Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

[Stamos]

Sure, improve the aspects of the gameplan you want to run with, but you still need the skill set in player characteristics

Do you think we can improve the fundamentals of Fogarty to run faster and kick beyond 50, rather than 40? No

Teach Newman to kick on his right, Ollie to put on 10 kilos, Walsh the same, Ben Campo to kick Sicily, Lewis Young to mark like Casboult

It sounds like you’re deliberately misinterpreting my point.

We do the fundamentals really badly.
And 18 months ago, we were in a prelim.
9 rounds ago, we were 2nd on the ladder, after 18 games.

We have the talent to be successful. If we sharpened up our basics we’d get there a hell of a lot quicker than waiting to draft or trade in some elite kicks.
And any game plan you try is going to work better when you nail the fundamentals first.

 

[Arr0w]

It sounds like you’re deliberately misinterpreting my point.

I'm merely pointing out some of the cherry picking

We do the fundamentals really badly.
And 18 months ago, we were in a prelim.
9 rounds ago, we were 2nd on the ladder, after 18 games.

To me this is a contradiction, did we always do these so called fundamentals poorly, even when we were winning games

We have the talent to be successful

We have a list to be more consistent, but it's never been a lock as a too 4 side

. If we sharpened up our basics we’d get there a hell of a lot quicker than waiting to draft or trade in some elite kicks. And any game plan you try is going to work better when you nail the fundamentals first.

I'm still wondering and confused, where all this rhetoric has come from in regards to this, basics and fundamentals


It feels a tad clickbait

 

[Stamos]

To me this is a contradiction, did we always do these so called fundamentals poorly, even when we were winning games

I'm still wondering and confused, where all this rhetoric has come from in regards to this, basics and fundamentals

When we were playing well, we’d use the first option more, but generally, in comparison to our talent, it’s been poor for a long time.

The ‘rhetoric’ is because we’re bad at it.
Meanwhile, successful clubs have acknowledged a focus on it. McRae stating it’s the most important thing when they won the flag, not game plan. Very recently in the media both Simpson and Mitchell saying it’s the most important thing.

And yet we bad at it.

And I’ve never heard Voss say it’s a focus.
Maybe that’s just coincidence?

 

[Arr0w]

When we were playing well, we’d use the first option more, but generally, in comparison to our talent, it’s been poor for a long time.

The ‘rhetoric’ is because we’re bad at it.
Meanwhile, successful clubs have acknowledged a focus on it. McRae stating it’s the most important thing when they won the flag, not game plan. Very recently in the media both Simpson and Mitchell saying it’s the most important thing.

And yet we bad at it.

And I’ve never heard Voss say it’s a focus.
Maybe that’s just coincidence?

So did the Pies stray away from these basics and fundamentals last year

Which clubs do these so called basics and fundamentals which don't and why don't they

Get the feeling it's a win/loss clickbait analysis

 

[Stamos]

So did the Pies stray away from these basics and fundamentals last year

Which clubs do these so called basics and fundamentals which don't and why don't they

Get the feeling it's a win/loss clickbait analysis

No, the Pies just don’t have a great list.
But their coach gets the best out of them.

It’s not win loss clickbait at all.
West Coast have been terrible recently to the point that Simpson lost his job.
But he’s a premiership winning coach, who knows that the fundamentals are the most important thing, should be the focus of 80% of your training, and that we’re bad at them.

 

[Arr0w]

No, the Pies just don’t have a great list.
But their coach gets the best out of them.

It’s not win loss clickbait at all.
West Coast have been terrible recently to the point that Simpson lost his job.
But he’s a premiership winning coach, who knows that the fundamentals are the most important thing, should be the focus of 80% of your training, and that we’re bad at them.

I still don't understand how you or anyone else would know which clubs train or don't train these, basics and fundamentals

And now we have attached a percentage to it

Anyway, everyone has a different perspective I guess

 

[Michael Jezz]

No, the Pies just don’t have a great list.
But their coach gets the best out of them.

It’s not win loss clickbait at all.
West Coast have been terrible recently to the point that Simpson lost his job.
But he’s a premiership winning coach, who knows that the fundamentals are the most important thing, should be the focus of 80% of your training, and that we’re bad at them.

Pies best 25 way better than Carlton's
Pies way ahead in basic skill levels

 

[Stamos]

I still don't understand how you or anyone else would know which clubs train or don't train these, basics and fundamentals

And now we have attached a percentage to it

Anyway, everyone has a different perspective I guess

The percentages were Simpson’s quote on SEN which I linked in the media thread.

We don’t know exactly.
What we do know is that some coaches publicly state how important they consider it.
And that we’re really bad at them.

 

[Arr0w]

The percentages were Simpson’s quote on SEN which I linked in the media thread.

Okay, so it's Simpson's mantra, but he has no idea as to what 17 other clubs do

We don’t know exactly.
What we do know is that some coaches publicly state how important they consider it.

okay, based on whats stated publicly

And that we’re really bad at them.

Not sure we'll know, if we go on a run of wins

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Pies best 25 way better than Carlton's
Pies way ahead in basic skill levels

Pies regularly have players like Cox, McCreery, Schultz, Quaynor, Markov, McInnes, Frampton, Long, Harrison, Perryman, Membrey, Mcstay and Dean playing in their 1st side.

Plenty of spuds in there but they just have a far more balanced side and a better system.

If you compare them to a team like Brisbane, GWS, GCS, Freo etc they are considerably worse on paper imo and I suspect that will become evident as the year rolls on.

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

I still don't understand how you or anyone else would know which clubs train or don't train these, basics and fundamentals

And now we have attached a percentage to it

Anyway, everyone has a different perspective I guess

Just because you possess skills doesn’t mean you don’t need to continue to hone them to keep them. Pretty basic logic I think. A professional golfer practices the fundamentals every day to keep them in order. Grip, set up, alignment etc. I don’t see how a professional footballer’s training should be any different. This is a coaches responsibility.

 

[katmanblue]

To me this is a contradiction, did we always do these so called fundamentals poorly, even when we were winning games

Yes.

From SOS, Charlie and H with their suspect goal kicking and decision making. To Doch, Walsh Cripps and the rest with them consistently missing targets constantly and consistently.

Handballs going to grass and behind a runner.

Not defending stoppage properly in d50.

Not sticking tackles. Not sticking up for a teammate that gets dropped.

Some of those things have improved marginally over the last couple of years but mostly it's been a sine wave.

On SM-F946B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[dylan_mike1]

It sounds like you’re deliberately misinterpreting my point.

We do the fundamentals really badly.
And 18 months ago, we were in a prelim.
9 rounds ago, we were 2nd on the ladder, after 18 games.

We have the talent to be successful. If we sharpened up our basics we’d get there a hell of a lot quicker than waiting to draft or trade in some elite kicks.
And any game plan you try is going to work better when you nail the fundamentals first.

I know what you mean. Clean it up with more focused work. Stuff like get in specialist kicking coach to work on players mechanics. Bring in someone who actually knows how to teach it.Sure a shit kick may never be elite, but can certainly be sharpened.

Carlton’s got too many players who blaze away or panic and many times Carlton's poor kicking isn't because the players lack talent, it's because they've developed bad habits over time:

Things such as:

• Poor ball drop
• Kicking off-balance
• No follow-through
• Eyes up too early
• Rushing disposals
• Tackling
• Not balancing when kicking
• Kicking under unnecessary pressure
• Ignoring short or better options
• One-footed balance
• Flat-footed disposal
• Inconsistent technique
• Overkicking, long bombing.
• Scanning for options


A lot of these are all learned behaviours, not necessarily permanent flaws in skill level. All fixable to a degree. But only if the club makes it a priority.

On SM-S928B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Michael Jezz]

Pies regularly have players like Cox, McCreery, Schultz, Quaynor, Markov, McInnes, Frampton, Long, Harrison, Perryman, Membrey, Mcstay and Dean playing in their 1st side.

Plenty of spuds in there but they just have a far more balanced side and a better system.

If you compare them to a team like Brisbane, GWS, GCS, Freo etc they are considerably worse on paper imo and I suspect that will become evident as the year rolls on.

Markov is crap and is a walk up start if at Carlton

 

[incaciawin]

I know what you mean. Clean it up with more focused work. Stuff like get in specialist kicking coach to work on players mechanics. Bring in someone who actually knows how to teach it.Sure a shit kick may never be elite, but can certainly be sharpened.

Carlton’s got too many players who blaze away or panic and many times Carlton's poor kicking isn't because the players lack talent, it's because they've developed bad habits over time:

Things such as:

• Poor ball drop
• Kicking off-balance
• No follow-through
• Eyes up too early
• Rushing disposals
• Tackling
• Not balancing when kicking
• Kicking under unnecessary pressure
• Ignoring short or better options
• One-footed balance
• Flat-footed disposal
• Inconsistent technique
• Overkicking, long bombing.
• Scanning for options


A lot of these are all learned behaviours, not necessarily permanent flaws in skill level. All fixable to a degree. But only if the club makes it a priority.

On SM-S928B using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think it really is up to the individual to work on their basic skills to become the best version of themselves. The club can only do so much.Too many of our players cannot execute the 20-40m kick under pressure to an acceptable level. Steele Sidebottom at the ripe old age of 34 was showing our guys up with his elite kicking on both sides of his body on Thursday night.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Pies regularly have players like Cox, McCreery, Schultz, Quaynor, Markov, McInnes, Frampton, Long, Harrison, Perryman, Membrey, Mcstay and Dean playing in their 1st side.

Plenty of spuds in there but they just have a far more balanced side and a better system.

If you compare them to a team like Brisbane, GWS, GCS, Freo etc they are considerably worse on paper imo and I suspect that will become evident as the year rolls on.

Most of those players you have mentioned would get a game for Carlton. Maybe only Long and Harrison wouldn’t IMO.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Most of those players you have mentioned would get a game for Carlton. Maybe only Long and Harrison wouldn’t IMO.

And plenty of ours would get a game for Collingwood along with plenty of other teams

 

[Beyond Blue]

And plenty of ours would get a game for Collingwood along with plenty of other teams

Of course. We have a very good top 12 but after that it falls off a cliff far quicker than most other clubs, and there lies the main problem, the list is woefully unbalanced so we don’t have enough quality. As result a result opposition clubs can hone in our taking away our strengths and then we are left with not much. Key possessions and moments fall to our players 13-23 who are very rarely able to execute.

 

[Jatz]

Whateley: “So, what if they’re just no good?”
Buckley: “Well, they are not.
“They’re not. Footy is a hard game, and one thing that is abundantly evident is that they just don’t have the legs.
“They can’t cover the ground fast enough or long enough.
“The game is too long, and the game is too fast for Carlton at the moment.
“That is not a good position to be in.”

Put this quote on the board in the change rooms please...

Why? He's absolutely right haha. I'm not sure being reminded will make them run any faster.

 

[goreds]

Why? He's absolutely right haha. I'm not sure being reminded will make them run any faster.

Not sure it's about 'how fast' someone is, more about the speed of ball movement.

Drop the poor kickers in the team and bring in better ones (and I'm not talking about kicking percentages, more about risk takers that can execute the high reward kick). Give our forwards a chance 1-on-1.

 

[Arr0w]

Not sure it's about 'how fast' someone is, more about the speed of ball movement.

Drop the poor kickers in the team and bring in better ones (and I'm not talking about kicking percentages, more about risk takers that can execute the high reward kick). Give our forwards a chance 1-on-1.

It's both, and hurts more when we don't have the pill trying to chase tail

 

[Blue since 72]

Not sure it's about 'how fast' someone is, more about the speed of ball movement.

Drop the poor kickers in the team and bring in better ones (and I'm not talking about kicking percentages, more about risk takers that can execute the high reward kick). Give our forwards a chance 1-on-1.

Pretty much.

Poor decisions, poor execution (both these things lead to turnovers and chasing a lot of turnovers is very tiring, we turned it over 10 more times than the Pies), switching off (has been plenty of footage to confirm this), lack of trust in team mates, too many at the contest which stifles any run from the contest should we win it.

Do agree with the body, mind and spirit comment re some players but don't agree with the "can't run fast enough for long enough", The above things I mentioned manifest this result, don't believe it's about a lack of fitness or speed overall.

 

[agro]

Don’t think a lake, campfire, some beers and a few nudie runs is gonna cut it this time.

 

[Gavstar]

Whateley: “So, what if they’re just no good?”
Buckley: “Well, they are not.
“They’re not. Footy is a hard game, and one thing that is abundantly evident is that they just don’t have the legs.
“They can’t cover the ground fast enough or long enough.
“The game is too long, and the game is too fast for Carlton at the moment.
“That is not a good position to be in.”

Put this quote on the board in the change rooms please...

Similar discussion on On The Couch also points out those not going in when the turn comes.

 

[branedotorg]

Don’t think a lake, campfire, some beers and a few nudie runs ain’t gonna cut it this time.

This is a double negative. Is your contention:
-I think a lake etc
-I don't think a lake etc