Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[thylacine60]

you’re better than this thy ... it’s not advocating.. it’s nit picking to cause a headline and draw attention to his own personal causes which happens to be a noble cause i might add however there are no words in our song that are racist ... in fact the original tune was changed to not be racist .... nobody would ever have known.... now people know and they will now think “racism” when they here our club song.... the guy is a low life and has put the club in a corner with this PC bullshit .... it’s a dogs act.

if I was the club I’d rebut with the facts and dig my heels in but mark my words we’ll be gotten here .... it’s a disgrace and political correctness has gone too far

Disagree. Besides, the issue is bigger than whoever this person is. Coon songs were a thing. Our club song is sung to the tune of one, lyrics aside. I am starting to lean toward not fiddling about with socially unacceptable practices from history - except where it's obviously necessary. Good discussion point though.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

There was a poll on Herald Sun where they asked if our theme song was in any way racist and 96% said no. The media are so out of touch with what the general public think. I don't even know why we are having this discussion and giving airtime to opinions held by a tiny percentage of the population, who I can guarantee aren't footy fans by the way. We ain't changing our song, its the most recognisable and famous song in the AFL. Its been sung more times on grand final day at the MCG than any. Our song is represents the bare fabric of our footy club. It represents the 16 premierships. All the champion players we've had and most importantly all the generations of blues die hards that have gone every week to the Princes Park, the MCG, Etihad or anywhere in Australia to watch our great footy club. It was once said that nothing feels like a Saturday Arvo more than hearing the Carlton fans belt out "da dada dadaaaaa" after a big win.

If we actually do alter our song in anyway, I will never buy a membership of Carlton again coz our song is the soul of Carlton Footy Club.
And finally.....
COME ON BLUES, LETS GIVE IT TO GOLDCOAST TONIGHT SO WE CAN BELT OUT OUR SONG LOUD AND PROUD!!!!

Those points are fair enough but to play devil's advocate for a second, they're actually irrelevant to the discussion somewhat. 4% think it's racist? The aboriginal population of Australia makes up about that of the total population.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Sigh. We're all the way down to literally 'cancelling' tunes now?

Hawks song has to be next on the chopping block then I spose, it was sung by the Redcoats to mock the US troops for being gay. Absolutely unacceptable in this day and age so it's gotta go.

And don't let me hear Puttin' On The Ritz again either. I know it's one of the most iconic tunes ever, but there were some problematic words attached to it 100 years ago, so it's best we completely erase it from existence.

In fact let's cancel every historical thing that doesn't meet today's moral standards. Now that's progressive thinking!

 

[blueblooded]

Disagree. Besides, the issue is bigger than whoever this person is. Coon songs were a thing. Our club song is sung to the tune of one, lyrics aside. I am starting to lean toward not fiddling about with socially unacceptable practices from history - except where it's obviously necessary. Good discussion point though.

so you would change the history of our club because the original tune was not to modern standards? Who knew this before this crusader alerted the world to it? Seriously thy there are no words in “our” song that are racist none ...our club is an institution with 150 years of tradition and we’re going to let some crusader draw an inference that no one even knows about to change our culture? ....I’m offended at this! I’m actually offended that someone is poking at us with this ...I’m blueblooded as my name suggests ...I’m offended that someone is drawing an inference that’s not even evident in the lyrics and our culture is being threatened ....this guy can piss off ... but we’re all to PC these days the club included and we’ll change our history to appease the aminority ... when there’s nothing even to worry about.
I’ll sing it loud and proud until I die ..., da da da da da da !!!

 

[blueblooded]

Would love you to show me where I've said that. Research skills are strong in this one.

doesn’t matter ... what’s your solution if you think it’s an offensive song ?? Are we changing it ...are we changing our culture for this inference ... !? And that’s all it is ... an inference ... there’s no racist words in the song ...

let’s go ... let’s debate this.... it’s important

 

[Robbo's my hero]

I’m happy to sing it acapella. Problem solved.

 

[kingkingston]

Rex Hunt "i kept Robert Walls to 7 kicks in the 1972 Grand Final..................problem was he kicked 6 goals one"

 

[gandaal]

I have a dark dark secret.

I hate our club song. It's terrible.

 

[thylacine60]

helps if you're drunk............

 

[gandaal]

Have you heard that we keep our ends up?

 

[katmanblue]

I don't understand what this achieves.

Do people hear Lily of Laguna - lyrics and all - when they hear the Carlton theme song? Because I've never heard Lily of Laguna in its original form, and I don't think I ever will by choice.

I suppose my real question is, does bringing this specific thing to light and changing it improve the lives of people in contemporary Australia by any amount?

Gets his name in the paper.

 

[Gethelred]

Gets his name in the paper.

His name was already there. Recognition is something he already has.

I don't know if trying to suggest he's in it for himself is the best way to derail what he's trying to do, either.

 

[My Hat]

When the team sings the song after a win it goes through about four different keys and finishes up as more of a chant. So if it's the tune people are worried about...

 

[katmanblue]

His name was already there. Recognition is something he already has.

I don't know if trying to suggest he's in it for himself is the best way to derail what he's trying to do, either.

Yes, but these things have a half life. And the attention can be addictive. The Coon Cheese thing was a little while ago. Maybe too long for this gentleman.

And the thing is, that this has just enough to make some think about it, but also has enough for most to outright dismiss it.

It's like people who call in to talk back radio and get incensed at a shock jock.

 

[thylacine60]

Gets his name in the paper.

can you get your head around someone who actually advocates for an issue he/she believes in? you must have lobbied for someone other than yourself sometime?

 

[Gethelred]

Yes, but these things have a half life. And the attention can be addictive. The Coon Cheese thing was a little while ago. Maybe too long for this gentleman.

And the thing is, that this has just enough to make some think about it, but also has enough for most to outright dismiss it.

It's like people who call in to talk back radio and get incensed at a shock jock.

You don't do what he did with Coon cheese for 10 years - with the majority of what he did going on completely in the background, well away from the media - without there being something more to it that simply wanting attention.

And, even were I to accept that as why he's doing it, does it make what he's saying incorrect inherently?

 

[juzz88]

Excuse my ignorance, but what was the issue with the whole Coon cheese thing?

I'd always assumed that Coon was the surname of the family that started the company. But I'm now guessing that was not the case?

Edit: Never mind, just googled it. Apparently it was named after the bloke who invented that particular method of cheese making. But it was originally just a sub-brand of Kraft and later Dairy Farmers.

In hindsight, it kind of makes you wonder why they resisted the name change for so long. It's not like people wouldn't have recognised the Kraft or Dairy Farmers brands.

 

[myblueroan]

I have a dark dark secret.

I hate our club song. It's terrible.

Try Canadian Club

 

[KnaveyBlue]

I have a dark dark secret.

I hate our club song. It's terrible.

Get out.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Have you heard that we keep our ends up?

"We'll keep our end up" is absolute gold. Works on a number of levels!

(ok two)

 

[gbatman]

The problem I have with activisms is that there's differing reasons for it and not all of it is genuine. Making the world better for people is a genuine reason for activism and running a campaign however most activism and movements, while they suggest they are about doing good and are very convincing are not about that at all. The questions that need to be asked when someone starts a campaign is 'is the information 100% factual and accurate' and 'will these proposed changes make the world a better place for people'?

Understanding why people become activists and run campaigns can be tricky because there's a host of reasons. Unfortunately a lot of movements, lifestyles choices and campaigns what ever you want to call them do not tick these boxes and are not genuine. They sure are convincing and very good at getting people to buy in but they come from something else and something which is not good in any way. You have to look at what the individuals are getting out of it when presented with a campaign like this and decide to become an activist. A lot of the time it's money, people starting "charities" that convince people they are doing good for a cause but really they are just taking people's money to provide the founders and CEO's cruisy income. Sometimes it's power because there are people out there who have that personality trait where they are obsessed with having control of people, they say jump and everyone jumps and they love that. Some use political correctness as a platform for bullying, society has become very anti-bullying which is great however bullies have adapted and become smarter and have realised they can get away with it if it's for a good cause. Some people get a taste of destruction and/or making change and they can't control themselves, it becomes an addiction, they just need to keep going because it gives them fulfilment and they get a buzz from it. Then there are people who are obsessed with being better than everyone else because that's what makes them feel good, to say they are a better person than you even if it's not factually true it's about how they feel. Some just love to feel more moral and greater than others and they need to let others know this and enforce it.

So how do we distinguish genuine activism and campaigns from the disingenuous? Well is what Dr Hagan saying 100% factual and truthful and would this change make the world a better place? Well my answer to both of those things is no.

For a start our song isn't racist, it has no racist lyrics what so ever. It's to the tune of a song which did but it was the lyrics which made that song racist, not the tune and our song which is a different song has no racist lyrics. How many degrees of separation does something or someone need from racism to be deemed not racist? By Dr Hagan's logic 'Cheer' cheese is still racist because it was once called Coon however he has signed off on the change that he pushed for. The changes have been made to the lyrics of the original song just as they have been made to Cheer cheese to remove the racist aspects. Dr Hagan is a hypocrite. He believes you can rebrand a cheese to remove the racist connotations but rewriting they lyrics of a song does not do the same. The other question is will changing our song make the world better for anyone? No, absolutely not. I'm sure it would give Dr Hagan a real buzz however our song is oppressing no one and upsetting no one outside of the fans of the opposition clubs after we beat them.

Sometimes you are a target of bullying and not knowing it and our club is just that right now. Sometimes a person's motive is not what it appears and in this case we have something which is growing more and more common which is a disingenuous activism campaign. Something which is a blight on society as it creates anger which creates hate and it segregates people it's also the reason for another massive problem we face with social media and that's the enormous amount of misinformation people are expose to.

Make no mistake, activism and campaigns can do a lot of good if they are ran properly and if they are genuine however many are not and it's becoming a problem and this one is not genuine. Dealing with non-genuine activism and campaigns, the world's not equipped to handle this yet but hopefully we get there.

 

[thylacine60]

I'll watch with interest to see how this unfolds, I actually don't expect it to go away.

finally, a sensible comment - well done........

 

[Gethelred]

The problem I have with activisms is that there's differing reasons for it and not all of it is genuine. Making the world better for people is a genuine reason for activism and running a campaign however most activism and movements, while they suggest they are about doing good and are very convincing are not about that at all. The questions that need to be asked when someone starts a campaign is 'is the information 100% factual and accurate' and 'will these proposed changes make the world a better place for people'?

Understanding why people become activists and run campaigns can be tricky because there's a host of reasons. Unfortunately a lot of movements, lifestyles choices and campaigns what ever you want to call them do not tick these boxes and are not genuine. They sure are convincing and very good at getting people to buy in but they come from something else and something which is not good in any way. You have to look at what the individuals are getting out of it when presented with a campaign like this and decide to become an activist. A lot of the time it's money, people starting "charities" that convince people they are doing good for a cause but really they are just taking people's money to provide the founders and CEO's cruisy income. Sometimes it's power because there are people out there who have that personality trait where they are obsessed with having control of people, they say jump and everyone jumps and they love that. Some use political correctness as a platform for bullying, society has become very anti-bullying which is great however bullies have adapted and become smarter and have realised they can get away with it if it's for a good cause. Some people get a taste of destruction and/or making change and they can't control themselves, it becomes an addiction, they just need to keep going because it gives them fulfilment and they get a buzz from it. Then there are people who are obsessed with being better than everyone else because that's what makes them feel good, to say they are a better person than you even if it's not factually true it's about how they feel. Some just love to feel more moral and greater than others and they need to let others know this and enforce it.

So how do we distinguish genuine activism and campaigns from the disingenuous? Well is what Dr Hagan saying 100% factual and truthful and would this change make the world a better place? Well my answer to both of those things is no.

For a start our song isn't racist, it has no racist lyrics what so ever. It's to the tune of a song which did but it was the lyrics which made that song racist, not the tune and our song which is a different song has no racist lyrics. How many degrees of separation does something or someone need from racism to be deemed not racist? By Dr Hagan's logic 'Cheer' cheese is still racist because it was once called Coon however he has signed off on the change that he pushed for. The changes have been made to the lyrics of the original song just as they have been made to Cheer cheese to remove the racist aspects. Dr Hagan is a hypocrite. He believes you can rebrand a cheese to remove the racist connotations but rewriting they lyrics of a song does not do the same. The other question is will changing our song make the world better for anyone? No, absolutely not. I'm sure it would give Dr Hagan a real buzz however our song is oppressing no one and upsetting no one outside of the fans of the opposition clubs after we beat them.

Sometimes you are a target of bullying and not knowing it and our club is just that right now. Sometimes a person's motive is not what it appears and in this case we have something which is growing more and more common which is a disingenuous activism campaign. Something which is a blight on society as it creates anger which creates hate and it segregates people it's also the reason for another massive problem we face with social media and that's the enormous amount of misinformation people are expose to.

Make no mistake, activism and campaigns can do a lot of good if they are ran properly and if they are genuine however many are not and it's becoming a problem and this one is not genuine. Dealing with non-genuine activism and campaigns, the world's not equipped to handle this yet but hopefully we get there.

There's a lot of words in there, and they can be summarized thus:

- you think Hagan is hypocritical, in that if Coon cheese changed to Cheer cheese is good enough then so too should Lily of Laguna changed to We are the Navy Blues. That's a fair criticism to make.
- you think activism is or can be tainted by motives other than improvement of society. This is somewhat more dubious, and would require more space and discussion - and, probably, a different venue than the Carlton board; I've sworn off the SRP - than this thread or subject.

I agree with you as far as the first point goes, but the second is kind of a smokescreen, IMO. One can be completely hypocritical and objectively correct; one can be the beacon of virtue and consistency and be 100% wrong. Hypocrisy alone does not make one incorrect, and just because one is virtue signaling does not make one wrong.

 

[thylacine60]

The problem I have with activisms is that there's differing reasons for it and not all of it is genuine. Making the world better for people is a genuine reason for activism and running a campaign however most activism and movements, while they suggest they are about doing good and are very convincing are not about that at all. The questions that need to be asked when someone starts a campaign is 'is the information 100% factual and accurate' and 'will these proposed changes make the world a better place for people'?

Understanding why people become activists and run campaigns can be tricky because there's a host of reasons. Unfortunately a lot of movements, lifestyles choices and campaigns what ever you want to call them do not tick these boxes and are not genuine. They sure are convincing and very good at getting people to buy in but they come from something else and something which is not good in any way. You have to look at what the individuals are getting out of it when presented with a campaign like this and decide to become an activist. A lot of the time it's money, people starting "charities" that convince people they are doing good for a cause but really they are just taking people's money to provide the founders and CEO's cruisy income. Sometimes it's power because there are people out there who have that personality trait where they are obsessed with having control of people, they say jump and everyone jumps and they love that. Some use political correctness as a platform for bullying, society has become very anti-bullying which is great however bullies have adapted and become smarter and have realised they can get away with it if it's for a good cause. Some people get a taste of destruction and/or making change and they can't control themselves, it becomes an addiction, they just need to keep going because it gives them fulfilment and they get a buzz from it. Then there are people who are obsessed with being better than everyone else because that's what makes them feel good, to say they are a better person than you even if it's not factually true it's about how they feel. Some just love to feel more moral and greater than others and they need to let others know this and enforce it.

So how do we distinguish genuine activism and campaigns from the disingenuous? Well is what Dr Hagan saying 100% factual and truthful and would this change make the world a better place? Well my answer to both of those things is no.

For a start our song isn't racist, it has no racist lyrics what so ever. It's to the tune of a song which did but it was the lyrics which made that song racist, not the tune and our song which is a different song has no racist lyrics. How many degrees of separation does something or someone need from racism to be deemed not racist? By Dr Hagan's logic 'Cheer' cheese is still racist because it was once called Coon however he has signed off on the change that he pushed for. The changes have been made to the lyrics of the original song just as they have been made to Cheer cheese to remove the racist aspects. Dr Hagan is a hypocrite. He believes you can rebrand a cheese to remove the racist connotations but rewriting they lyrics of a song does not do the same. The other question is will changing our song make the world better for anyone? No, absolutely not. I'm sure it would give Dr Hagan a real buzz however our song is oppressing no one and upsetting no one outside of the fans of the opposition clubs after we beat them.

Sometimes you are a target of bullying and not knowing it and our club is just that right now. Sometimes a person's motive is not what it appears and in this case we have something which is growing more and more common which is a disingenuous activism campaign. Something which is a blight on society as it creates anger which creates hate and it segregates people it's also the reason for another massive problem we face with social media and that's the enormous amount of misinformation people are expose to.

Make no mistake, activism and campaigns can do a lot of good if they are ran properly and if they are genuine however many are not and it's becoming a problem and this one is not genuine. Dealing with non-genuine activism and campaigns, the world's not equipped to handle this yet but hopefully we get there.

love the way you have presented yourself here, some points I would take you up on but why bother? where the issue of racism is concerned, the majority of opinion is often extreme, reactionary and inflammatory - may as well ponder the worth of your post and leave it there..........

 

[gbatman]

love the way you have presented yourself here, some points I would take you up on but why bother? where the issue of racism is concerned, the majority of opinion is often extreme, reactionary and inflammatory - may as well ponder the worth of your post and leave it there..........

I would not mind at all hearing your opinion at all however it's up to you as to whether you would like to.

Racism is a touchy subject and the efforts to erase it from society's future and present must go on however nothing is immune from corruption and if there is an avenue to make money, take power, bully, harass, belittle and satisfy ones immoral desires and get away with it, humans will find a way and in the world at the moment it's a growing problem. Make no mistake, social justice is something long associated with doing good an being pure but it's something which has been corrupted and is used by some as a vessel by selfish people with unconstructive desires to get what they want and do what they want in regards to what I mentioned above and get away with it and avoid criticism.

You're right in regards to many opinions around racism, they are like that. Most people hate racism and most hate being labelled as racist, this is why it's a touchy subject and in recent times there's been a lot of labelling things as racist, many of which are extremely vague and it creates a lot of anger which creates a lot of hate and segregation and the only winners are those who start these campaigns and everyone else takes a step backwards because of selfish people who just wanted to satisfy their urges and start a campaign.

It's hard to tell whether people have a genuine issue or whether they are just doing it for themselves. It might be hard to believe that someone can claim a high moral such as anti-racist, appear upset and offended and actually be in the wrong and be doing a campaign for their own selfish reasons but this is the modern world. The world has changed a lot, especially the last 10 or 15 years. The rise of social media has seen the rise of a new breed of scams with a whole new bag of tricks. A person can be offended and upset and use that to get what they want and do what they want, it's actually a form of manipulation and abuse. Facts take a back seat to emotion, misinformation flows thick and fast and uncontrolled for the purpose of manipulating people to get what they want from others.

Unfortunately if you're good at it people are easily influenced and manipulated so you can bet if this guy has those skills he'll get people on his side, he'll build an army to attack the Carlton Football Club and bully and harass until he is satisfied. The media will jump on it because they are only interested in making money and people will pay attention to this so be prepared to hear about it.

I don't know what your thoughts on the matter is. I just feel a lot of us have been caught out by this type of thing.