The Bulldogs and Umpires: Time for a Royal Commission?

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danster168

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Yeah well unfortunately for your argument nearly everyone else considered them the 2nd best team by the time of the GF so again you're basically saying "my proof that the Bulldogs get help from the umps is that although almost everyone else, including the experts, thinks they're a very good team, I don't".

Compelling stuff.
What you just said makes no sense. Me thinking that the dogs get kissed from the umps has nothing to do with whether they're the 2nd, 5th or 18th best team. Why would you think they're related?
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
What you just said makes no sense. Me thinking that the dogs get kissed from the umps has nothing to do with whether they're the 2nd, 5th or 18th best team. Why would you think they're related?
I think you need to re-read your own posts mate.
 

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conrad_437

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Why can't it be both? Why can't both be true? Bevo has a chummy rship with the umpiring department, he runs pre-season training where he continues to coach his players to play for free kicks. At this stage it can't even be denied that he does this such are the performances by some of his players. This is definitely taught and encouraged. Umpires come a closed session where Bevo and umpires go over the said techniques of ducking, flopping and staging to ascertain any loopholes. This can happen behind closed doors. Then when a game comes along, the umpires are privy to all of the ducking, flopping and staging that occurs and thus reward such behaviour. Hence, both statements can be true.
How do you know Bevo has a chummy relationship with the umpiring department. How do you know Bevo coaches his players to play for free kicks? How do you know the umpires come to a closed session where Bevo and the umpires of over the said techniques of ducking, flopping and staging to ascertain any loopholes. How do you that the umpires are privy to all of the ducking, flopping and staging that occurs and thus reward such behaviour?

Sometimes, reading your statements aloud can make you realise how stupid you sound, and how funny it is for the rest of us to read.

I would usually say this is outlandish but the umpiring performances in dogs games were more outlandish than the idea of corruption in the AFL.
haha

Like I said, there's plenty of evidence in this thread alone. Page 63 I've got some pics of the grand finals staging and rewarded frees. But we all know of staging by dogs players as being their 1 wood.
You gave three poor examples that fail to back up your point that there is corruption. Your first screenshot of Hunter dropping the knees is followed up by stating "thank god the umpire didn't fall for that one". If there was corruption, wouldn't that one be paid?

Your second one looks at Macrae ducking his head, although he's clearly in the act of evading. He's picked the ball up low, and seen that Viney is standing up straight. His best chance of getting his arms free is keeping low. Viney's high contact is incidental and unlucky, but Macrae was not attempting to win a free kick.

Like the first example, shouldn't Weightman have received a free kick if he was complaining and there was an umpired led corruption scheme in the AFL attempting to benefit the Dogs?

Calling this evidence is hilarious.


If you need more evidence, watch the round 19 game of the dees vs dogs. You can’t watch that with a straight face.

The bontempelli holding the ball, the bailey smith throw, Bailey dale running 40m without a bounce. Neale-Bullen holding the ball despite having no prior. Harmes being throw to the ground in the melee right in front of the umps, not paid. All of these blatant in front of the umpires.
Right. So isolated incidents of ordinary umpiring that are clearly exaggerated by bias. Got it. Evidence.


The free kick count I usually do not pay too much attention to but at some point you have to. It was 14-3 free kicks at one stage. And ended up at 25-11. I’m sorry but to suggest that an in and under contested side like Melbourne (on a wet night!), only got 11 free kicks in 2 hours of football is corrupt.
"Doesn't pay too much attention to the free kick count".

*Pulls out flimsy statistics that occur all the time*.

CLEARLY CORRUPT!!!!!

You have a full season of the dogs getting favoured and you still have the audacity to ask for proof. That’s on you mate. The onus is on you to look at the evidence. Not me. It’s been staring at you in the face for 6 months.
No, the onus is not on me to look at the evidence. You're looking to prove something and you have failed to do so, outside of looking at a graphic that says the Bulldogs have the biggest free kick differential, cherry-pick isolated incidents and pull out free-kick statistics that tell us nothing.

If you can't understand that what you consider as "proof" is not enough to clearly put forward an umpiring corruption scandal, then no, that is not on me.

Hilarious, tbh.
 

danster168

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How do you know Bevo has a chummy relationship with the umpiring department. How do you know Bevo coaches his players to play for free kicks? How do you know the umpires come to a closed session where Bevo and the umpires of over the said techniques of ducking, flopping and staging to ascertain any loopholes. How do you that the umpires are privy to all of the ducking, flopping and staging that occurs and thus reward such behaviour?

Sometimes, reading your statements aloud can make you realise how stupid you sound, and how funny it is for the rest of us to read.



haha



You gave three poor examples that fail to back up your point that there is corruption. Your first screenshot of Hunter dropping the knees is followed up by stating "thank god the umpire didn't fall for that one". If there was corruption, wouldn't that one be paid?

Your second one looks at Macrae ducking his head, although he's clearly in the act of evading. He's picked the ball up low, and seen that Viney is standing up straight. His best chance of getting his arms free is keeping low. Viney's high contact is incidental and unlucky, but Macrae was not attempting to win a free kick.

Like the first example, shouldn't Weightman have received a free kick if he was complaining and there was an umpired led corruption scheme in the AFL attempting to benefit the Dogs?

Calling this evidence is hilarious.




Right. So isolated incidents of ordinary umpiring that are clearly exaggerated by bias. Got it. Evidence.




"Doesn't pay too much attention to the free kick count".

*Pulls out flimsy statistics that occur all the time*.

CLEARLY CORRUPT!!!!!



No, the onus is not on me to look at the evidence. You're looking to prove something and you have failed to do so, outside of looking at a graphic that says the Bulldogs have the biggest free kick differential, cherry-pick isolated incidents and pull out free-kick statistics that tell us nothing.

If you can't understand that what you consider as "proof" is not enough to clearly put forward an umpiring corruption scandal, then no, that is not on me.

Hilarious, tbh.
Why do I need proof? I don't need proof to show myself what I already believe. This thread has gathered a lot of traction by people not including myself. Think about that.

The fact that you tried to defend macrae ducking is laughable. Look at my display pic one more time and tell me, has a Melbourne player ever done that? I will go as far as to say that no Melbourne player in the history of the game has ever done that. Just look at it. Oliver would absolutely never play like such a pussy like this. it's embarrassing. He would collect the ball and run at the tackler. Not duck and almost kiss the turf.

So you asked for proof, demanded in fact. I showed you. Yet you didn't look at those. That's on you.
 

conrad_437

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Why do I need proof? I don't need proof to show myself what I already believe. This thread has gathered a lot of traction by people not including myself. Think about that.

The fact that you tried to defend macrae ducking is laughable. Look at my display pic one more time and tell me, has a Melbourne player ever done that? I will go as far as to say that no Melbourne player in the history of the game has ever done that. Just look at it. Oliver would absolutely never play like such a pussy like this. it's embarrassing. He would collect the ball and run at the tackler. Not duck and almost kiss the turf.

So you asked for proof, demanded in fact. I showed you. Yet you didn't look at those. That's on you.
Do you have a full brain?

Let me put it simply for you, in a way that your brain might be able to comprehend: You need proof if you want to make wild accusations that challenge the integrity of the competition. Like it or not, labelling a few iffy decisions and an umpiring differential as 'corruption' does not constitute proof.

The fact that you tried to defend macrae ducking is laughable. Look at my display pic one more time and tell me, has a Melbourne player ever done that? I will go as far as to say that no Melbourne player in the history of the game has ever done that. Just look at it. Oliver would absolutely never play like such a pussy like this. it's embarrassing. He would collect the ball and run at the tackler. Not duck and almost kiss the turf.
What a genuine lol. Obsessed.

So you asked for proof, demanded in fact. I showed you. Yet you didn't look at those. That's on you.
I responded to your 'proof', clearly indicating I looked at it. Are you too stupid to comprehend that?
 

danster168

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Do you have a full brain?

Let me put it simply for you, in a way that your brain might be able to comprehend: You need proof if you want to make wild accusations that challenge the integrity of the competition. Like it or not, labelling a few iffy decisions and an umpiring differential as 'corruption' does not constitute proof.


What a genuine lol. Obsessed.



I responded to your 'proof', clearly indicating I looked at it. Are you too stupid to comprehend that?
you dont need proof mate to make allegations. its an opinion based forum. It's based on a 25 week season as well as stats and vision that support this.

For example, let's say the free kick differential was 1200-1 in favour of the dogs this season, would you believe its corruption? Surely yes due to the insane numbers. how about 500-1? i'd say you would still believe that it's corruption. 800-400? 500-375? Maybe not. So basically, everyone has a theshold for which they believe its highly suspect of corruption. everyone. yourself included. And i believe the one sided nature of most of the dogs games this season past this threshold for me. Everyone's threhold is different.

For example, let's have a look at the 'Toby Tax' i.e. the toby greene tribunal rating. Lets say instead of 6 weeks for his last suspension he gets a 42 week suspension. That would be clearly corruption. Same if he got 20 weeks. Same if he got 15 weeks. Same if he got 11 weeks. But if he got 10 weeks suspension for bumping an umpire i could maybe reason it. Because that would be my threshold. People that claim there is a toby tax is also suggestive of corruption and they also don't have proof. it's their opinion. But my point is that it's all about thesholds and for me the dogs being kissed in about 20 out of their 25 games past this threshold for me. And yes, i watched every dogs game this year. Probably more than most dogs fans on here.
 

conrad_437

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you dont need proof mate to make allegations. its an opinion based forum. It's based on a 25 week season as well as stats and vision that support this.

For example, let's say the free kick differential was 1200-1 in favour of the dogs this season, would you believe its corruption? Surely yes due to the insane numbers. how about 500-1? i'd say you would still believe that it's corruption. 800-400? 500-375? Maybe not. So basically, everyone has a theshold for which they believe its highly suspect of corruption. everyone. yourself included. And i believe the one sided nature of most of the dogs games this season past this threshold for me. Everyone's threhold is different.

For example, let's have a look at the 'Toby Tax' i.e. the toby greene tribunal rating. Lets say instead of 6 weeks for his last suspension he gets a 42 week suspension. That would be clearly corruption. Same if he got 20 weeks. Same if he got 15 weeks. Same if he got 11 weeks. But if he got 10 weeks suspension for bumping an umpire i could maybe reason it. Because that would be my threshold. People that claim there is a toby tax is also suggestive of corruption and they also don't have proof. it's their opinion. But my point is that it's all about thesholds and for me the dogs being kissed in about 20 out of their 25 games past this threshold for me. And yes, i watched every dogs game this year. Probably more than most dogs fans on here.
I’ll give you one more try. One of the more bizarre attempts at reasoning potential corruption I’ve ever seen.

And yes, you do need proof. You can’t throw out serious allegations of corruption without proof. That is, unless you want to be laughed at. To be fair, you’re probably the most ridiculed poster on the forum so I guess it’s second nature to you.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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I find it amazing that I can say that Ben Cunnington will on occasion fold the knees and allow himself to be pushed forward in the tackle to try and win a free but no Dogs fan will ever accept that any of their players has ever looked to milk a free on an any occasion ever.

Doth protest too much methinks.
 

conrad_437

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I find it amazing that I can say that Ben Cunnington will on occasion fold the knees and allow himself to be pushed forward in the tackle to try and win a free but no Dogs fan will ever accept that any of their players has ever looked to milk a free on an any occasion ever.

Doth protest too much methinks.
Every player does it. There’s no problem with accepting that. It’s the suggestion that Dogs players are on another level and are “coached” to win free kicks. Weightman and Hunter are the only genuine offenders that can be criticised for at times deliberately attempting to win a free kick.

This thread is also rampant with the suggestion of corruption. Realistically I couldn’t care less what people think of the players, but it is entertaining to converse with nitwits who reckon there’s a league led push to have the bulldogs succeed through umpiring.
 

danster168

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I’ll give you one more try. One of the more bizarre attempts at reasoning potential corruption I’ve ever seen.

And yes, you do need proof. You can’t throw out serious allegations of corruption without proof. That is, unless you want to be laughed at. To be fair, you’re probably the most ridiculed poster on the forum so I guess it’s second nature to you.
You know people talk about the Toby tax with no proof?

Also, you conveniently glossed over the Ugle-hagan gift and didn't answer my question.

Also, you failed to acknowledge any of my points. If the free kick count was 1000-1 would you actually need proof? Use your brain cells mate
 

danster168

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Every player does it. There’s no problem with accepting that. It’s the suggestion that Dogs players are on another level and are “coached” to win free kicks. Weightman and Hunter are the only genuine offenders that can be criticised for at times deliberately attempting to win a free kick.

This thread is also rampant with the suggestion of corruption. Realistically I couldn’t care less what people think of the players, but it is entertaining to converse with nitwits who reckon there’s a league led push to have the bulldogs succeed through umpiring.
You forgot Macrae and Mclean. And don't trivialise it with language like 'at times'. it's most contests. And I'm sorry but other than Spargo Melbourne players don't stage for frees. Oliver has done it off the ball but not when the ball is there to be won. Petracca/Viney/Brayshaw/Sparrow have never done it in their whole footy career.

Also, you failed to show me any screen grab of any AFL player in any era that has ducked to the extent that Macrae did in my profile pic. You tried to normalise it when indeed it's never been done before. Unless you can show me.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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Every player does it. There’s no problem with accepting that. It’s the suggestion that Dogs players are on another level and are “coached” to win free kicks. Weightman and Hunter are the only genuine offenders that can be criticised for at times deliberately attempting to win a free kick.

This thread is also rampant with the suggestion of corruption. Realistically I couldn’t care less what people think of the players, but it is entertaining to converse with nitwits who reckon there’s a league led push to have the bulldogs succeed through umpiring.
And there is no doubt they enter some contests looking to win possesion of the ball from the free first and foremost. They do it so often that it has to be tactic approved of by the coaching staff.
 

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SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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You know people talk about the Toby tax with no proof?

Also, you conveniently glossed over the Ugle-hagan gift and didn't answer my question.

Also, you failed to acknowledge any of my points. If the free kick count was 1000-1 would you actually need proof? Use your brain cells mate
They got lucky as with JUH, just as we got lucky as with Tarryn Thomas and the Dees got super unlucky with Mac Andrew.
 

Sentinel

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You know people talk about the Toby tax with no proof?

Also, you conveniently glossed over the Ugle-hagan gift and didn't answer my question.

Also, you failed to acknowledge any of my points. If the free kick count was 1000-1 would you actually need proof? Use your brain cells mate
Ugle-Hagan wasn't a gift. The same rules applied to every club, the Bulldogs were just fortunate to have a player of his talent fall to the club under the NGA and fortunate that the rule change didn't come in until this year. If JUH was a gift then so was every other NGA player.

That you think this is evidence of corruption shows how much of a nuff you really are, amongst plenty of other evidence.
 

conrad_437

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You know people talk about the Toby tax with no proof?

Also, you conveniently glossed over the Ugle-hagan gift and didn't answer my question.

Also, you failed to acknowledge any of my points. If the free kick count was 1000-1 would you actually need proof? Use your brain cells mate
As Simpkin said, it's pure luck. North Melbourne got a great one in Thomas for the same reason. So did Collingwood with Quaynor. Fremantle with Liam Henry. Two years later the rules are changed. Were the rules changed in response to Melbourne potentially getting Mac Andrews? You can believe that if you're an idiot. Or, the AFL realised that elite talents like the aforementioned don't require the benefits of NGA academies, and thus it is inequitable to other clubs who aren't as fortunate to have these players in their designated areas. The rule had to be instituted at some point, and you can't change the rule mid-year when clubs have already prepared for the upcoming draft and have planned their entire trade periods around achieving the appropriate picks etc (e.g. Port Adelaide with Lachie Jones, pick 16).

What you can do is alter the rules for the draft 18 months away. This therefore leaves clubs with the ability to prepare for such an instance that is fair and equitable for all clubs. It's truly unlucky that Mac Andrews won't be given to Melbourne, but that happens in sport. Nothing is ever completely egalitarian.

I "failed to acknowledge any of your points" because they were too funny. Putting forward extreme hypotheticals is a ridiculous fallacy and disingenuous in debate.

As I have outlined in this thread numerous times, if you cared to read through it, the Bulldogs don't receive exorbitant numbers of free kicks compared to other teams. We finished 7th in Frees For this year with an average of 19.1 per game. 0.1 more than Melbourne, mind you. Does that mean Melbourne and the Bulldogs are equally favoured in receiving free kicks?

What we do is give away less Frees Against than the average. We were 18th in that regard, with 16.3 per game. Only 0.3 less than the next lowest (Eagles), with 16.6. Is that down to better discipline or corruption?


Also, the so-called 'Toby Tax' is a direct result of his accumulation of indiscretions throughout the years. People don't like it because he's a damn good player, but if you're a repeat offender, why should he receive preferential treatment from the tribunal and MRO?

In comparison, you're alleging corruption based on stats (which you haven't actually had an in-depth look at) and biased watching of games.
 

conrad_437

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You forgot Macrae and Mclean. And don't trivialise it with language like 'at times'. it's most contests. And I'm sorry but other than Spargo Melbourne players don't stage for frees. Oliver has done it off the ball but not when the ball is there to be won. Petracca/Viney/Brayshaw/Sparrow have never done it in their whole footy career.

Also, you failed to show me any screen grab of any AFL player in any era that has ducked to the extent that Macrae did in my profile pic. You tried to normalise it when indeed it's never been done before. Unless you can show me.
McLean has rarely dropped the knees since 2018. You'd know if you watched our games like you say you do.

Staging is also different from ducking. Staging is what Oliver did in 2017 with Schofield, in diving to the ground under no contact and faking an injury.

Ducking is dropping the head/knees in the hope of achieving a free-kick as a result of a poor tackling technique of opposing teams. It's exploitative of the rules, but it's not cheating.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually watched the vision of Macrae. Or even played a game of football in your life. He had precisely 0.2 seconds to react to Viney after picking up the ball. His head is already extremely low due to picking up the ball and protecting the space. It's unlucky for Viney, but if you're looking for a scapegoat for your cause, this ain't it chief.
 

danster168

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Ugle-Hagan wasn't a gift. The same rules applied to every club, the Bulldogs were just fortunate to have a player of his talent fall to the club under the NGA and fortunate that the rule change didn't come in until this year. If JUH was a gift then so was every other NGA player.

That you think this is evidence of corruption shows how much of a nuff you really are, amongst plenty of other evidence.
Right, so they just conveniently change the rules after the dogs get gifted. They knew a year ahead of time that Ugle-Hagan was going to be a top pick but decided to wait until the damage had been done before changing the rules. Right
 

danster168

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McLean has rarely dropped the knees since 2018. You'd know if you watched our games like you say you do.

Staging is also different from ducking. Staging is what Oliver did in 2017 with Schofield, in diving to the ground under no contact and faking an injury.

Ducking is dropping the head/knees in the hope of achieving a free-kick as a result of a poor tackling technique of opposing teams. It's exploitative of the rules, but it's not cheating.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually watched the vision of Macrae. Or even played a game of football in your life. He had precisely 0.2 seconds to react to Viney after picking up the ball. His head is already extremely low due to picking up the ball and protecting the space. It's unlucky for Viney, but if you're looking for a scapegoat for your cause, this ain't it chief.
You're having a laugh. Like I said, I've never seen anyone duck that unnaturally in my time watching football. There's no excuse for it. He can easily turn sideways and take the contact. If it's so common like you say it is, show me a screenshot of anyone that does it like this. He also dived forward in a tackle with Brayshaw trying to draw a push in the back in the GF. It's his first response.

Also, it's not unlucky on Viney. It's simply just not a free kick.This was one of the frees that the umps tried to get the dogs back in the game with. Horrendous call, when the dogs needed it most.
 

conrad_437

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You're having a laugh. Like I said, I've never seen anyone duck that unnaturally in my time watching football. There's no excuse for it. He can easily turn sideways and take the contact. If it's so common like you say it is, show me a screenshot of anyone that does it like this. He also dived forward in a tackle with Brayshaw trying to draw a push in the back in the GF. It's his first response.

Also, it's not unlucky on Viney. It's simply just not a free kick.This was one of the frees that the umps tried to get the dogs back in the game with. Horrendous call, when the dogs needed it most.
Hahahahahaha
 

danster168

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As Simpkin said, it's pure luck. North Melbourne got a great one in Thomas for the same reason. So did Collingwood with Quaynor. Fremantle with Liam Henry. Two years later the rules are changed. Were the rules changed in response to Melbourne potentially getting Mac Andrews? You can believe that if you're an idiot. Or, the AFL realised that elite talents like the aforementioned don't require the benefits of NGA academies, and thus it is inequitable to other clubs who aren't as fortunate to have these players in their designated areas. The rule had to be instituted at some point, and you can't change the rule mid-year when clubs have already prepared for the upcoming draft and have planned their entire trade periods around achieving the appropriate picks etc (e.g. Port Adelaide with Lachie Jones, pick 16).

What you can do is alter the rules for the draft 18 months away. This therefore leaves clubs with the ability to prepare for such an instance that is fair and equitable for all clubs. It's truly unlucky that Mac Andrews won't be given to Melbourne, but that happens in sport. Nothing is ever completely egalitarian.

I "failed to acknowledge any of your points" because they were too funny. Putting forward extreme hypotheticals is a ridiculous fallacy and disingenuous in debate.

As I have outlined in this thread numerous times, if you cared to read through it, the Bulldogs don't receive exorbitant numbers of free kicks compared to other teams. We finished 7th in Frees For this year with an average of 19.1 per game. 0.1 more than Melbourne, mind you. Does that mean Melbourne and the Bulldogs are equally favoured in receiving free kicks?

What we do is give away less Frees Against than the average. We were 18th in that regard, with 16.3 per game. Only 0.3 less than the next lowest (Eagles), with 16.6. Is that down to better discipline or corruption?


Also, the so-called 'Toby Tax' is a direct result of his accumulation of indiscretions throughout the years. People don't like it because he's a damn good player, but if you're a repeat offender, why should he receive preferential treatment from the tribunal and MRO?

In comparison, you're alleging corruption based on stats (which you haven't actually had an in-depth look at) and biased watching of games.
You can 100% change the rules a year out. It doesn't need to be 18 months out. They've change rules mid season all the time. Or even later, such as priority pick decisions etc.

It was 100% unnecessary and unfair to wait for an already above avg team get the number 1 draft pick when they didn't deserve it. The obvious thing to do is change the decision before the competition becomes even more unfair. It's already the most compromised draft of any sport in the world. The dogs have been the most gifted with a plethora of father/sons and a number 1 draft pick NGA. who does Melb have? 1. Jack Viney. Other than that, no help from father sons or NGA prospects. That's why any future success by the dogs has a massive asterisk next to it.

The dees at least won their flags from successful drafting due to years of being hopeless. The dogs just get gifted father sons/nga prospects and umpire favouritism.
 

conrad_437

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You can 100% change the rules a year out. It doesn't need to be 18 months out. They've change rules mid season all the time. Or even later, such as priority pick decisions etc.

It was 100% unnecessary and unfair to wait for an already above avg team get the number 1 draft pick when they didn't deserve it. The obvious thing to do is change the decision before the competition becomes even more unfair. It's already the most compromised draft of any sport in the world. The dogs have been the most gifted with a plethora of father/sons and a number 1 draft pick NGA. who does Melb have? 1. Jack Viney. Other than that, no help from father sons or NGA prospects. That's why any future success by the dogs has a massive asterisk next to it.

The dees at least won their flags from successful drafting due to years of being hopeless. The dogs just get gifted father sons/nga prospects and umpire favouritism.
A priority pick is dependent on a team's current performance. Non applicable statement.

Stop coming up with narratives to suit you agenda. They're getting sillier as you keep going. If you want to discuss Jamarra and the NGA rules, make your own thread. It's irrelevant in this discussion.

Father sons are also irrelevant to this discussion.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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It was 100% unnecessary and unfair to wait for an already above avg team get the number 1 draft pick when they didn't deserve it.
So if Melbourne had a father/son coming through this year that was ranked pick 1, you'd agree he should go into the general draft to maintain the integrity of the comp.

Stop sooking about this. North would have had Josh Kelly f/s under previous interpretations of the rules. The rules changed. Move on.
 

danster168

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So if Melbourne had a father/son coming through this year that was ranked pick 1, you'd agree he should go into the general draft to maintain the integrity of the comp.

Stop sooking about this. North would have had Josh Kelly f/s under previous interpretations of the rules. The rules changed. Move on.
Well i never would have had an NGA system. I wouldn't even have a father/son system. because i put a fair competition as THE MOST important element of running a competition.

I believe Mac Andrew is the 2nd best player in the draft. I don't believe Melbourne deserve him. I'm ok with that. But the same thing should've applied last year. If Melb had Mac Andrew we'd probably own the dogs for the next decade with our list but this decision alone brings the dogs closer to ours. Heavens, imagine if the dees had Ugle-hagan and the dogs missed out on Mac Andrew. The bridge between us and them would be massive.
 

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