Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[thylacine60]

Hewett was exactly the kind of player we needed.

Come on!

 

[AndyLucimitis]

If you are laughing at our midfield rating by McGuane wait for the facepalm moment for what he’s ranked our forward line... * is way ahead.

I couldn't believe that when I saw it. Basically he ranks Stringer/Wright over Curnow and Harry.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I couldn't believe that when I saw it. Basically he ranks Stringer/Wright over Curnow and Harry.

Well... Over the last 2 seasons as a duo they probably are in front.... Cause they've been on the field. Everyone knows Charlies talented, extremely so, no ones gonna go out and say they 'ARE' a good duo up front until they've seen Charlie come back successfully from his injury and stay in the team.

I don't understand the hating on the media and where they're ranking us. The exposed talent is all they're going off and it's been utterly shite for us for years. Potential means shit, it's time the guys in the team actually start delivering on potential.

Then the media will acknowledge them. Until then, they wont and why the **** should they?

 

[DangerousD]

were they meant to be?

I would think that 4 first round draft picks and a second, we would have been expecting them to be a lot further developed than they are, specially Setters and Kennedy.

 

[JustaBattler]

Simple but very accurate

We have no one like Hewett on the list

If Dusty plays round 1, Hewett is the perfect match up, through the middle and when Dusty is resting foward

Just watched round one again from last year ...

Teague had Walsh up against Martin - Setterfield on a wing or HBF ( who knows Setterfield certainly didn't know what he was doing) , Fisher/SPS and Dow spudding it up and turning it over with every possession and Fogarty a couple of good tackles with his introductory regulation 25 metre miss in front of goals. Take Cripps/Walsh and Ed Curnow out of the side and we had NOTHING - those three blokes were doing the work of a full midfield plus bench rotations...

Gibbo played a blinder and combined well all over the field as did Saad who killed em all over the place.

Cerra and Hewett pickups was a masterstroke.

 

[Osc1]

Just watched round one again from last year ...

Teague had Walsh up against Martin - Setterfield on a wing or HBF ( who knows Setterfield certainly didn't know what he was doing) , Fisher/SPS and Dow spudding it up and turning it over with every possession and Fogarty a couple of good tackles with his introductory regulation 25 metre miss in front of goals. Take Cripps/Walsh and Ed Curnow out of the side and we had NOTHING - those three blokes were doing the work of a full midfield plus bench rotations...

Gibbo played a blinder and combined well all over the field as did Saad who killed em all over the place.

Cerra and Hewett pickups was a masterstroke.

The lid’s off if we knock ‘em off Round 1

 

[JustaBattler]

The lid’s off if we knock ‘em off Round 1

If Walsh was playing I reckon we do 'em good and proper - now less confident...Walsh is the everywhere man...cleaning up plodder's mess-ups everywhere...

IF Dow /Fisher/Setterfield haven't improved by 50% at least by the end of the year - they can all join SPS somewhere else...FMD what a shambles of a midfield Cripps/Ed/Walsh have had to carry.

 

[Red_man2008]

Simple but very accurate

We have no one like Hewett on the list

After starting as a mid size forward, progressed to playing that "Ling" like tagging role but could still win the pill.

Disposal on both sides is extremely underrated, like his game sense and awareness. Has elite endurance

Can also play as a defender

If Dusty plays round 1, Hewett is the perfect match up, through the middle and when Dusty is resting foward

He should end up being our jack Steele. Jack started being a tagged and then went on to continue getting own pill. Taggers who can do this are very valuable. Think Curnow in 2018/19. However better with disposal.

Hewett will be the steal of the trade period.

 

[F_therest]

If Walsh was playing I reckon we do 'em good and proper - now less confident...Walsh is the everywhere man...cleaning up plodder's mess-ups everywhere...

IF Dow /Fisher/Setterfield haven't improved by 50% at least by the end of the year - they can all join SPS somewhere else...FMD what a shambles of a midfield Cripps/Ed/Walsh have had to carry.

The sad thing is the high draft picks we've invested in our midfield, for little return.

SPS - Pick 6
Setterfield - Pick 5
Dow - Pick 3
Fisher - Pick 25

Still have hopes for LOB but so far he's been a bust for a pick 10, Sam Philp doesn't really look that close to the senior team and he was pick 20.
Stocker pick 19 but playing defence, though he's been pretty good.

 

[ferrisb]

The sad thing is the high draft picks we've invested in our midfield, for little return.

SPS - Pick 6
Setterfield - Pick 5
Dow - Pick 3
Fisher - Pick 25

Still have hopes for LOB but so far he's been a bust for a pick 10, Sam Philp doesn't really look that close to the senior team and he was pick 20.
Stocker pick 19 but playing defence, though he's been pretty good.

Setterfield didn't cost us pick 5. He only cost us a 2nd rounder and downgrading of 3rd rounder to 4th rounder.

But your point still stands. That's a lot of wasted/as yet unfulfilled draft capital.

 

[RPCB]

Setterfield didn't cost us pick 5. He only cost us a 2nd rounder and downgrading of 3rd rounder to 4th rounder.

But your point still stands. That's a lot of wasted/as yet unfulfilled draft capital.

Will Setterfield was drafted at Pick 5 by GSW, that wasn’t the cost to Carlton in the trade.

 

[haveago]

The lid’s off if we knock ‘em off Round 1

We have a lid?

 

[RPCB]

We have a lid?

And it wouldn’t come off even if we beat Richmond. Give it several weeks of good wins and I will get excited.

We beat Geelong in 2020, they finished top 4 and made the Grand Final.

 

[JustaBattler]

The sad thing is the high draft picks we've invested in our midfield, for little return.

SPS - Pick 6
Setterfield - Pick 5
Dow - Pick 3
Fisher - Pick 25

Still have hopes for LOB but so far he's been a bust for a pick 10, Sam Philp doesn't really look that close to the senior team and he was pick 20.
Stocker pick 19 but playing defence, though he's been pretty good.

I think it is a 50/50 situation - poor Club environment for these blokes to come into - and maybe a bit of selection error -as well...
will be interesting to see how they all go in clean air and better team mates around them - when they do play AFL.

 

[kingkingston]

The sad thing is the high draft picks we've invested in our midfield, for little return.

SPS - Pick 6
Setterfield - Pick 5
Dow - Pick 3
Fisher - Pick 25

Still have hopes for LOB but so far he's been a bust for a pick 10, Sam Philp doesn't really look that close to the senior team and he was pick 20.
Stocker pick 19 but playing defence, though he's been pretty good.

We didn't draft Setterfield............Dow will be good, need patience. Fisher got taken out of his wing and they thought he could be a forward

 

[Gethelred]

The Dopers have cut Ronald Fejo from their SSP tryout list. I reckon we should have a look at him, either as a potential SSP selection, or to sign him to our VFL team. He could be a real excitement machine.

Very short for a midfielder. Would be interested as a VFL selection; agility and ballwinning are always handy.

 

[F_therest]

Setterfield didn't cost us pick 5. He only cost us a 2nd rounder and downgrading of 3rd rounder to 4th rounder.

But your point still stands. That's a lot of wasted/as yet unfulfilled draft capital.

Ya true.

Not everyone can be Walsh, but none of our other high pick mids since the rebuild in 2015 have made it...thats pretty damning.

Hence we still rely on a lower output Cripps and needed new recruits in Cerra and Hewett.

Just need a few of those high picks to lift and we would have a strong midfield for once.

Like if Dow and LOB could produce similar to Butters and Duursma our midfield would be stacked.

 

[JustaBattler]

Ya true.

Not everyone can be Walsh, but none of our other high pick mids since the rebuild in 2015 have made it...thats pretty damning.

Hence we still rely on a lower output Cripps and needed new recruits in Cerra and Hewett.

Just need a few of those high picks to lift and we would have a strong midfield for once.

Like if Dow and LOB could produce similar to Butters and Duursma our midfield would be stacked.

Cripps is going to be a much better player for having Cerra/Hewett and Walsh around him - poor bloke was trying to do it all much too often because there was no one he could dish off to with any confidence apart from Walsh last year. We need Kennedy/Dow/Setterfield to be good enough to give blokes a rest as required and able to halve their contests in doing so if not win some...I'm confident about Kennedy's ability to play a role - and hopeful Dow develops some skill to go with his so called burst running - but he comes across as a pretty dumb footballer to me and very very easily gets lost.

Lob is a different case - specifically drafted to play wing - but a slow developing body was not up to the rigours of physical contact required of an AFL midfielder - still looks less developed than typical AFL body but has the kicking skill required to penetrate forward arc and running ability to at least match it with opposition. It is the running ability that wingmen need to have that stops blokes like Martin/Fisher/Williams and maybe Kemp from playing there FT - and why blokes like Cottrell and Newnes were played so often - neither is a particularly good exponent of penetrating or accurate kicks, unfortunately. I see people putting Docherty on a wing - and if his running ability is still there it may work maybe not.

Good coaches play to actually team strengths and try and minimise weaknesses - so a direct through the middle style might take the pressure off the wing - and anyway through the guts is the type of grind football required of finals teams - can't pretend to play a Teague type fast spread game and hope to blow teams away when your defensive capability and turnover stats are as bad as Carlton's were.

For round 1 given the outs - I expect to see a pretty stacked hard bodied midfield line-up - Richmond might have to concern themselves with winning ball against Cripps/Hewett/Kennedy/Ed combo and doing a lot more close in contested work than what was forced on them last year- which wasn't much. Fisher and Dow might be the rotations for a bit of spark - but they better stick their tackles and not be turnover merchants - Fisher could make a huge difference if he is able to hold a genuine midfield spot - has the footwork to make space but I worry about his very narrow field of view.

I reckon field position between teh arcs will be very important - Carlton needs to play more forward of center to make Harry and Charlie led forward line dangerous and accessible from a one kick scenario - winning a fair share of center bounces and not conceding turnovers like we did last year- will be the #1 KPI I'd be looking at - as well as bringing Saad/Williams into play as straight running receivers - off the back - like all the better teams do.

 

[Beyond Blue]

We didn't draft Setterfield............Dow will be good, need patience. Fisher got taken out of his wing and they thought he could be a forward

Dow is into season number 5 and is out of contract at the end of the year so the time for him to perform has arrived and I doubt there is much more patience in store for him. As I've said a few times if he was drafted 23 or 33 instead of 3 and served up what he has over the past 4 seasons I doubt many would be calling for patience.

 

[katmanblue]

We have a lid?

Nah, blue sky mine. Been digging since 2001.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Garters]

Ya true.

Not everyone can be Walsh, but none of our other high pick mids since the rebuild in 2015 have made it...thats pretty damning.

Hence we still rely on a lower output Cripps and needed new recruits in Cerra and Hewett.

Just need a few of those high picks to lift and we would have a strong midfield for once.

Like if Dow and LOB could produce similar to Butters and Duursma our midfield would be stacked.

It's pretty damning what we haven't achieved with our top 15 draft selections since the rebuild bar Harry, Walsh and Wieterbot. It's the reason we are still where we are. Hopefully it's just a slow wheel turning. If it's not and Dow, Lob, Fisher, Cunningham, Charlie (injury) etal don't come good it's going to continue to be a slow climb, as you continue back filling gaps Hewitt and Cerra style created by early poor draft choices / stalled progress that requires delisting.

Hope im wrong and they all turn on a 10 cent piece and develop into silk this season 2022... stranger things have happened I guess. (I haven't remortgaged the house and put it all on a top 8 finish just yet)

Buy the rumour sell the fact, at this stage I've stopped being a seller of the fact, but am not yet a buyer of the rumour. Hope to be, but not yet.

 

[jjsmitty8]

Here's a link to his Blueseum page. Invited to train with the u19s side.





Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club | Anthony Koutoufides

Thanks for that! Just had a read, so was that normal for the time that a player could just progress through the u19’s and reserves and just step into the senior side despite the draft being around?

 

[F_therest]

Cripps is going to be a much better player for having Cerra/Hewett and Walsh around him - poor bloke was trying to do it all much too often because there was no one he could dish off to with any confidence apart from Walsh last year. We need Kennedy/Dow/Setterfield to be good enough to give blokes a rest as required and able to halve their contests in doing so if not win some...I'm confident about Kennedy's ability to play a role - and hopeful Dow develops some skill to go with his so called burst running - but he comes across as a pretty dumb footballer to me and very very easily gets lost.

Lob is a different case - specifically drafted to play wing - but a slow developing body was not up to the rigours of physical contact required of an AFL midfielder - still looks less developed than typical AFL body but has the kicking skill required to penetrate forward arc and running ability to at least match it with opposition. It is the running ability that wingmen need to have that stops blokes like Martin/Fisher/Williams and maybe Kemp from playing there FT - and why blokes like Cottrell and Newnes were played so often - neither is a particularly good exponent of penetrating or accurate kicks, unfortunately. I see people putting Docherty on a wing - and if his running ability is still there it may work maybe not.

Good coaches play to actually team strengths and try and minimise weaknesses - so a direct through the middle style might take the pressure off the wing - and anyway through the guts is the type of grind football required of finals teams - can't pretend to play a Teague type fast spread game and hope to blow teams away when your defensive capability and turnover stats are as bad as Carlton's were.

For round 1 given the outs - I expect to see a pretty stacked hard bodied midfield line-up - Richmond might have to concern themselves with winning ball against Cripps/Hewett/Kennedy/Ed combo and doing a lot more close in contested work than what was forced on them last year- which wasn't much. Fisher and Dow might be the rotations for a bit of spark - but they better stick their tackles and not be turnover merchants - Fisher could make a huge difference if he is able to hold a genuine midfield spot - has the footwork to make space but I worry about his very narrow field of view.

I reckon field position between teh arcs will be very important - Carlton needs to play more forward of center to make Harry and Charlie led forward line dangerous and accessible from a one kick scenario - winning a fair share of center bounces and not conceding turnovers like we did last year- will be the #1 KPI I'd be looking at - as well as bringing Saad/Williams into play as straight running receivers - off the back - like all the better teams do.

Nice points.

About playing to our strengths, I think with our list we should follow Melbourne's lead somewhat...I see similar players/styles.

We have a lot of 'big bodied' mids on the slow side...not a lot of burst. Melbourne's midfield was led by Oliver and Petracca mainly, with support from guys like Viney. Now Petracca has some burst, but those 3 are known more for being tough mids more than their speed. They concentrated on winning it at the source, and it sounds like Voss is planning on the same for us. At their best, Cripps & Walsh are just as good as Oliver & Petracca...arguably better, although they really did dominate this year.

On the back of their strong midfield, Lever and May were able to mop up in defence and be brick walls. Weitering is an absolute gun at intercept marking, Jones would have been handy in this regard. Hopefully McGovern can play the intercept role like his brother/Lever...he's got good hands and leap, though he's new to defence. Marchbank is another good third tall, but there's not much point counting him as an option unfortunately these days. Parks actually showed something in this role.

Up forward, Melbourne made 3 talls work - Brown, McDonald and Jackson. They are all very mobile for their height which was key. Charlie & McKay are mobile and supremely talented. Then JSOS I think is capable for a third tall.

The area we are really lacking vs Melb is ruck given Gawn is a star, plus second ruck with Jackson. Melb's mids often get first use whereas ours probably won't. The other is probably small/medium forward. Fritsch, Spargo and Pickett are more proven than anyone we have and ANB had a resurgence...though Martin has shown immense ability he just needs to put it all together, while Honey/Durdin/Motlop have promise but still young.

For small defenders, I think on paper ours are actually better when you look at names like Saad, Williams, Docherty and Stocker. Whether they can play at their best and in an effective system though is the question.

 

[Doro]

Thanks for that! Just had a read, so was that normal for the time that a player could just progress through the u19’s and reserves and just step into the senior side despite the draft being around?

The u19s were being phased out, with the TAC comp starting in 1992. If you look at the early years of the draft it was mostly a wipe out- the elite pathway was still via the old metro and country zones via the under 19s. Carlton had the old Northern Knights zone where Kouta and Christou were invited down to try out.

 

[JustaBattler]

Nice points.

About playing to our strengths, I think with our list we should follow Melbourne's lead somewhat...I see similar players/styles.

We have a lot of 'big bodied' mids on the slow side...not a lot of burst. Melbourne's midfield was led by Oliver and Petracca mainly, with support from guys like Viney. Now Petracca has some burst, but those 3 are known more for being tough mids more than their speed. They concentrated on winning it at the source, and it sounds like Voss is planning on the same for us. At their best, Cripps & Walsh are just as good as Oliver & Petracca...arguably better, although they really did dominate this year.

On the back of their strong midfield, Lever and May were able to mop up in defence and be brick walls. Weitering is an absolute gun at intercept marking, Jones would have been handy in this regard. Hopefully McGovern can play the intercept role like his brother/Lever...he's got good hands and leap, though he's new to defence. Marchbank is another good third tall, but there's not much point counting him as an option unfortunately these days. Parks actually showed something in this role.

Up forward, Melbourne made 3 talls work - Brown, McDonald and Jackson. They are all very mobile for their height which was key. Charlie & McKay are mobile and supremely talented. Then JSOS I think is capable for a third tall.

The area we are really lacking vs Melb is ruck given Gawn is a star, plus second ruck with Jackson. Melb's mids often get first use whereas ours probably won't. The other is probably small/medium forward. Fritsch, Spargo and Pickett are more proven than anyone we have and ANB had a resurgence...though Martin has shown immense ability he just needs to put it all together, while Honey/Durdin/Motlop have promise but still young.

For small defenders, I think on paper ours are actually better when you look at names like Saad, Williams, Docherty and Stocker. Whether they can play at their best and in an effective system though is the question.

Melbourne have a better midfield which has played together for a few years now - they have a good defence based on midfield dominance as much as one on one capability - their rebound system is very effective as they have two proven wingmen and as you say their forward line is very cohesive.

Carlton needs to develop a game plan/style get the right mix of players executing it effectively and do some time as a developing team - a lot of the ingredients are there in terms of players - but they are ingredients atm - the coaches are still inventing the recipe.

Making finals is one thing - actually being drilled well enough and having every position required to beat the contenders is another.

We are looking for a second KPP defender a couple of wingmen as opposed to part-timers, a developed ruck combination that can play in a couple of positions and 2-3 mids who can play for 4 quarters and be relied on not to hand the ball back to the opposition every time they get possession.

As the whole coaching panel has stated throughout the pre-season- there is a lot of work to do.