The Brisbane Lions List

[Tairy Greene]

Do you have to derail every thread with you poor attempts at trying to be funny? I mean I'm sorry to snap at you Skoob but seriously I think spotthedog1 has actually raised an interesting topic that is worthwhile discussing and when you make posts like this it leads to other posters replying with their own little jokes and next thing you know the thread is filled with off topic clutter and the actual topic gets drowned out. It is annoying. I am guilty of derailing threads myself I'm sure so once again sorry to snap at you but this is a topic worth talking about in my opinion and an interesting one at that.

I don't think Skoob meant any harm lionshine, just continuing on the joke Haso started as Fatcat08 mentioned above. I do wonder what really constitutes a derailment though, I believe Elixuh, or possibly dlanod, mentioned in one thread that as long as too many people aren't complaining then it's ok. I would like to hear TheBrownDog's thoughts on this subject considering him being somewhat of a legend around these parts. Hmm, on second thoughts I may just start a new thread about this very topic.

 

[theteamtobeat]

The problem is guys like Andrews, McStay, Keays, Schache, Paparone, Dawson, Hipwood, Freeman, Mathieson and Evans aren't AFL ready. By this I mean their bodies aren't ready to perform on a consistent basis for 22 rounds. They are all talented players, but all these kids should be our depth or fringe players in our best 22.

The major problem with our list is that our A grade mature players have been either injured or are carrying some sort of injury. Our second tier of senior players like Bewick, Lester, Bell, Merrett, Paine and Bastinac are ranked C graders at best. This is where the problem is.

We have to be more aggressive in terms of our money ball approach and bring in 3 or 4 players every year, that we can get cheap and are AFL ready. Whether we get them through FA, PSD, Rookie draft, or trade, our depth is a major problem. The fact that we have to deal with BS six day breaks and travel, while a club like the Doggies gets to play it's first 9 games at their home ground before they travel is another vital reason we need to target more mature players that meet our needs, while we develop our young players in the GYM. We need at least a squad of 30 players that are AFL ready.

For example CEY, Ricky Henderson, Tim Mohr, Mason Wood, Brendan Ah Chee, Nic Newman and Courtney Dempsey are some examples of the type of players we should target.

 

[Fatcat08]

The problem is guys like Andrews, McStay, Keays, Schache, Paparone, Dawson, Hipwood, Freeman, Mathieson and Evans aren't AFL ready. By this I mean their bodies aren't ready to perform on a consistent basis for 22 rounds. They are all talented players, but all these kids should be our depth or fringe players in our best 22.

The major problem with our list is that our A grade mature players have been either injured or are carrying some sort of injury. Our second tier of senior players like Bewick, Lester, Bell, Merrett, Paine and Bastinac are ranked C graders at best. This is where the problem is.

We have to be more aggressive in terms of our money ball approach and bring in 3 or 4 players every year, that we can get cheap and are AFL ready. Whether we get them through FA, PSD, Rookie draft, or trade, our depth is a major problem. The fact that we have to deal with BS six day breaks and travel, while a club like the Doggies gets to play it's first 9 games at their home ground before they travel is another vital reason we need to target more mature players that meet our needs, while we develop our young players in the GYM. We need at least a squad of 30 players that are AFL ready.

For example CEY, Ricky Henderson, Tim Mohr, Mason Wood, Brendan Ah Chee, Nic Newman and Courtney Dempsey are some examples of the type of players we should target.

Worth noting that Newman, Ah Chee and Wood are all the same age as Paparone.

 

[kylegee28]

Carlton :
Top 5 - Walker, Murphy, Thomas, Gibbs, Kreuzer, Plowman, Weitering (28 pts)
Top 10 - Gorringe, Sumner, McKay (6 pts)
Other R1 - Everitt, Lamb, Docherty, Kerridge, Jaksch, Cripps, Boekhorst, Curnow, Cuningham (9 pts)

CAR - 16 first rounders, 7 top ten, 4 top five

I'm very confused now I thought we were talking about the Blues? Anyway you are being pedantic indeed The point of this was just to show in stark contrast the lack of quality young talent on our list compared to the other clubs. That is why spotthedog1 came up with a quick and simple scoring method. It doesn't really matter if a few points are off the mark does it?

Apologies for derailing the thread. I've finally lost my mind

 

[spotthedog1]

The problem is guys like Andrews, McStay, Keays, Schache, Paparone, Dawson, Hipwood, Freeman, Mathieson and Evans aren't AFL ready. By this I mean their bodies aren't ready to perform on a consistent basis for 22 rounds. They are all talented players, but all these kids should be our depth or fringe players in our best 22.

The major problem with our list is that our A grade mature players have been either injured or are carrying some sort of injury. Our second tier of senior players like Bewick, Lester, Bell, Merrett, Paine and Bastinac are ranked C graders at best. This is where the problem is.

We have to be more aggressive in terms of our money ball approach and bring in 3 or 4 players every year, that we can get cheap and are AFL ready. Whether we get them through FA, PSD, Rookie draft, or trade, our depth is a major problem. The fact that we have to deal with BS six day breaks and travel, while a club like the Doggies gets to play it's first 9 games at their home ground before they travel is another vital reason we need to target more mature players that meet our needs, while we develop our young players in the GYM. We need at least a squad of 30 players that are AFL ready.

For example CEY, Ricky Henderson, Tim Mohr, Mason Wood, Brendan Ah Chee, Nic Newman and Courtney Dempsey are some examples of the type of players we should target.

I disagree. I don't think we have enough A-graders. I would consider our A-graders Rockliff and Beams, with Zorko likely joining that list if he keeps up this year's form. True, Rocky and Beams haven't been on the field a lot, but that's 2-3, tops. You look at a team like Sydney, I would conservatively give them 10 A-graders. And that's ignoring the 3 or 4 who have recently retired.

We can keep shooting at B-graders like Bell and Basti, paying overs for them because it's something we can advertise to the fans, but unless we get A-graders in there, we're not going to do much. Every player you named as a target I would say would either be too expensive, and prefer to take my shot at the draft pool, or not likely to make the grade.

And you have listed Andrews and Schache as "future depth players". I think most people on this board would suggest that they both have the capacity to be All-Australian level players in the future.

 

[spotthedog1]

Apologies for derailing the thread. I've finally lost my mind

OK, so that's my bad. This is what happens when i hand-write my stats from my spreadsheet into another screen.

Yes, Carlton are 19, 10, 7. The "16, 7, 4" numbers came from the next set of stats down... I did the same stats for the last 10 years, to try to take out those who are over-the-hill...



My bad!

Seriously though - shows how well Sydney have done.

 

[jackess]

I'd go with

A graders: Rockliff, Beams, Martin (on last years form), Hanley (2014 form) and Zorko
B graders: Robinson, Christensen and Rich
C graders: Harwood, Bastinac, Green, Bell, Bewick, Merrett, Paparone, McStay, Cutler, Gardiner, Taylor, Andrews and Mayes
D graders: West, Walker, C Beams, Robertson, Schache, Dawson and Lester

 

[GumbyRules1]

OK, now I love me a bit of stats, so here we go.

My big complaint with the AFL is that we aren't given the tools to succeed. That's money, facilities, etc. This causes retention issues (though isn't the only cause), and this leads to us having a list that is actually incapable of challenging. Sadly, I genuinely believe that single-handedly, the GH5 eliminated us from premiership contention for a full decade. Coupled with the GC and GWS removing us from early draft picks, and we have been condemned from "no shot at a premiership" to "no shot at finals".

So - list analysis. It's pretty difficult to challenge without good talent on your list. So let's do an analysis of first rounders, which (for me is our biggest on-field problem. This is a bit simplistic, sure, as not all great players come from the first round, and not all first rounders are guns, but it is (to me) the most reasonable and measurable method to measure list talent.

Here is an analysis of the competitions currently listed players who were drafted in the first round:

ADE - 10 first rounders, 0 top ten, 0 top five
BL - 5 first rounders, 3 top ten, 1 top five
CAR - 16 first rounders, 7 top ten, 4 top five
COL - 12 first rounders, 7 top ten, 2 top five
ESS - 14 first rounders, 8 top ten, 5 top five
FRE - 7 first rounders, 4 top ten, 4 top five
GC - 14 first rounders, 7 top ten, 4 top five
GEE - 14 first rounders, 8 top ten, 0 top five
GWS - 22 first rounders, 16 top ten, 9 top five
HAW - 13 first rounders, 5 top ten, 3 top five
MEL - 13 first rounders, 9 top ten, 6 top five
NM - 14 first rounders, 5 top ten, 2 top five
PA - 13 first rounders, 8 top ten, 4 top five
RIC - 15 first rounders, 7 top ten, 3 top five
STK - 10 first rounders, 5 top 10, 3 top five
SYD - 7 first rounders, 3 top ten, 2 top five
WB- 8 first rounders, 4 top ten, 3 top five
WC - 16 first rounders, 6 top ten, 5 top five

Let's try to turn this into a scoreboard. Non-top 10 1st rd = 1 pt, top 10 = 2 pt, top 5 = 4 pt

GWS - 56 pts
CAR - 43 pts (draft sanctioned)
MEL - 34 pts (staff found guilty but club not draft sanctioned)
WC - 32 pts
=ESS - 32 pts (draft sanctioned)
GC - 29 pts
=PA - 29 pts
RIC - 28 pts
HAW - 24 pts
COL - 23 pts
=NM - 23 pts
GEE - 22 pts
STK - 21 pts
FRE - 19 pts
WB - 18 pts
SYD - 14 pts
ADE - 10 pts (draft sanctioned)
=BL - 10 pts

Points to note:
- Sydney have done very well to be in such strong contention despite a dearth of high draft picks
- Essendon currently have extra players on their list, skewing the results (eg. James Kelly is a top up, and a top draft pick). If we look at the last 10 drafts ONLY, Essendon still have 9 first rounders, 6 top ten, 3 top five.
- Cheating may get you draft sanctions, but has been a successful way to accrue talent. That said, it hasn't resulted in premierships for any cheating team in the current list management window.
- Other teams near the bottom of the draft pick ladder are all recent or current contenders (Sydney, WB, Freo, St Kilda, Geelong, North, Collingwood, Hawthorn).
- Ignoring Adelaide, who have copped draft sanctions in the current list management window (and therefore don't get sympathy), Brisbane are the clear bottom of the ladder, despite spending most of the last decade at the bottom of the ladder.

This is why I don't like it when Swanny comes out and says "no, we don't want a priority pick". Of course we need a priority pick. We simply don't have the talent to actually compete.

OK, now I love me a bit of stats, so here we go.

My big complaint with the AFL is that we aren't given the tools to succeed. That's money, facilities, etc. This causes retention issues (though isn't the only cause), and this leads to us having a list that is actually incapable of challenging. Sadly, I genuinely believe that single-handedly, the GH5 eliminated us from premiership contention for a full decade. Coupled with the GC and GWS removing us from early draft picks, and we have been condemned from "no shot at a premiership" to "no shot at finals".

So - list analysis. It's pretty difficult to challenge without good talent on your list. So let's do an analysis of first rounders, which (for me is our biggest on-field problem. This is a bit simplistic, sure, as not all great players come from the first round, and not all first rounders are guns, but it is (to me) the most reasonable and measurable method to measure list talent.

Here is an analysis of the competitions currently listed players who were drafted in the first round:

ADE - 10 first rounders, 0 top ten, 0 top five
BL - 5 first rounders, 3 top ten, 1 top five
CAR - 16 first rounders, 7 top ten, 4 top five
COL - 12 first rounders, 7 top ten, 2 top five
ESS - 14 first rounders, 8 top ten, 5 top five
FRE - 7 first rounders, 4 top ten, 4 top five
GC - 14 first rounders, 7 top ten, 4 top five
GEE - 14 first rounders, 8 top ten, 0 top five
GWS - 22 first rounders, 16 top ten, 9 top five
HAW - 13 first rounders, 5 top ten, 3 top five
MEL - 13 first rounders, 9 top ten, 6 top five
NM - 14 first rounders, 5 top ten, 2 top five
PA - 13 first rounders, 8 top ten, 4 top five
RIC - 15 first rounders, 7 top ten, 3 top five
STK - 10 first rounders, 5 top 10, 3 top five
SYD - 7 first rounders, 3 top ten, 2 top five
WB- 8 first rounders, 4 top ten, 3 top five
WC - 16 first rounders, 6 top ten, 5 top five

Let's try to turn this into a scoreboard. Non-top 10 1st rd = 1 pt, top 10 = 2 pt, top 5 = 4 pt

GWS - 56 pts
CAR - 43 pts (draft sanctioned)
MEL - 34 pts (staff found guilty but club not draft sanctioned)
WC - 32 pts
=ESS - 32 pts (draft sanctioned)
GC - 29 pts
=PA - 29 pts
RIC - 28 pts
HAW - 24 pts
COL - 23 pts
=NM - 23 pts
GEE - 22 pts
STK - 21 pts
FRE - 19 pts
WB - 18 pts
SYD - 14 pts
ADE - 10 pts (draft sanctioned)
=BL - 10 pts

Points to note:
- Sydney have done very well to be in such strong contention despite a dearth of high draft picks
- Essendon currently have extra players on their list, skewing the results (eg. James Kelly is a top up, and a top draft pick). If we look at the last 10 drafts ONLY, Essendon still have 9 first rounders, 6 top ten, 3 top five.
- Cheating may get you draft sanctions, but has been a successful way to accrue talent. That said, it hasn't resulted in premierships for any cheating team in the current list management window.
- Other teams near the bottom of the draft pick ladder are all recent or current contenders (Sydney, WB, Freo, St Kilda, Geelong, North, Collingwood, Hawthorn).
- Ignoring Adelaide, who have copped draft sanctions in the current list management window (and therefore don't get sympathy), Brisbane are the clear bottom of the ladder, despite spending most of the last decade at the bottom of the ladder.

This is why I don't like it when Swanny comes out and says "no, we don't want a priority pick". Of course we need a priority pick. We simply don't have the talent to actually compete.

I dont think the figures are right I thought we have 4. WB 4 +4 dont equal 7? The only reason I say that is I posted it on main and only noted it after..

 

[JasRulz63]

I dont think the figures are right I thought we have 4. WB 4 +4 dont equal 7? The only reason I say that is I posted it on main and only noted it after..

Paparone is technically a first rounder in those GC/GWS impacted drafts where the first round went to the mid 20s.

 

[Sherrinator]

I'd go with

A graders: Rockliff, Beams, Martin (on last years form), Hanley (2014 form) and Zorko
B graders: Robinson, Christensen and Rich
C graders: Harwood, Bastinac, Green, Bell, Bewick, Merrett, Paparone, McStay, Cutler, Gardiner, Taylor, Andrews and Mayes
D graders: West, Walker, C Beams, Robertson, Schache, Dawson and Lester

Based on the last 2 years, we have had no players that are A-grade consistent.

 

[jackess]

Based on the last 2 years, we have had no players that are A-grade consistent.

I'd definitely go with Rocky and Beams when fit.

 

[spotthedog1]

I dont think the figures are right I thought we have 4. WB 4 +4 dont equal 7? The only reason I say that is I posted it on main and only noted it after..

If you put it on the main board, hope you updated Carlton's figures.

Bulldogs have 3 top 5 (Stringer, Boyd, Bont), 1 other top 10 (Macrae), and 4 other first rounders (Murphy, Wallace, Smith, Hrovat). That's 8.

Paparone is technically a first rounder in those GC/GWS impacted drafts where the first round went to the mid 20s.

Agreed. Paparone is in my figures. Where something is an "End of First Round pick", I said it was a first round pick (the end of a book is part of a book, so the end of the round is part of the round).

Lions were:
Top 5 - Schache
Top 10 - Mayes Rich
First rd - Hipwood Paparone

 

[theteamtobeat]

I disagree. I don't think we have enough A-graders. I would consider our A-graders Rockliff and Beams, with Zorko likely joining that list if he keeps up this year's form. True, Rocky and Beams haven't been on the field a lot, but that's 2-3, tops. You look at a team like Sydney, I would conservatively give them 10 A-graders. And that's ignoring the 3 or 4 who have recently retired.

We can keep shooting at B-graders like Bell and Basti, paying overs for them because it's something we can advertise to the fans, but unless we get A-graders in there, we're not going to do much. Every player you named as a target I would say would either be too expensive, and prefer to take my shot at the draft pool, or not likely to make the grade.

And you have listed Andrews and Schache as "future depth players". I think most people on this board would suggest that they both have the capacity to be All-Australian level players in the future.

Tell me where I said Andrews and Schache are "future depth players". Lol, if you are going to quote me, at least get the quote right and not make it up.

 

[POBT]

POBT used to do his yearly ratings list. Not sure if he done one this year but if he did it is a good read from his personal opinion.

Didn't finish it this year. Losing a top 5 player (my rating) to a career ending injury killed the buzz.

Top 5 was Martin, Hanley, Beams, Rockliff and Clarke. Reckon the availability/form of that group says volumes about our season.

 

[M Malice]

Didn't finish it this year. Losing a top 5 player (my rating) to a career ending injury killed the buzz.

Top 5 was Martin, Hanley, Beams, Rockliff and Clarke. Reckon the availability/form of that group says volumes about our season.

then you add to those 5- rich, been inconsistent at best. merrett, been poor. bastinac and bell have not been as good as was speculated. makes it hard when the majority of our experienced players have been well below their best.

 

[briztoon]

I'd go with

A graders: Rockliff, Beams, Martin (on last years form), Hanley (2014 form) and Zorko
B graders: Robinson, Christensen and Rich
C graders: Harwood, Bastinac, Green, Bell, Bewick, Merrett, Paparone, McStay, Cutler, Gardiner, Taylor, Andrews and Mayes
D graders: West, Walker, C Beams, Robertson, Schache, Dawson and Lester

I see this post, and the poll result where 34% of respondents believe our list is good but underperforming, as part of an over all problem with many of the contributors on the Lions forum. Either over rating our own players, or living in the past on the past performances or glories of our players.

If last years form doesn't carry in to this year, then it's worthless and doesn't gain us anything this season. Most certainly form from 2014 counts for zilch in 2016.

Players age, players succumb to injury, sometimes it's just that players can't perform year after year at their absolute maximum, but form is temporary for all players. For some, they reach a high peak early in their career and play for decade at the very top of the game, for others they might be a one year wonder.

This season, their has been no consistent A grade performer in our team. Zorko is probably the closest.

 

[briztoon]

I disagree. I don't think we have enough A-graders. I would consider our A-graders Rockliff and Beams, with Zorko likely joining that list if he keeps up this year's form. True, Rocky and Beams haven't been on the field a lot, but that's 2-3, tops. You look at a team like Sydney, I would conservatively give them 10 A-graders. And that's ignoring the 3 or 4 who have recently retired.

We can keep shooting at B-graders like Bell and Basti, paying overs for them because it's something we can advertise to the fans, but unless we get A-graders in there, we're not going to do much. Every player you named as a target I would say would either be too expensive, and prefer to take my shot at the draft pool, or not likely to make the grade.

And you have listed Andrews and Schache as "future depth players". I think most people on this board would suggest that they both have the capacity to be All-Australian level players in the future.

I reckon I'll be blue in the face before it sinks in with some people, the Lions will rarely attract A grade talent. Certainly not enough to change our fortunes around fast enough to make us relevant with in the next three seasons.

Like you, I believe we need to develop a team through the draft and grow our own. Yes, retention will be an issue until we can compete at a high enough level where they want to stay because they can see a championship is possible.

 

[Roylion]

I'd go with

A graders: Rockliff, Beams, Martin (on last years form), Hanley (2014 form) and Zorko
B graders: Robinson, Christensen and Rich

All midfielders. And I count Martin as someone who plays in the midfield.

C graders: Harwood, Bastinac, Green, Bell, Bewick, Merrett, Paparone, McStay, Cutler, Gardiner, Taylor, Andrews and Mayes

Merrett, Paparone, Gardiner McStay and Andrews are key defenders. One 31 year old. All others 21 or under.

D graders: West, Walker, C Beams, Robertson, Schache, Dawson and Lester

Two key forwards. One 23 year old and a 19 year old. I'd imagine Freeman would be a D Grade.

To me the deficiencies in the list are obvious.

 

[Bucking Beads]

I believe we are suffering from some kind of curse when it comes to our rebuild. Even when we trade in a gun talent it seems that his knee is buggered. Then we move on to Hanley who had an amazing season in 2014 and then he stuffed his hip. He is a shadow of the player he was. Chuck in Justin Clarke who has had to retire due to concussion and it really hurts. Even when we unearth what looks like a really nice player like Jayden McGrath it looks like he might be cooked too. So much bad luck with injuries on top of all the bad mistakes the club has made.

 

[maroon and blue]

When I rang up to renew 5 memberships in Jan I was surprised to speak to Hanley, he asked me how I felt about the upcoming season, and I honestly replied I expected nothing, that I support the Lions every year no matter what and as a realist and as an old Royboy I did for love of the club , and didn't think we were going to do much this year. Felt bad about it afterwards , but it was the truth.

 

[spotthedog1]

Find it interesting that so many thought Martin had a good year last year. I thought he had a great 2014, but a fairly weak 2015, with 2016 continuing a downward trend. Last year he got around the field well, but after a mark, I cringed at his disposal. Will handball off the mark if there is a player running forward without looking to see if they're being closely checked. The number of turnovers from a Martin mark last year was horrible. This year, he hasn't improved his disposal, but he's lost his ability to get open in the corridor, so he's not getting as many marks.

Funny thing is, I reckon most people would agree that this year, it's been Zorko - daylight - Robbo - daylight - everyone else. But no one talks about Robbo being an a-grader. Including myself. Maybe it's because we paid nothing for him - psychologically reduces his value. But he's consistent, he plays his role, and I had him as our best player against Freo by a considerable margin. I wonder if we ought to start talking about Robbo as an a-grader.

 

[maroon and blue]

Find it interesting that so many thought Martin had a good year last year. I thought he had a great 2014, but a fairly weak 2015, with 2016 continuing a downward trend. Last year he got around the field well, but after a mark, I cringed at his disposal. Will handball off the mark if there is a player running forward without looking to see if they're being closely checked. The number of turnovers from a Martin mark last year was horrible. This year, he hasn't improved his disposal, but he's lost his ability to get open in the corridor, so he's not getting as many marks.

Funny thing is, I reckon most people would agree that this year, it's been Zorko - daylight - Robbo - daylight - everyone else. But no one talks about Robbo being an a-grader. Including myself. Maybe it's because we paid nothing for him - psychologically reduces his value. But he's consistent, he plays his role, and I had him as our best player against Freo by a considerable margin. I wonder if we ought to start talking about Robbo as an a-grader.

To me he is captain material. he has personality. Robbo that is.

 

[theteamtobeat]

Find it interesting that so many thought Martin had a good year last year. I thought he had a great 2014, but a fairly weak 2015, with 2016 continuing a downward trend. Last year he got around the field well, but after a mark, I cringed at his disposal. Will handball off the mark if there is a player running forward without looking to see if they're being closely checked. The number of turnovers from a Martin mark last year was horrible. This year, he hasn't improved his disposal, but he's lost his ability to get open in the corridor, so he's not getting as many marks.

Funny thing is, I reckon most people would agree that this year, it's been Zorko - daylight - Robbo - daylight - everyone else. But no one talks about Robbo being an a-grader. Including myself. Maybe it's because we paid nothing for him - psychologically reduces his value. But he's consistent, he plays his role, and I had him as our best player against Freo by a considerable margin. I wonder if we ought to start talking about Robbo as an a-grader.

I love Robbo, but there is no way in hell he's a A grader. Very solid B grader at best. He bombs the ball every time we go inside 50 and can't hit a bloody target by foot on a consistent basis.

 

[maroon and blue]

I love Robbo, but there is no way in hell he's a A grader. Very solid B grader at best. He bombs the ball every time we go inside 50 and can't hit a bloody target by foot on a consistent basis.

sometimes its not about skill by foot but how big your heart is and Robbo has it in spades. He shut down the Freo whoever by sheer guts. surely that counts for something even in todays bruise free football.

 

[jackess]

sometimes its not about skill by foot but how big your heart is and Robbo has it in spades. He shut down the Freo whoever by sheer guts. surely that counts for something even in todays bruise free football.

It's not everything, but to me he seems like quite a polarising character. Not saying Rocky is but I don't think Robbo would be best suited to brining the playing group together.