Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

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4flagsin5yrs

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Mature is fine if the output of those players remains high/consistent and we have younger talent to replace the deteriorating output, retirements or they purely surpass the above players.

Apart from the spine, we are in a strong position list wise
Certainly need to find a replacement KPD for Jones as a priority....time to go shopping.

Still surprised they didn't persevere with Macreadie given they also chopped Goddard and BSOS.
 

4flagsin5yrs

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We’ll be a very mature team with ages this season (age within 2021), 16 players possibly rnd 1 lining up 25th+ year
35yo Betts
34yo Murphy
32yo Curnow
31yo Casboult

30yo Jones
28yo Docherty, Newnes, Newman
27yo Plowman, Saad, Williams, McGovern
26yo Cripps, Martin, Gibbons
25yo Pittonet (Marchbank & late b’day)
Being a tad harsh, and I am fan of most of these guys, but you could omit quite a few from our 'best' 22 and it would matter little....

That makes the age profile a lot more youthful.

I know Ed C was 3rd again (or 4th in 2019?) but really? If someone can't supplant ;) him in short order, we are really going nowhere in hurry.

Clearly, we need a young KPD (Jones replacement), a fill in (mature?) ruckman/swingman (kind of a Levi replacement) and we're all good.

It does show that our window is (beginning) now - we just need some of the younger blokes to become consistent, regular contributors. As they say, it's your bottom handful (of the 22) that determine the outcome...
 

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JustaBattler

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he doesn’t do a lot wrong ..... replaced,repotted, with who I wonder?
I was going to ask the same question ...in a more pointed fashion...but I've mellowed

btw - why dont you arrange for McGovern to go back to WA - starting to look like the biggest tease on the list as well as a waste of time - Teaguey would be fuming I imagine.
 

The Bighouse

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Being a tad harsh, and I am fan of most of these guys, but you could omit quite a few from our 'best' 22 and it would matter little....

That makes the age profile a lot more youthful.

I know Ed C was 3rd again (or 4th in 2019?) but really? If someone can't supplant ;) him in short order, we are really going nowhere in hurry.

Clearly, we need a young KPD (Jones replacement), a fill in (mature?) ruckman/swingman (kind of a Levi replacement) and we're all good.

It does show that our window is (beginning) now - we just need some of the younger blokes to become consistent, regular contributors. As they say, it's your bottom handful (of the 22) that determine the outcome...
As will be a chosen (& preferred type) by the MC for round 1 IMO.
We only have 5 younger <24yo players on the auto queue, handy #1 & 2 in the B&F in Weiters, Walsh + McKay, Charlie (inj), Setterfield, SPS & looking like Z.Fisher this year along with TDK when fit and possibly Fogarty impressing.

The rest are yet to thrust themselves as trusted selections by the DT lead MC over the mature body & mind AFL players.
In saying that, majority of our list should be AFL ready now at 3yrs+ in.
 

teddy-hopkins

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We need a big group from the U25s pushing some of the over 25s out of the team. Not just playing but pushing into AA calculations.

We'll play finals if these guys are all AA squad (they're clearly capable):

Cripps
Walsh
Weitering
McKay
Williams
Saad
Docherty
Martin

That should be the expectation for them. Not just being solid but becoming stars of the comp.

And I agree guys like Ed, Newnes and Plow need to be superseded by younger, faster, more skilled, properly elite players. No disrespect to those 3 mentioned but the top end of their talent is gutsy toiler and not in the AA calculations. For the record I love Ed in particular but just being honest.
 

carlton_99

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We need a big group from the U25s pushing some of the over 25s out of the team. Not just playing but pushing into AA calculations.

We'll play finals if these guys are all AA squad (they're clearly capable):

Cripps
Walsh
Weitering
McKay
Williams
Saad
Docherty
Martin

That should be the expectation for them. Not just being solid but becoming stars of the comp.

And I agree guys like Ed, Newnes and Plow need to be superseded by younger, faster, more skilled, properly elite players. No disrespect to those 3 mentioned but the top end of their talent is gutsy toiler and not in the AA calculations. For the record I love Ed in particular but just being honest.
Eight players from the same team in the AA squad of 40 is highly unlikely.
 

BlueBlood15

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We need a big group from the U25s pushing some of the over 25s out of the team. Not just playing but pushing into AA calculations.

We'll play finals if these guys are all AA squad (they're clearly capable):

Cripps
Walsh
Weitering
McKay
Williams
Saad
Docherty
Martin

That should be the expectation for them. Not just being solid but becoming stars of the comp.

And I agree guys like Ed, Newnes and Plow need to be superseded by younger, faster, more skilled, properly elite players. No disrespect to those 3 mentioned but the top end of their talent is gutsy toiler and not in the AA calculations. For the record I love Ed in particular but just being honest.
The time has now come for the players from the 2015 and 2016 drafts to take ownership and drive this club forward. Weitering, Harry, Charlie, Cunners, JSOS, Kennedy, SPS, Fisher, Setters and Willo. These guys will be turning 23-24 this year. They’ve been in the system for 4-5 years. They should no longer be seen as “development players”. That’s not to say that they don’t have development left - pretty much every player under 25 does, but it’s no longer a valid reason for not performing. These guys need to play like senior footballers.

Taking Charlie out of the equation as he’s injured, Weitering is really the only one to establish himself as a bona fide week in, week out A grade performer. Harry is on the precipice and IMO ready to explode. The time is now for him to kick 40+ goals and lead this forward line. He’s got it in him. Cunners needs to find greater consistency when he plays. He’s got damaging half forward with burst spurts through the middle in him. JSOS needs to kick 20 goals if he plays forward.

Fisher’s pre-season has apparently been fantastic as a small forward and it’s time for him to own the number one small forward role. Has 25+ goals in him and it’s time to deliver. SPS needs to develop consistency. We know his best can be in our top few on his day but his worst can also be in our bottom few on a bad day. Has talent in spades but now it’s time to play more good games than bad ones. Setters developed nicely last year. Can he become a 20+ touches per game midfielder? We need more accumulators. I think he’s absolutely got it in him. Then there’s Willo who IMO had a really positive comeback year last year. The challenge in now to step that up and become a consistently damaging player.

The talent is there. A lot of the development has been done. Now it’s time for these guys to drive us forward. I appreciate that not all of these guys will come on as we’d like but the time is now for the majority of them to step up. I believe most of them have it in them. The time is now
 

Jeremias

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He had consistent tentative moments through the entire season and was often pushed off the footy or found avoiding contact which lead to him halving contests he should be winning or making skill errors because he's not body lining the ball. It's been a real weakness of his and the reason Teague hasn't given him midfield time. You just can't be like that and play midfield, that's a given. The one big change Teague made from Bolton's coaching was to put the more physical players into the middle to make us competitive and that's why he's been in defence. He's in that role for a reason, he has not been good enough for it or physical enough for it and we have had enough who have.
He did and I acknowledged there were a few instances that didn't look great.

You're completely guessing though as to that being the reason he's not being played in the midfield now. Suggesting he's at half back because he can't play midfield is just silly.

What a player does as a junior is irrelevant, if they don't do it at senior level then it doesn't matter. You just hope that they can take their junior achievements into the AFL some day and SPS has not done that yet. SPS may have been a bull in the U18s but his attack on the footy at AFL level hasn't been up to scratch. I'm not concerned yet as he's young and developing and making progress in this area of his game and I am sure when he's got this up to a good level Teague will give him midfield time but he has to do this first and that's up to him to demonstrate to the coaches that his attack on the contest and his physicality are ready for the midfield at AFL level.
Did you have concerns over his physicality as a midfielder in his first few seasons? I don't recall any instances of him looking tentative in that role, certainly none come to mind as they do from what we saw in 2020.

Do you recall any specific instances or are you simply making things up to suit your argument?

If you want to see SPS in the middle then that's up to him. We need to see those moments where he's holding back and sidestepping before he's got to the footy go and see some genuine physical grunt from him, when we see that then we will see him go into the middle. You need to have a group in there who are willing to bullock and hit bodies and make the physical contest their own or those better teams are going to torch you out of the center and around the stoppages and it won't matter how skilled we are we won't have it, that happened early in the season against Melbourne and Teague did a good job patching up that weakness.
I don't particularly care where he plays. I'm not specifically advocating for him to move back into the middle. I'll gladly accept him playing wherever the coaching staff think he's of most value to the side even if it's to the detriment of his own stats or performances.

I'm just calling out your initial post which was erroneous, as is your follow up.

What position or role you play has nothing to do with how you go about playing, a guy who holds back a bit is going to in any position whereas a guy who goes at it like Kade Simpson will do so in any position. I wouldn't call it soft, even though it is a little, I would call it immature. His game and his body have not matured yet and that's something we need to be patient with and wait for. The coaches will make it happen if it is to happen.
The funny thing about the Simpson reference is that he too moved from the midfield to a defensive post through his career. I wonder if you thought it was because he was soft?

Or perhaps it's an acknowledgement of the player being better utilized elsewhere...

Cuningham's attack on the contest is pretty well below par but it's mostly a lack of physical strength with him. You compare him to a Newnes and it's chalk and cheese. Cuningham's biggest weakness is he's a one way runner. He provides very little defensive pressure and in today's game you can't get away with that. He needs to chase and tackle a hell of a lot more. Those missing moments are from that. If the ball isn't coming your way and you aren't finding it you have to impact the game in other ways and get yourself into the game and he doesn't do that.
Cool, but that's a completely different argument to him being soft which is what I responded to. He's not.

He's a massive talent but wildly inconsistent and I don't believe he's a natural footballer.

We can't blame the coach for not playing players where we would like them to be played, he's doing it for a reason. It's up to those players to go up a level. We won't be trying experimental things this season unless things get bad. Players will have to earn their place in the 22 and their position on the field by playing well and playing how they need to play.
Again, I'm not complaining about SPS playing half back or Cuningham playing half forward. I don't particularly care where they're named on the team sheet.

You've gone off on a complete tangent.
 

4flagsin5yrs

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As will be a chosen (& preferred type) by the MC for round 1 IMO.
We only have 5 younger <24yo players on the auto queue, handy #1 & 2 in the B&F in Weiters, Walsh + McKay, Charlie (inj), Setterfield, SPS & looking like Z.Fisher this year along with TDK when fit and possibly Fogarty impressing.

The rest are yet to thrust themselves as trusted selections by the DT lead MC over the mature body & mind AFL players.
In saying that, majority of our list should be AFL ready now at 3yrs+ in.
I wasn't for a second suggesting Ed won't be pushed out for Rd 1... :straining::straining:

Just the bloke's 33 next year, and by then I'd prefer Clayton Oliver in his spot!
 

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gbatman

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He did and I acknowledged there were a few instances that didn't look great.

You're completely guessing though as to that being the reason he's not being played in the midfield now. Suggesting he's at half back because he can't play midfield is just silly.



Did you have concerns over his physicality as a midfielder in his first few seasons? I don't recall any instances of him looking tentative in that role, certainly none come to mind as they do from what we saw in 2020.

Do you recall any specific instances or are you simply making things up to suit your argument?



I don't particularly care where he plays. I'm not specifically advocating for him to move back into the middle. I'll gladly accept him playing wherever the coaching staff think he's of most value to the side even if it's to the detriment of his own stats or performances.

I'm just calling out your initial post which was erroneous, as is your follow up.



The funny thing about the Simpson reference is that he too moved from the midfield to a defensive post through his career. I wonder if you thought it was because he was soft?

Or perhaps it's an acknowledgement of the player being better utilized elsewhere...



Cool, but that's a completely different argument to him being soft which is what I responded to. He's not.

He's a massive talent but wildly inconsistent and I don't believe he's a natural footballer.



Again, I'm not complaining about SPS playing half back or Cuningham playing half forward. I don't particularly care where they're named on the team sheet.

You've gone off on a complete tangent.
I am guessing that that is why he is not being played in the middle but it's pretty obvious. He's gone for more grunt around the ball. It's clear that that is what Teague wants and that has been seen with many other players who have been moved out of the on ball group over the year, they all have the same weaknesses, not hard enough at the contest. Murphy was a prime example, he put in some shockers and was banished from the center for a while but he worked his way back to get some onball time back in there. Bolton was playing SPS and Dow in the middle and they were poor. That was easy to see, they have not been near enough ready to take on that role.

Yes I did, however he looked just like any other raw young player with a heap of development to do to get his game up to scratch so I wasn't concerned about it. He wasn't going to develop being left in the middle and getting thrashed both physically and on the scoreboard week in week out. Teague put him in a position that he could play. He earned that spot by performing well enough and he is good enough where he can develop in the seniors which is good but he has not got his game to a level where he is good enough to play in the midfield yet.

More than a few instances where his attack at the contest has not been at a good enough level, happens quite frequently, most times when challenged by someone who is committing to the contest harder than he is. He's getting better which is good but not to the level where I am thinking "hey he looks like he could play midfield". A role where when you have to go you have to go or your team gets torched. One game sticks in my mind, we were dominating The Suns and he was on the last line of defence, we have very few passengers that day and he had a fair game numbers wise but there were plenty of occasions where the ball got past him and it shouldn't have and the only reason it was because they gold coast players were attacking the footy and he was clearly intimidated by that.

Simpson has always been one of the hardest at the contest I have seen in my time. I remember watching a practice match at Princes Park many years ago and everyone was in 2nd gear but not Simpson, he was playing like it was a grand final. If you had a team as committed as him we would win the flag this season with the talent we have. It's obvious why he was moved to defence. Because he got older and it's easier on the body playing in the backline than it is playing in the midfield. Also he was exceptionally good at it and we needed to bolster our defences during a tough period. Simpson could have been kept on the wing but he was more valuable in defence and it prolonged his career.

Inconsistency comes from having some things but not others. For example you're a tough nut but lack skills or you're a very skilled player but lack physicality or you're a good footballer but lack the fitness or you're an athlete but lack the football skills and awareness. Nearly all the mediocre players you see fit into that category, they have some good qualities and that's why they have the odd day out but they have some significant things missing from their game.

Cuningham has some good qualities such as his speed and his skills but the rest is missing. His awareness is probably not the best, what he does when the opposition have the ball is completely missing and his contested work is below average. I can see him going up a level, all our players are capable of that but if he doesn't I can see him missing out. Someone like Durdin or Fogarty are going to come in with speed, football skills and have a defensive impact.

Cuningham will have a lot of competition this season and he's going to have to add to his game and find improvement there, same with SPS. He probably didn't have a lot of competition for his spot once Newman went down and he's going to have to solidify that before he's stepping up to playing harder positions because so far he hasn't reached that level yet. I expect that he might, he's coming into an age where he should be hitting his straps and maturing as a footballer.

Time will tell, players should be improving and competition for spots should be getting greater.

One thing SOS has done is draft players with talent, they have all had something, it just comes down to whether they can mature and add to and improve their game and guys like SPS and Cuningham fit that category perfect and I'll be taking a very keen interest to see whether they have added to their game.

If we see a no questions attack on the contest from SPS we will see him play midfield. If we see defensive pressure from Cuningham we will see a talented player who is able to keep themselves in the game and keep impacting and he will probably earn his spot in the 22 and perhaps part time it through the midfield at times but it has to happen, it hasn't been happening for them yet but it's going to have to for them to take their games forward.
 

Macca43

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Best you re-read the exchange
Nope got it the first time, just don’t understand the logic.

By my count we had Newman, Marchbank, Silvagni and Fisher who played less than half the season last year and could have impacted the amount of games Newnes played if fit last year. Throw in Dow and Stocker who were also unavailable for selection for significant periods last year and could have impacted Newnes number of games and you are up to 6, rather than 1 or 2, players who have returned from injury to put pressure on Newnes spot.

if you then include this years recruits (nearly all of whom play a position that could impact Newnes) and allow for the impact of actually having a reserves competition this year and the competition for Newnes spot is massively higher this year than last.
 

Arr0w

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Nope got it the first time, just don’t understand the logic.

By my count we had Newman, Marchbank, Silvagni and Fisher who played less than half the season last year and could have impacted the amount of games Newnes played if fit last year. Throw in Dow and Stocker who were also unavailable for selection for significant periods last year and could have impacted Newnes number of games and you are up to 6, rather than 1 or 2, players who have returned from injury to put pressure on Newnes spot.

if you then include this years recruits (nearly all of whom play a position that could impact Newnes) and allow for the impact of actually having a reserves competition this year and the competition for Newnes spot is massively higher this year than last.
Wonderful in theory.

Jack is probably competing with Gov. Fisher will surpass Betts. Newnan and Marchbank competing for a spot.

As I have stated, lets assess it end of year, just like last year when you didn't have Gibbo or Newnes best 22 and we all know how that turned out.
 

Ash24

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BigBreakfast

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Being a tad harsh, and I am fan of most of these guys, but you could omit quite a few from our 'best' 22 and it would matter little....

That makes the age profile a lot more youthful.

I know Ed C was 3rd again (or 4th in 2019?) but really? If someone can't supplant ;) him in short order, we are really going nowhere in hurry.

Clearly, we need a young KPD (Jones replacement), a fill in (mature?) ruckman/swingman (kind of a Levi replacement) and we're all good.

It does show that our window is (beginning) now - we just need some of the younger blokes to become consistent, regular contributors. As they say, it's your bottom handful (of the 22) that determine the outcome...
Do we have to do the Ed thing again?
 

BigBreakfast

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We need a big group from the U25s pushing some of the over 25s out of the team. Not just playing but pushing into AA calculations.

We'll play finals if these guys are all AA squad (they're clearly capable):

Cripps
Walsh
Weitering
McKay
Williams
Saad
Docherty
Martin

That should be the expectation for them. Not just being solid but becoming stars of the comp.

And I agree guys like Ed, Newnes and Plow need to be superseded by younger, faster, more skilled, properly elite players. No disrespect to those 3 mentioned but the top end of their talent is gutsy toiler and not in the AA calculations. For the record I love Ed in particular but just being honest.
You don’t think premiership teams need gutsy toilers? Guess the love rest is over for some of these blokes!!!
 

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