The Brisbane Lions List

[kylegee28]

With all the talk of coaching, our players have rightfully or wrongfully, been avoiding some of discussion and criticism. So what's everyone's thoughts on the state of our list?

In my opinions, our list isn't in too bad a shape. Definitely lacking depth, but I really do believe that we are playing well below our ability. I don't think any of our players are below AFL standard as has been suggested, and I think our top players are very high quality.

 

[davemc_lions]

At the moment below.
We have some real good talent which are either not trying or injured.
Hanley, Rich, Martin, Merrett, Bell, Bastinac and West been around for a while and at peaks most would get into other sides.
Then our 2-3 year players Mayes, Taylor, Harwood, N Robinson, and I add C Beams, Papparone and Green in this list not really happening.

Not like we missing a lot of players D Beams and now Christenson.

 

[3KZ is Football]

At the moment below.
We have some real good talent which are either not trying or injured.
Hanley, Rich, Martin, Merrett, Bell, Bastinac and West been around for a while and at peaks most would get into other sides.
Then our 2-3 year players Mayes, Taylor, Harwood, N Robinson, and I add C Beams, Papparone and Green in this list not really happening.

Not like we missing a lot of players D Beams and now Christenson.

Merrett would not get a game at any other AFL club. He would be lucky to make the Reserves in a number of them. He is cooked and he has been for quite some time.

 

[Milk Steak]

At the moment below.
We have some real good talent which are either not trying or injured.
Hanley, Rich, Martin, Merrett, Bell, Bastinac and West been around for a while and at peaks most would get into other sides.
Then our 2-3 year players Mayes, Taylor, Harwood, N Robinson, and I add C Beams, Papparone and Green in this list not really happening.

Not like we missing a lot of players D Beams and now Christenson.

Not sure what you consider good talent,but West,Bastinac,Bell and Merrett would struggle to make any other sides best 22. Correction,Merrett wouldn't make any other sides list. Rich has been a myth since his 2nd season. 1 good game out of every 7 does not a good player make.

 

[James North]

Merrett would not get a game at any other AFL club. He would be lucky to make the Reserves in a number of them. He is cooked and he has been for quite some time.

Are you Dylan12 lite, or is Dylan12 3KZ lite?

 

[Big Lion]

We have enough talent to be better placed than what we are, we certainly could do with an experienced defender and another midfield gun preferably with a bit of pace. Coaching is abysmal, enough said.

 

[wattoxi]

Rich gets to much hate on here, if you think of him as the player he is right now and not the player he had the potential to become he is still a very solid damaging player. He could of been much better but isn't so accept it and see that he isn't as bad as people make out.

 

[Jivlain]

Rich gets to much hate on here, if you think of him as the player he is right now and not the player he had the potential to become he is still a very solid damaging player. He could of been much better but isn't so accept it and see that he isn't as bad as people make out.

There's a reason he always attracts the tagger. Opposition coaches know what's up.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Are you Dylan12 lite, or is Dylan12 3KZ lite?

Just able to see the light James.

 

[Milux]

Merrett would not get a game at any other AFL club. He would be lucky to make the Reserves in a number of them. He is cooked and he has been for quite some time.

Dont agree with you often but you're right here. Its exactly the reason we fast tracked j clarkes development. Now with clarkes retirement (i hope he is better) we are left up s**t creek with out that paddling thing.

 

[dlanod]

With all the talk of coaching, our players have rightfully or wrongfully, been avoiding some of discussion and criticism. So what's everyone's thoughts on the state of our list?

In my opinions, our list isn't in too bad a shape. Definitely lacking depth, but I really do believe that we are playing well below our ability. I don't think any of our players are below AFL standard as has been suggested, and I think our top players are very high quality.

I think we're hampered in the middle (Beams out, Hanley restricted, Rich is the cream, not the cake), but beyond that we end up very shallow with effort the best thing that can be said about most of the rest.
I think we're young down back (Andrews, Gardiner, McStay) and up forward we're either young (Schache, Freeman, Walker) or not a forward (West, Martin).

Because of our desperation to reset our talls which were abyssmal recently, we've now ended up with the opposite problem - our midfield has no options to come in once we're missing a couple.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

There's a reason he always attracts the tagger. Opposition coaches know what's up.

On this point, we don't do enough as a team to help him with the tag either. It's fraustrating having such a damaging player, restricted so easy and so often.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

I watched the Dogies Port match yesterday before the Lions match and really enjoyed myself. After our game I attempted to watch the West Coast and Adelaide or Geelong v North matches but could not enjoy them at all. Brisbane are such a depressing team to support at the moment.

I went to bed and a thought came to me that typifies our season. I did not look at the Lion's team before the bounce and just before quarter time I wondered if Lester was playing. Now Lester has never played three good games in a row in his entire career, and even when he is a contributor, he often goes a quarter without getting a kick. He typifies the list that we have.

Rocky and Handley have their better times behind them. Harris Andrews, our great white hope, was comprehensively towelled up yesterday. None of the current list would get a game in 2002 and nearly all would struggle to even get on the list. Keeping players, our current obsession, is only a plus if they are any good.

How can anyone say we have a promising list when the seconds get thrashed every week?

Would any of the players who will play in the seconds today get a game for Box Hill?

The only up side is that I am going overseas for a month and I now won't be getting the AFL apt. Why ruin my holiday?

 

[Bucking Beads]

I really don't know anymore. Is it talent? Is it coaching? Is it mental? I really don't know.

 

[royboys4eva]

We have talent on the list - every club has talent - it's a case of building that talent with good structures on and off the field - developing the talent with a good coaching department. Every player on the list should know their role within the team. Every player on the list should have to earn a game every week not be handed games. Every person within the club should have a desire to achieve the ultimate goals put in place by the coach. It's a process everyday of every week of every month.

I think the Dogs and the Blues in recent times have shown when you get the above in order - performances improve dramatically regardless of your list.

Right now you would say the coaching department and players are not even on the same page. The facilities off the field also need to be fixed ASAP.

 

[Slax]

I don't feel anyone on the list is performing at 100%.

Defence - missing Clarke massively, don't underestimate his lose as he was our number one defender and now that role goes to Merrett who is partially being exposed but also getting no help. McStay looks like he good make an elite defender but not sure about anyone else, getting no run out of the backline from Rich, Mayes isn't even up to getting poached now and most are overpaid.

Midfield - totally disconsolate, Rockliff is not doing any damage when he gets the ball and looks dejected. Hanley's skills have gone backs and no longer breaking lines. Zorko is trying but not getting much help, but often just bombing it forward in hope. Martin is having a stinker and not sure that the combination of him and West is working. Robinson is what he is, skills aren't always brilliant but gives 100%. Taylor doesn't care

Forwards - the structure is a mess. Not sure he is trying to achieve here but bombing it in there isn't helping. West is not a forward nor is Martin. There is talent but when the forwards are all across the centre when the ball is coming out it there isn't anything to go to. Green is MIA and Zorko not spending as much time forward so smalls aren't doing much either.

The run, is a jog. The mids aren't getting back fast enough to defend and when we get it not spreading up the field.

The players just don't look interested.

 

[Dylan12]

I am probably talking out of school here, given it is only a hunch, but I think part of our problem / culture issue, aside from the coach, could actually be the likes of Rockliff, Hanley, Zorko, Merrett and Green to name a few.

Those three in particular just come across as total campaigners and pretty full of themselves and from the outside looking in, I could see why the playing group looks fractured, regardless of what they're saying.

Purely my own thoughts, but as has been intimated recently, there is a cancer at the club, and it can't just be the coach.

It is at the stage now where I am not adverse to really moving guys on, such as those named, and just start again, with a new playing list and coaching department.

 

[James North]

Lethal's 10c:

"But there are a lot of things that are really not right about the Lions' operation - things that make (them) a good footy team.

"So we have to work on getting them done and then make sure the coach has the right resources to work with.

"No coach can coach well if you have poor resources, a poor playing group."

(ignore 'defence of Leppa' - just posting here about list quality)

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-06-12/dimma-lethal-quick-to-defend-undersiege-leppitsch

 

[lions27]

We have the cattle we just don't have the drovers.
Time for Lethal to pull the trigger.

 

[James North]

We have the cattle we just don't have the drovers.
Time for Lethal to pull the trigger.

So he should disagree with himself?

 

[lions27]

So he should disagree with himself?

I think his and Swannies hand will be forced in the coming months.

 

[John_Proctor]

Looking for a dogs/blues style turnaround and you'll sadly find the lists are actually in a different class. No doubt if we can get our first choice midfield on the park and performing well we are better than the rubbissh we are serving at the moment but still not much more than 10th-14th potential given our non existant back and forward lines (save for a bunch of 18-20 yo's with some potential - see more below).

Dogs, Stringer is a pick 5, McRae pick 6, libba ,hunter, Wallis pre points system bargain father sons who would've been first rounders, Bont. Not being cruel but reality is our boys are all pick 20+ for a reason. Would anyone take rising star Taylor over Bont? Nick Robbo over Wallis? Mcstay over stringer?

The reality is our lost generation is biting us twice. Firstly we are playing a very young team instead of one with docherty, yeo, Polec, longer (over west), hell even aish would be getting a run on these performances. Secondly instead of having picks 5,8,12 running around and growing into their 'first round talent' we have picks 25,27,28 (from being over a barrel at the trade table) peaking at that level (obviously there are outliers but stats generally support correlation between draft position and talent).

At least from last draft we have schache and hipwood now on the list.

On draft night people were happy Keays fell to 24 because we got him 'cheap'. Sorry it shows that other clubs didn't rate him and we've still gotten that second tier talent into our system. I'd have rather paid more and had him bid at pick 15, clearly a higher rated player. Him and Mathieson might develop really nicely but most likely outcome is they get good enough to be depth players at a top club. Fingers crossed that's us but I don't see us being a top clubs for a long time it at the moment.

Meanwhile in terms of dogs rise up the ladder don't forget the Bulldogs still have experienced talent equivalent to ours (rich, Rockliff,beams, Zorko, Hanley, Merritt, Robinson = Murphey, M Boyd, Morris, Dahlhaus, wood, Morris, picken and last year Crameri this year suckling.

Similarly someone pointed out Carltons list has major first round talent in kreuzer, Gibbs, Murphey, Thomas, Cripps. Walker, weitering, docherty, Everett, plowman as 'first round talent'

When does our window open? we are probably reliant on last years and this years draft to provide the elite level talent that drives clubs to the top. Normally need about 60-100 games to be a finals bound team. So that's 4+ seasons of being average and fighting for relevance and to keep other players around long enough to see the success. Just in time for Rockliff, beams, Hanley, Zorko, rich to retire!

 

[jjami15]

When does our window open? we are probably reliant on last years and this years draft to provide the elite level talent that drives clubs to the top. Normally need about 60-100 games to be a finals bound team. So that's 4+ seasons of being average and fighting for relevance and to keep other players around long enough to see the success. Just in time for Rockliff, beams, Hanley, Zorko, rich to retire!

The point that you have made here about our senior core of players and time it will take for us just to be competitive again is the reason behind why last week I made the notion of trading Zorko. I knew it would create waves and upset some (all) and that's fine. With the results stacking up for this season and the blow torch to be applied maybe the club will wake up to it's self and see where we truly are. All I'm hearing are excuses on every level and even though they are factual there has to come a point to be looking like to actually doing something about it. I believe the club is with the Lamberts, new training/admin facilities hopefully locked in, another development coach (that's actually a head scratcher and you would have assumed would have been done earlier with the youngest squad in the comp). The only way that I can see massive changes to our list is for a new coach/list manager to come in. I'm not going to take shots at the younger crew but the senior core are absolutely in the firing line. There is something wrong there I believe and have commented before about the players wielding too much power and sadly for those younger guys coming they have been sold the 'excuses' line over and over again. I would look to trade out almost everyone of the senior core in two years only for draft picks or young talented players, senior players are needed and would attack F/A's and DFA's but only from those from seuccesful clubs and cultures to sell that and coach that to the younger players. It will be that young core that we have and will have that takes us forward and it is their mind sets that need to be changed. To add I would make Robbo captain, the only bloke who puts in every minute of every game.

 

[royboys4eva]

Looking for a dogs/blues style turnaround and you'll sadly find the lists are actually in a different class. No doubt if we can get our first choice midfield on the park and performing well we are better than the rubbissh we are serving at the moment but still not much more than 10th-14th potential given our non existant back and forward lines (save for a bunch of 18-20 yo's with some potential - see more below).

Dogs, Stringer is a pick 5, McRae pick 6, libba ,hunter, Wallis pre points system bargain father sons who would've been first rounders, Bont. Not being cruel but reality is our boys are all pick 20+ for a reason. Would anyone take rising star Taylor over Bont? Nick Robbo over Wallis? Mcstay over stringer?

The reality is our lost generation is biting us twice. Firstly we are playing a very young team instead of one with docherty, yeo, Polec, longer (over west), hell even aish would be getting a run on these performances. Secondly instead of having picks 5,8,12 running around and growing into their 'first round talent' we have picks 25,27,28 (from being over a barrel at the trade table) peaking at that level (obviously there are outliers but stats generally support correlation between draft position and talent).

At least from last draft we have schache and hipwood now on the list.

On draft night people were happy Keays fell to 24 because we got him 'cheap'. Sorry it shows that other clubs didn't rate him and we've still gotten that second tier talent into our system. I'd have rather paid more and had him bid at pick 15, clearly a higher rated player. Him and Mathieson might develop really nicely but most likely outcome is they get good enough to be depth players at a top club. Fingers crossed that's us but I don't see us being a top clubs for a long time it at the moment.

Meanwhile in terms of dogs rise up the ladder don't forget the Bulldogs still have experienced talent equivalent to ours (rich, Rockliff,beams, Zorko, Hanley, Merritt, Robinson = Murphey, M Boyd, Morris, Dahlhaus, wood, Morris, picken and last year Crameri this year suckling.

Similarly someone pointed out Carltons list has major first round talent in kreuzer, Gibbs, Murphey, Thomas, Cripps. Walker, weitering, docherty, Everett, plowman as 'first round talent'

When does our window open? we are probably reliant on last years and this years draft to provide the elite level talent that drives clubs to the top. Normally need about 60-100 games to be a finals bound team. So that's 4+ seasons of being average and fighting for relevance and to keep other players around long enough to see the success. Just in time for Rockliff, beams, Hanley, Zorko, rich to retire!

Decent post mate i agree with most of what you have said. Especially the fact that the talent we have recruited since the go home 5 left is good but its second tier talent not top 10 talent so we shouldn't expect a sudden rise up the ladder.

And why i agree the Dogs and Blues have got top end talent their has to be a recognition of the fact they both went and got excellent coaches in who immediately fixed up their structure and game plan and therefore sure instant improvement. I am not sure we can get anywhere near the Dogs efforts in the next few years but with a decent game plan and structure we could improve a hell of a lot.

 

[jjami15]

Decent post mate i agree with most of what you have said. Especially the fact that the talent we have recruited since the go home 5 left is good but its second tier talent not top 10 talent so we shouldn't expect a sudden rise up the ladder.

And why i agree the Dogs and Blues have got top end talent their has to be a recognition of the fact they both went and got excellent coaches in who immediately fixed up their structure and game plan and therefore sure instant improvement. I am not sure we can get anywhere near the Dogs efforts in the next few years but with a decent game plan and structure we could improve a hell of a lot.

In regards to the Dogs I actually believe that McCartin laid a large part of the foundations especially in regards to contested football.