Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

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Stamos

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I like Williams - I think in the right game plan he, like a few other underperforming genuine A graders would be killing it.

He's got talent.
But he's unfit, not working hard enough, and put into a new, failing system. Started in a new position in a new team, and then shifted to a new, under siege area of the ground.

He might not have been the right pick, and he's almost certainly paid way too much, and needs to work a lot harder, but he's on a bit of a hiding to nothing.
 

BlackGoanna

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There are/were worse offenders of a lack of workrate this year.

Getting back to Brown's comments/analysis/footage regarding Williams in the GWS, it was nothing more than grandstanding, especially saying there were 100 (exaggeration I know) bits of footage, then not presenting any

What was shown was a collective, gameplan driven, instances of many players being out of position and or not working hard enough or smart enough to cover the counter

Agree, that it is partly about players not knowing specific role, where to run, team defence, etc... Just as much that it is really smart, motivated players not using there own initiative. At $800K a year defender (or whatever it is), I would have a expectation they have enough IQ, motivation to lead by example and not be subjected to this criticism. This is not just one instance, or match. this has been these entire season.

I do blame the club, hierarchy, coaching, game plan as much as our Senior players. They are all culpable is some way with the current plight of of season.
 
Mar 19, 2014
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You are correct, the actual footage they showed didn't make the point they were trying to make - apart from William's lack of relative leg speed

however I can recall numerous examples of Williams looking lost in defense and moving exactly the opposite to where he should be moving - the greater point being made was the ease by which GWS were allowed to transition the ball through the midfield- Whitfield literally running past 6 Carlton players jogging to nowhere in particular- happens week in week out-there is no systematic defensive movement or accountability - between teh zones transiitoning between attack and defense.

Another obvious issue that has been going on all year is our HFF allow their HBF to enter into center bounce area as outlets - they don't follow their man - they allow overlap running and easy exits - week in week out - another structural flaw in basic defensive systems - Carlton allow the opposition to create outnumbered situations all over the park- and this is partly effort and mostly system.

Another example they highlighted was the premature spread away from contests that the midfield is coached to employ - as soon as a Carlton player gets possession - everyone just turns their back and runs away to spread - which allows opposition defenses to close the contested area and block exits- because there are no nearby options - and this causes turnover after turnover - with Calton players running to nowhere whilst opposition players are all together and running tighter patterns and constantly outnumbering and out pressuring Carlton players when we do have possession!

The problem at Carlton is the same problem that has been there for over a year now - and that is pathetic structure and game style which plays into opposition hands. This is why the team looks like a bunch of individuals doing individual things- there is very little connection between the players and even less connect between the various areas of the ground.


For crying out loud - none of this is new news and yet despite all the resources/evidence/results/feedback, the current coaching setup seems to be oblivious to the obvious flaws in the way Carlton wants to play.

When amateurs sans the resources the Club has can comment with specific evidence-based certainty based on over 20 games worth of vision now- not one week or two weeks - it points to serious issues in the coaching box and even more serious issues with senior management leadership from head of football - who is supposed to make sure as an independent voice the same errors are not repeated over and over again - which points to serious issues about the management of the whole football department - starting from the CEO's call on who he picked to run the place.

The review is about formally addressing the obvious nonsense on display on the field week in week out and finding Hopefully the reasons why such an uncompetitive game plan has been allowed to be maintained.

Finally - the players' repetition of the same we need to get better/there are no single reasons/we need to put it all together is damning evidence that the system doesn't work - because the players themselves don't know how to fix things - they are at a loss.
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Same thing from week to week, it's soul destroying to watch, imagine how the players feel going out to play a game style that they have no confidence in.
 
He's got talent.
But he's unfit, not working hard enough, and put into a new, failing system. Started in a new position in a new team, and then shifted to a new, under siege area of the ground.

He might not have been the right pick, and he's almost certainly paid way too much, and needs to work a lot harder, but he's on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

Under Teague the following players have apparently regressed:

Cripps
Docherty
Ed Curnow
Jones
SPS
Gibbons
Newnes
Setterfield

Martin| Casboult have been played ( alongside Cripps) nowhere near 100% fit.

We are watching Ed Curnow being reinvented as a defender | Kennedy in the GWS game played HFF/wing and on ball, Setterfield has been destroyed on the wing ...I can go on...

Saad and Williams have come into an absolute rabble of a game plan - into a side that was spruiked by the CEO as a finals side - being coached by a bloke who isn't smart enough to figure out that finals sides have a balanced defensive and attacking game style.

I'm over blaming players- the facts don't speak to the issues being player's fault.
 

Blue Razor

Team Captain
Jun 3, 2015
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Sorry for the the upcoming rant.

Looking at the club I just see that everything is unbalanced.

The mixture of experience and inexperienced across the all the lines.
The list, the coaches and footy department.

We went through a massive rebuild of the list and only handful of young players are showing they are AFL standard at moment. Mckay, Weitering, Walsh, as examples
The senior players Betts, Casboult, Murphy, are all gone at season end.
Our mature talent Cripps, Doc, Williams, Saad, Martin, Jones are all struggling is some form at moment.
they also showing very weak leadership as well.

We wont have many experienced 28+ at club next year and we probably should target some with leadership qualities.
but who do you target? Cunnington, Kennedy (syd), Boak,
How are you going to convince these types to leave and come here.

Our coaching line is very weak.
Teague - Rookie coach, did his time as assistant at many clubs but strategy is very weak.
even our game plan is unbalanced with attack and defence
Barker - Gone
Amos - not a former AFL player, had success as Geelong VFL coach
Stanton - at least played AFL and midfield but very raw still
Bruce - has done some work at Hawks then came to us
Power - development coach
O'keefe - VFL making is way up

looking at his there are no senior assistant coaches.
there is no wise old head, or a mature former senior coach
at least under Bolton we had Neil Craig for 2 seasons.

if Teague was to stay there needs to be senior assistant coaches with a lot years behind them.
Those that set standards, provide strategies and tactics and support the senior coach.
these types Williams, Pyke, Roos, Lyon, Scott, Burns, Leppa, Voss

Our footy department

Brad Lloyd new to the role at a big Vic club with a CEO that likes to meddle with recruiting
Russel - the fitness Guru yet our players struggle to run out games and fall over in red time.
Liddle - new to the role, all about the memberships and financials which is his background
yet he got involved in recruiting and pissed off SOS.
List manager - first time list manager, spent a lot of the cap on 2 half back flankers
so far is draft seems to be good but we need more time on that.

across the lines there is just too many inexperienced people in important roles at the club
There is nothing wrong giving people a chance but there needs to be a balance.

I hope this external review highlights this and we get some experience in all the departments.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
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Under Teague the following players have apparently regressed:

Cripps
Docherty
Ed Curnow
Jones
SPS
Gibbons
Newnes
Setterfield

Can't agree with all these. Some progressed last year, and then regressed. Some are in a bit of a slump.
Not sure how Gibbons and Newnes have regressed? They're fringe players who have fluctuations in form.

But there are certainly issues with how all these players are playing, or are being played.
 
Nov 13, 2015
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Can't agree with all these. Some progressed last year, and then regressed. Some are in a bit of a slump.
Not sure how Gibbons and Newnes have regressed? They're fringe players who have fluctuations in form.

But there are certainly issues with how all these players are playing, or are being played.

Every single player has regressed under this gameplan, every one of them

As for Weitering, Walsh, H, perhaps their output could be debated that it might be better or higher

This is a list, should be a serious contender to have made the 8 this year

That's why my concerns are are not as dire as most on here, as with the right/appropriate gameplan, it will have a quick uplift
 
Can't agree with all these. Some progressed last year, and then regressed. Some are in a bit of a slump.
Not sure how Gibbons and Newnes have regressed? They're fringe players who have fluctuations in form.

But there are certainly issues with how all these players are playing, or are being played.

I said 'apparently' for a reason.

My considered view is that the coaches and their stupid game plan, silly selections, ridiculous positioning, make it impossible for players to play consistently - let alone at their best week in week out.
My view is also that players are playing as individuals not as a team - because the game plan is not a team-based game plan - it is schoolboy stuff - easily picked apart by other coaches - and makes our players look really bad.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
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I said 'apparently' for a reason.

My considered view is that the coaches and their stupid game plan, silly selections, ridiculous positioning, make it impossible for players to play consistently - let alone at their best week in week out.
My view is also that players are playing as individuals not as a team - because the game plan is not a team-based game plan - it is schoolboy stuff - easily picked apart by other coaches - and makes our players look really bad.

Can't argue with that
 

KnaveyBlue

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Aug 27, 2003
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Hopefully this makes people appreciate why Plowman is such an important member of our 22, and why he constantly finishes top 5 in our B&F.
Sadly, there are plenty here that will never get it.

We have 2 natural defenders in the whole backline - Plow and Weitering. The rest are attacking players we've shoehorned in there, which is why our backline structure completely falls apart when Plowman is out.

Wouldn't it be nice if one of our 'star' backmen in Doc, Saad, or Williams did the selfless thing and put their hand up to do a lockdown role with Plow out?

"Ok, Plowman's out, looks like someone has to hold the bag of s**t this week in his absence. I'm paid the big bucks, the responsibility should fall to me. Who do you want me to shut down?"

But do they? Nup. Nobody willing to sacrifice their game. It gets left to a kid who plays midfield.
 
Apr 4, 2018
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It really is depressing where we find ourselves in atm. Everyone else sees our footy problems except our footy department or we just don’t have enough smarts to sit down collectively and fix them.

How can Williams (not the only one) get away just having a walk whilst gws are attacking only 30 or 40 m away?? Apparently this happened in the first quarter so I don’t see being tired/overworked as an excuse. Do coaches/trainers assess/monitor the fitness of players during preseason?
 
Nov 27, 2016
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You are correct, the actual footage they showed didn't make the point they were trying to make - apart from William's lack of relative leg speed

however I can recall numerous examples of Williams looking lost in defense and moving exactly the opposite to where he should be moving - the greater point being made was the ease by which GWS were allowed to transition the ball through the midfield- Whitfield literally running past 6 Carlton players jogging to nowhere in particular- happens week in week out-there is no systematic defensive movement or accountability - between teh zones transiitoning between attack and defense.

Another obvious issue that has been going on all year is our HFF allow their HBF to enter into center bounce area as outlets - they don't follow their man - they allow overlap running and easy exits - week in week out - another structural flaw in basic defensive systems - Carlton allow the opposition to create outnumbered situations all over the park- and this is partly effort and mostly system.

Another example they highlighted was the premature spread away from contests that the midfield is coached to employ - as soon as a Carlton player gets possession - everyone just turns their back and runs away to spread - which allows opposition defenses to close the contested area and block exits- because there are no nearby options - and this causes turnover after turnover - with Calton players running to nowhere whilst opposition players are all together and running tighter patterns and constantly outnumbering and out pressuring Carlton players when we do have possession!

The problem at Carlton is the same problem that has been there for over a year now - and that is pathetic structure and game style which plays into opposition hands. This is why the team looks like a bunch of individuals doing individual things- there is very little connection between the players and even less connect between the various areas of the ground.


For crying out loud - none of this is new news and yet despite all the resources/evidence/results/feedback, the current coaching setup seems to be oblivious to the obvious flaws in the way Carlton wants to play.

When amateurs sans the resources the Club has can comment with specific evidence-based certainty based on over 20 games worth of vision now- not one week or two weeks - it points to serious issues in the coaching box and even more serious issues with senior management leadership from head of football - who is supposed to make sure as an independent voice the same errors are not repeated over and over again - which points to serious issues about the management of the whole football department - starting from the CEO's call on who he picked to run the place.

The review is about formally addressing the obvious nonsense on display on the field week in week out and finding Hopefully the reasons why such an uncompetitive game plan has been allowed to be maintained.

Finally - the players' repetition of the same we need to get better/there are no single reasons/we need to put it all together is damning evidence that the system doesn't work - because the players themselves don't know how to fix things - they are at a loss.
It's the obliviousness and the seeming rejection of reality in messaging from the coaching staff that concerns me the most.
 
May 1, 2016
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It really is depressing where we find ourselves in atm. Everyone else sees our footy problems except our footy department or we just don’t have enough smarts to sit down collectively and fix them.
Tis ever the case that, when beset with problems, everyone has the solution or thinks they could do it better.
How can Williams (not the only one) get away just having a walk whilst gws are attacking only 30 or 40 m away?? Apparently this happened in the first quarter so I don’t see being tired/overworked as an excuse. Do coaches/trainers assess/monitor the fitness of players during preseason?
Who knows?
 
Apr 4, 2018
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Tis ever the case that, when beset with problems, everyone has the solution or thinks they could do it better.

Who knows?
The solution doesn’t need to be a silver bullet. Incremental fixes here and there should be doable.
If coaches/players sit down in a room on a Monday and go through the replay and they all critic each play surely there would be some incremental improvement over time. It’s almost like we actually don’t do these types of reviews.
 
Nov 27, 2016
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It really is depressing where we find ourselves in atm. Everyone else sees our footy problems except our footy department or we just don’t have enough smarts to sit down collectively and fix them.

How can Williams (not the only one) get away just having a walk whilst gws are attacking only 30 or 40 m away?? Apparently this happened in the first quarter so I don’t see being tired/overworked as an excuse. Do coaches/trainers assess/monitor the fitness of players during preseason?
To be fair, he couldn't train with the group and got stuck in Echuca for the preseason. Shouldn't have played until fit though.
 

Triniboy

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I'd put it down to both, but much more so the coaching/game plan.

I think the real issue with players is the lack of motivation. It was clear as day to me on the weekend that Teague has definitely lost the players.

The running numbers are there, but the intent isn't. Those tackle numbers are a result of setup and positioning but also how many slip?

But there's nowhere to hide for Williams. I've seen enough, in fact I'd seen enough way earlier in the season to know he wasn't anywhere near as fit as he needed to be.
no competitive sportsperson goes into a contest with thought of losing front of mind unless you’re a cricketer from the sub-continent....our insipid performances sit squarely with the development/coaching staff...blind Freddy can see the players are simply not interested...Teague cannot distance himself from what’s reality, there is no option than to move him on.
 

agro

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Teams have been playing through Docherty since last season.

The reason we moved him to the wing a few weeks back was that we finally recognised it too.

I was prepared to give him last year as leave pass but this year he hasn’t really come back to anywhere near his pre-injury/illness level.

Unfortunately it looks like the injuries/illness has caught right up with Doch - needs to go back twos to find his mojo.

Speaks volumes that Cripps and Weitering were put before the media rather than Docherty.
 
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I think that piece of footage is used because 6 players are goal side of whitfield at the stoppage. When Whitfield reappears downfield to link up, none are goal side. Not one.

They suggested that none came for him. Some were never going to, and were in fact running with opponents, trusting in teammates close by to stop Whitfield. Their point remains valid but they had no need to embellish to make it. But media ...
 
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