Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[katmanblue]

You don't do what he did with Coon cheese for 10 years - with the majority of what he did going on completely in the background, well away from the media - without there being something more to it that simply wanting attention.

And, even were I to accept that as why he's doing it, does it make what he's saying incorrect inherently?

In this case, yes.

How can a tune be racist?

Is this a case of finding shapes in the clouds? If you look for something hard enough, you are bound to find it.

It's lyrics that can be racist. Not the music.

The only thing our team song has in common with the racist lyrics of Lilly of Laguna are a collection of musical notes.

None of which have the capacity to be inherently racist.

 

[gbatman]

There's a lot of words in there, and they can be summarized thus:

- you think Hagan is hypocritical, in that if Coon cheese changed to Cheer cheese is good enough then so too should Lily of Laguna changed to We are the Navy Blues. That's a fair criticism to make.
- you think activism is or can be tainted by motives other than improvement of society. This is somewhat more dubious, and would require more space and discussion - and, probably, a different venue than the Carlton board; I've sworn off the SRP - than this thread or subject.

I agree with you as far as the first point goes, but the second is kind of a smokescreen, IMO. One can be completely hypocritical and objectively correct; one can be the beacon of virtue and consistency and be 100% wrong. Hypocrisy alone does not make one incorrect, and just because one is virtue signaling does not make one wrong.

Lily of Laguna itself had it's lyrics changed so that it was no longer racist many years ago as one poster has informed us, we have borrowed the tune and have never had racist lyrics in the club song. Our club song is well it's own song. If you think it's ok to just change the words on a packet of cheese but not ok to just change the words in a song then yes, you are a hypocrite therefore where does his credibility lie?

I know for a fact how corrupt activism is. When you're an expert in your field, when you're knowledgeable on something most aren't and you're having to see what some big activist groups are pumping into society in terms of false and misleading information and how well they are manipulating people, it's sickening and I am sure they are all capable of it. There is just too much to gain. We are so naïve as a society when it comes to who/what we chose to believe and trust.

Activism has done a lot of good for the world, without a doubt but it's as corrupt as anything else on the planet these days. Don't be fooled by the moral stance, that's just a front that makes people look the other way and not question them. How could someone or an organisation with such a high moral stance actually be doing wrong? Easily, that's how scams work in the modern world, it's what people do these days to get what they want and not be questioned or called out.

The psychology of activism is sure an interesting one and one we need to understand better because it can be used for the wrong reasons and people can use it to do wrong things.

In this instance I am not buying it for a second that Hagan is pure with his morals and his intent, he's already been hypocritical in his attack on the club and it's song. I think there is little doubt that this is something he gains pleasure from. Is it pleasure from making the world better or is it for more selfish reasons? We need to ask ourselves the question, knowing full well humans lie and deceive, what's he got to gain?

Trust me, some social justice campaigns are pure but not many of them, not these days and we can't be so naïve it's just human nature that some of us will do the wrong thing and be very good at it.

To be honest I think things like this overshadow real issues and just fuel the flames of hate and segregation.

 

[Gethelred]

In this case, yes.

How can a tune be racist?

Is this a case of finding shapes in the clouds? If you look for something hard enough, you are bound to find it.

It's lyrics that can be racist. Not the music.

The only thing our team song has in common with the racist lyrics of Lilly of Laguna are a collection of musical notes.

None of which have the capacity to be inherently racist.

I don't disagree with your post, nor am I really arguing that a tune itself can be racist. I like the theme song; I first sang it when I was two, ffs!

What I am saying is that hypocrisy or the desire for attention doesn't make one's claim inherently wrong by themselves. If Hagan truly wants to get the theme song replaced, then let's discuss why; if he plans to weaponize cancel culture by informing people who were unaware of what the lyrics originally were in order to gain support, that's one thing. If he has legitimate reasons I cannot think of to replace the song that hold water, I am interested to hear them.

I think news.com is also hardly the best source to depict his argument. Either when he makes his campaign or other news begins to emerge, we can look at it and evaluate his basis then.

 

[Weiterbot23]

What happened to the megafauna ?

Glass houses imo

 

[Gethelred]

Lily of Laguna itself had it's lyrics changed so that it was no longer racist many years ago as one poster has informed us, we have borrowed the tune and have never had racist lyrics in the club song. Our club song is well it's own song. If you think it's ok to just change the words on a packet of cheese but not ok to just change the words in a song then yes, you are a hypocrite therefore where does his credibility lie?

I know for a fact how corrupt activism is. When you're an expert in your field, when you're knowledgeable on something most aren't and you're having to see what some big activist groups are pumping into society in terms of false and misleading information and how well they are manipulating people, it's sickening and I am sure they are all capable of it. There is just too much to gain. We are so naïve as a society when it comes to who/what we chose to believe and trust.

Activism has done a lot of good for the world, without a doubt but it's as corrupt as anything else on the planet these days. Don't be fooled by the moral stance, that's just a front that makes people look the other way and not question them. How could someone or an organisation with such a high moral stance actually be doing wrong? Easily, that's how scams work in the modern world, it's what people do these days to get what they want and not be questioned or called out.

The psychology of activism is sure an interesting one and one we need to understand better because it can be used for the wrong reasons and people can use it to do wrong things.

In this instance I am not buying it for a second that Hagan is pure with his morals and his intent, he's already been hypocritical in his attack on the club and it's song. I think there is little doubt that this is something he gains pleasure from. Is it pleasure from making the world better or is it for more selfish reasons? We need to ask ourselves the question, knowing full well humans lie and deceive, what's he got to gain?

Trust me, some social justice campaigns are pure but not many of them, not these days and we can't be so naïve it's just human nature that some of us will do the wrong thing and be very good at it.

To be honest I think things like this overshadow real issues and just fuel the flames of hate and segregation.

You've not really said anything you didn't say in your first post; you've restated your argument.

In no place have I said we should replace the club's theme song, and it's disingenuous to place this as a diametry. What I've said is that my own views - and anyone who supports Carlton - are probably suspect due to our support; we're hardly going to accept that the song is racist when we've been singing it for ****ing decades. What I am saying - to you - is that hypocrisy or the accusation of virtue signalling or a finacial motive for activism alone does not render their criticism illegitimate.

My stance is very much let's wait and see what his case is before we condemn it.

 

[gandaal]

Channel 7 hit piece on Carlton in the news. Apparently Carlton just want to keep things Lily white.

We should sue.

 

[JustaBattler]

Lets cancel democracy - it is a system of government invented by land owners who bore arms to spread a vote amongs themeselves whist their economy was based on foreign traders , slaves and women women who didn't vote.

No matter that the word and system isn't practised anymore - it is the principle of the thing that counts. Democracy bad. Democrats bad - because some click baiting nuff nuff says so.

That is the puerile level of thinking invovled in such 'activism' - it isnt activism it is just stirring - more anarchist in tradition than revolutionary.

 

[Gethelred]

Channel 7 hit piece on Carlton in the news. Apparently Carlton just want to keep things Lily white.

We should sue.

Eh, same story doing the rounds. TV news bulletins picking up on the News.com story, and restating the same talking points.

I've just tried to see if there's something more substantial to his supposed goal of getting Carlton to change their song than the stated goal in the article, but to this point there's nothing I can see beyond the stated facts: he's inquired with the club, and the club have responded. There's nothing formal afoot, and no website or attempted mobilization of social media underway.

We'll see if this goes anywhere, I guess.

 

[gbatman]

You've not really said anything you didn't say in your first post; you've restated your argument.

In no place have I said we should replace the club's theme song, and it's disingenuous to place this as a diametry. What I've said is that my own views - and anyone who supports Carlton - are probably suspect due to our support; we're hardly going to accept that the song is racist when we've been singing it for ******* decades. What I am saying - to you - is that hypocrisy or the accusation of virtue signalling or a finacial motive for activism alone does not render their criticism illegitimate.

My stance is very much let's wait and see what his case is before we condemn it.

I've said plenty, I have reiterated things though yes.

If he has any more to add I'll hear it, however I don't know if he does.

I'm aware that other motives don't render an activists cause illegitimate however it's a hell of a red flag. There's a lot of activists and movements flat-out lying to achieve their main goal which is not their stated goal. The lack of funding and work in the field of from activist groups is also a massive red flag.

This guy is just moving on to his next target and it's us.

 

[Gethelred]

If he has any more to add I'll hear it, however I don't know if he does.

I'm aware that other motives don't render an activists cause illegitimate however it's a hell of a red flag. There's a lot of activists and movements flat-out lying to achieve their main goal which is not their stated goal. The lack of funding and work in the field of from activist groups is also a massive red flag.

This guy is just moving on to his next target and it's us.

You may know more about this than I do, have more to do with activists and activism than I do.

As I said, if he's got something more than he's stated, he hasn't shared it yet nor has anything really come of it. It could be that it's just beginning.

We'll see if there's more to this.

 

[thylacine60]

Channel 7 hit piece on Carlton in the news. Apparently Carlton just want to keep things Lily white.

We should sue.

hit piece - like it wouldn't be mentioned if it were another club...........

 

[gandaal]

hit piece - like it wouldn't be mentioned if it were another club...........

It's not the facts I've got a problem with. It's the clear suggestion that Carlton is a racist club because they use this melody.

 

[thylacine60]

no-one believes that.........

 

[Metalcrusher]

It's not the facts I've got a problem with. It's the clear suggestion that Carlton is a racist club because they use this melody.

Click Bait at its finest.

 

[Metalcrusher]

I've said plenty, I have reiterated things though yes.

If he has any more to add I'll hear it, however I don't know if he does.

I'm aware that other motives don't render an activists cause illegitimate however it's a hell of a red flag. There's a lot of activists and movements flat-out lying to achieve their main goal which is not their stated goal. The lack of funding and work in the field of from activist groups is also a massive red flag.

This guy is just moving on to his next target and it's us.

Onto the next witch hunt ....

 

[gandaal]

no-one believes that.........

People believe that Bill Gates created the coronavirus so he could inject microscopic chips into people bodies and control their brains.

People are gullible.

 

[thylacine60]

and you worry what Q anon types think of your football club?

 

[gandaal]

and you worry what Q anon types think of your football club?

Q types aren't the only gullible ones. That's just one example.

 

[Metalcrusher]

and you worry what Q anon types think of your football club?

Christ you are jaded.

 

[thylacine60]

anyone buying into our club being racist because of this tenous link in our theme song ain't anyone I'd be giving time too..........

 

[SammaGilberto]

anyone buying into our club being racist because of this tenous link in our theme song ain't anyone I'd be giving time too..........

Hopefully one of our indigenous boys/girls can come out and nip it in the budd, I have never seen this raised by anyone but Mr. Hagan.

His point was fair enough for the cheese debacle but to actively bring light to a song written in the 1800s and then removed and re-written in 1920 is pointless, they dealt with it in 1920 when they removed the lyrics and then when Carlton started using the tune it gave the song a new life and most people associate it with Carlton, not with 1800s racism.

my opinion though.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Hopefully one of our indigenous boys/girls can come out and nip it in the budd, I have never seen this raised by anyone but Mr. Hagan.

His point was fair enough for the cheese debacle but to actively bring light to a song written in the 1800s and then removed and re-written in 1920 is pointless, they dealt with it in 1920 when they removed the lyrics and then when Carlton started using the tune it gave the song a new life and most people associate it with Carlton, not with 1800s racism.

my opinion though.

Nice diversion. I often use the phrase, "How good was Ringo!", in these circumstances.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

See, I'd thought about editing my post, to include the sentence that the final question was a sincere question, so I'll put it to you.

Who is this helping in contemporary Australia? How many people would be aware of the original lyrics to Lily of Laguna without Steve Hagan telling them first?

And if the past is racist, is ignoring it or pretending it didn't happen the right thing to do?

I had absolutely no idea, and there should be absolutely zero chance we should even give this a seconds thought about changing.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[teagueyubeauty]

I spoke to someone recently whose stand was that we are actually tampering with history and not allowing past indescretions to teach us today when we sanitize things retrospectively. This of course suits my purpose as far as loving my club's song goes. Just because people aren't aware of historic ugliness doesn't mean it needs stay that way though.

Nah mate, it’s PC gone completely mad


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[thylacine60]

no it isn't - that's just too simple an effort - no harm in discussing the issue without people being so defensive.......no-one's stealing your precious sports club