion but they traded Fultz because he couldn’t shoot after his shoulder injury. Unless things turn around he is looking like a bust of a number 1 pick.

You think people are mad about the stocker trade imagine if we used pick 1 and basically delisted him 2 years later.
 

ItsAllAboutMe

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 22, 2006
5,819
4,853
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Not even close in really, in Basketball you only have 5 guys on the court.
Ben will probably become one of the all time greats like Jordan, that doesn't happen very often.
Yes but you basically only get 1 pick each year, so I’m NBA takes longer and the risk and consequences of stuffing up that draft pick is far greater than in AFL.. if the 76ers pick Tatum instead of Fultz then they probably play the warriors in the finals this year..
 

ItsAllAboutMe

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 22, 2006
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Not even close in really, in Basketball you only have 5 guys on the court.
Ben will probably become one of the all time greats like Jordan, that doesn't happen very often.
Ben would want to learn to shoot before he gets mentioned in the same breath as a Jordan... currently he is just a really good transition basketballer, far from a weapon and the ‘generational’ player everyone was talking about in his rookie year.. Already Doncic has gone past him and Zion looks a beast, these are the players that everyone is excited about.. Ben is a handy player but currently nothing special..
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2006
4,150
3,918
AFL Club
Carlton
Yes but you basically only get 1 pick each year, so I’m NBA takes longer and the risk and consequences of stuffing up that draft pick is far greater than in AFL.. if the 76ers pick Tatum instead of Fultz then they probably play the warriors in the finals this year..
You really only get two in AFL and you still have nearly 4 times as many on the ground.
Getting lucky with one pick (Greek) can turn a club around. You can’t do that in the AFL.
 

Opine

Premium Gold
Aug 30, 2018
2,693
4,657
AFL Club
Carlton
However, it worries me that one or both of them could be lured away by another club or even worse, a new regime gets into power and decides to make changes to the personnel around the club.

It is very easy to quickly fall back to old ways & down the ladder and as we are experiencing now, it takes a long time to turn it all around.
This is a real concern. We've spent 4 years building unity and a culture of belonging necessary for talent to grow. Bolton and SOS have instigated a whole of club program. I hope like hell those in control stick fat and build on whats been created; rather than demolish and start again.
 

Pafloyul

Premiership Player
Oct 6, 2004
3,364
2,184
Somewhere else
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The biggest barrier has always been impatience. First time we've gone the full rebuild and some can't handle it.
If the club didn't think it would just be two years (a fortuitously failed attempt at trading for Tomlison, and a protracted Gibbs trade notwithstanding) of serious drafting and three years of polishing up, we'd have more to show for it
 

Doro

Club Legend
Sep 22, 2011
2,922
4,107
62 West Wallaby St.
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If the club didn't think it would just be two years (a fortuitously failed attempt at trading for Tomlison, and a protracted Gibbs trade notwithstanding) of serious drafting and three years of polishing up, we'd have more to show for it[/QUOTE]

How do you think we'd be better off? We started with an awful list in 2015.
 

TheHeatleyStand

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 28, 2003
6,145
1,203
Iceland
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Ben would want to learn to shoot before he gets mentioned in the same breath as a Jordan... currently he is just a really good transition basketballer, far from a weapon and the ‘generational’ player everyone was talking about in his rookie year.. Already Doncic has gone past him and Zion looks a beast, these are the players that everyone is excited about.. Ben is a handy player but currently nothing special..
Giannis!
 
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